Southern Class 455 Withdrawal

[Gerald Fiennes]

I'm not sure I quite get the nostalgia for 455s other than to relive one's childhood (which I totally understand...!). They are big, heavy things with leaf doors protected by steel panels that restrict the views from the train and make the interiors seems gloomy. They have ponderous acceleration although I guess if you have a thing for EE DC motors, you still love them. They were the traditional DMEE's revenge in the mid-80s for the the daring team behind the PEP unit, creating a traditional heavy rail car where aluminium would (at the time) been the better options: vide the 465s/466s.

And the SN ones are in moderately poor interior condition now, their seat moquettes now not very attractive to sit on (call me a traditionalist, although I fully understand that in Sarf London we obviously prefer to jump on the seats and make merry mischief for to amuse our fellow travellers, I actually prefer to sit on them!)

Bring it on, let's get the Electrostars in PDQ!

 

[physics34]

I'm not sure I quite get the nostalgia for 455s other than to relive one's childhood (which I totally understand...!). They are big, heavy things with leaf doors protected by steel panels that restrict the views from the train and make the interiors seems gloomy. They have ponderous acceleration although I guess if you have a thing for EE DC motors, you still love them. They were the traditional DMEE's revenge in the mid-80s for the the daring team behind the PEP unit, creating a traditional heavy rail car where aluminium would (at the time) been the better options: vide the 465s/466s.

And the SN ones are in moderately poor interior condition now, their seat moquettes now not very attractive to sit on (call me a traditionalist, although I fully understand that in Sarf London we obviously prefer to jump on the seats and make merry mischief for to amuse our fellow travellers, I actually prefer to sit on them!)

Bring it on, let's get the Electrostars in PDQ!

Simple answer for the poor interior of the southern 455s.... BLOODY CLEAN THEM. Really poor that they trundle around like that when a steam cleaner and a mop would make them sparkle

 

[contrex]

Which Victoria - Sutton as there have been many permutations over the years?

I once read (maybe on here) a remark that someone's pal who worked at Victoria Power Box knew of 30 different ways to get from Victoria to Sutton, and after that I kept myself awake trying to list them all in my head. I think I got up to about 22.

 

[Southern Dvr]

What I would say about reduction in capacity is that with climate change being a topic everyone is aware of, the costs of diesel and petrol and the green credentials of using an electric railway, it is rather important that we provide comfortable trains with ample space for people to travel in. Otherwise we are clearly not taking the green agenda seriously. Whether they involves the use of a plethora of Electrostar carriages or carriages built by BREL is not really the issue. The issue is we have built it, now we need to make the people come [back again]!

 

[317 forever]

Assume the 455s are still very prominent on both weekdays and weekends on both the tat and caterham branches? Or do 377/6s do these?

It's the 313s not the 455s that I'd describe as tat.

There have been considerable service reductions, in train length if not frequencies, through home working and public transport usage hesitation for so many trains to be withdrawn in many cases without replacement.

SWR were able to send some 707s to South Eastern and withdraw 456s even before the 701s have come into service. Hence the withdrawal/storage of some 465s. Meanwhile South Eastern will soon have some spare 377/5s. Now Southern are set to withdraw 455s, evidently without equivalent numbers of replacement units arriving.

 

[Southern Dvr]

It's the 313s not the 455s that I'd describe as tat.

There have been considerable service reductions, in train length if not frequencies, through home working and public transport usage hesitation for so many trains to be withdrawn in many cases without replacement.

SWR were able to send some 707s to South Eastern and withdraw 456s even before the 701s have come into service. Hence the withdrawal/storage of some 465s. Meanwhile South Eastern will soon have some spare 377/5s. Now Southern are set to withdraw 455s, evidently without equivalent numbers of replacement units arriving.

With respect, this isn’t entirely accurate. Southeastern’s spare 377s will be transferred to Southern. Maintained at Selhurst already along with the two Class 377/1 units used by Southeastern I’ll be a pedant here and point out that my understanding was the units have always southern units that have been subleased to Southeastern. They are to be replaced I gather (unconfirmed) by the stored 465/2 units that will be sent back ‘home’.

The withdrawal of 456s and transfer of 707s was brought about by service reductions and the removal of 10 car suburban operation. However SWR are frequently reporting short formations.

With regards Coastway services it is entirely possible the Class 377/3 units could go back to Coastway duties as it would be a 3 car unit replacing a 3 car unit and with the exception of a Beckenham Jnc working in Metroland they are nearly all used as part of 3+3+4 formations.

 

[FOH]

The May timetable detail isn’t out yet.

Top level management conference last Thursday was where the news about 455s broke.

I guess maybe this is the real reason there was an acute shortage of planners on GTR after Christmas...

 

[Goldfish62]

I'm not sure I quite get the nostalgia for 455s other than to relive one's childhood (which I totally understand...!). They are big, heavy things with leaf doors protected by steel panels that restrict the views from the train and make the interiors seems gloomy. They have ponderous acceleration although I guess if you have a thing for EE DC motors, you still love them. They were the traditional DMEE's revenge in the mid-80s for the the daring team behind the PEP unit, creating a traditional heavy rail car where aluminium would (at the time) been the better options: vide the 465s/466s.

Bring it on, let's get the Electrostars in PDQ!

Yes, the 455s were a poorly built retrograde design.

 

[physics34]

Yes, the 455s were a poorly built retrograde design.

They incorporated a good proven design in the mk3 coach. Im assuming the rigs were already built and available which would speed up the building process. The use of steel instead of aluminium is a bit puzzling...that has probably stopped them from running on the coast.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Yes, the 455s were a poorly built retrograde design.

AIUI they were built fairly rapidly to replace the aging 4Subs on the former SWD, using many old parts (e.g. compressors) and when the 508s were moved north, there was a further urgent need for new suburban stock. The design was in line with Class 317's at the time

Retrograde design or not, they have lasted the best part of 40 years....

 

[Jturner98]

Big question is will one survive into preservation? Hopefully yes, although it will probably only be a DTS like the 317. Don’t know what would be a good candidate though. Probably a 455/8 from SWR probably because it still has its original gangway. By the way are these still usable by the public when the units are in multiple?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Big question is will one survive into preservation? Hopefully yes, although it will probably only be a DTS like the 317. Don’t know what would be a good candidate though. Probably a 455/8 from SWR probably because it still has its original gangway. By the way are these still usable by the public when the units are in multiple?

No, so it’s largely pointless keeping them.

 

[urpert]

I'm not sure I quite get the nostalgia for 455s other than to relive one's childhood (which I totally understand...!). They are big, heavy things with leaf doors protected by steel panels that restrict the views from the train and make the interiors seems gloomy. They have ponderous acceleration although I guess if you have a thing for EE DC motors, you still love them. They were the traditional DMEE's revenge in the mid-80s for the the daring team behind the PEP unit, creating a traditional heavy rail car where aluminium would (at the time) been the better options: vide the 465s/466s.

And the SN ones are in moderately poor interior condition now, their seat moquettes now not very attractive to sit on (call me a traditionalist, although I fully understand that in Sarf London we obviously prefer to jump on the seats and make merry mischief for to amuse our fellow travellers, I actually prefer to sit on them!)

Bring it on, let's get the Electrostars in PDQ!

As someone who spent a lot of time on them in NSE days I have to agree. The low-back seats always made them feel like austerity units (at the time, the contrast with the high-tech Networker derived stock was like night and day - funnily enough, the 455s are now the trains that feel more modern inside thanks to some care actually being taken of them!)

 

[JonathanH]

Probably a 455/8 from SWR probably because it still has its original gangway. By the way are these still usable by the public when the units are in multiple?

No, inter unit gangways never usable by the public on 455s because there are some operational features which can't be locked away. The inter-unit gangways on the Southern ones were removed to allow cab air conditioning to be fitted (and because they were unnecessary) although it has left a hideous looking front end.

More here https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...h-western-railway.148717/page-71#post-4855398

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The inter-unit gangways on the Southern ones were removed to allow cab air conditioning to be fitted (and because they were unnecessary) although it has left a hideous looking front end.

I actually think the Southern units look considerably tidier, compared to the SWR ones with the brown gangways and dripping pipes. Same goes for the interior, purely because SWRs are full of shiny silver metal that makes you feel as though you’re travelling in a tin can.

 

[MatthewRead]

So what will be the date for the last one in passenger service?
Will it be at the same time the 315's are withdrawn from TFL Rail and when the 317's are withdrawn from Greater Anglia?

 

[Turtle]

No, inter unit gangways never usable by the public on 455s because there are some operational features which can't be locked away. The inter-unit gangways on the Southern ones were removed to allow cab air conditioning to be fitted (and because they were unnecessary) although it has left a hideous looking front end.

More here https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...h-western-railway.148717/page-71#post-4855398

Personally, I think the Southern front ends are more attractive than the South Western; a more "completed" appearance.

 

[JonathanH]

So what will be the date for the last one in passenger service?

If what is being discussed in this thread means there will be a run down in the use of 455s to none in the May timetable, the last day of Southern 455s is going to be Friday 13 May or Saturday 14 May. It was pointed out above that four are already on restricted use so the run down is already underway.

Will it be at the same time the 315's are withdrawn from TFL Rail and when the 317's are withdrawn from Greater Anglia?

They are not connected events. The 315s appear to be connected to the availability of 345s and through running to the tunnel from Shenfield. The 317s appear to be dependant on introduction of 720s and whether the ability to run 8 car trains on West Anglia services continues to be needed until double 720s can run.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

All relative. The 455's were hideous when new compared to the nice 'sleek' designs of the Sub and EPB units they replaced.

 

[Class 466]

Especially as the 313s require guards, whereas the 377s only need an OBS. So cut down the number of 313 operated services means they can save on crew. How long before the Eastbourne - Ashford is cut back to Hastings (again) to save on crew (in the mindset of the DfT penny counters) (with a 377 picking up the calls)

Just means the longer distance services get slower & busier as they have to pick up the calls at the likes of East Worthing, and some passengers might decide they will rather use the bus as it might be slower they have a better chance of being able to board.

Given the guards for the Marshlink are based in Eastbourne, it would only save on one unit and not on crews at all if you curtailed it at Hastings.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Feb 2022 ==

With respect, this isn’t entirely accurate. Southeastern’s spare 377s will be transferred to Southern. Maintained at Selhurst already along with the two Class 377/1 units used by Southeastern I’ll be a pedant here and point out that my understanding was the units have always southern units that have been subleased to Southeastern. They are to be replaced I gather (unconfirmed) by the stored 465/2 units that will be sent back ‘home’.

The withdrawal of 456s and transfer of 707s was brought about by service reductions and the removal of 10 car suburban operation. However SWR are frequently reporting short formations.

With regards Coastway services it is entirely possible the Class 377/3 units could go back to Coastway duties as it would be a 3 car unit replacing a 3 car unit and with the exception of a Beckenham Jnc working in Metroland they are nearly all used as part of 3+3+4 formations.

465/2s aren’t coming back to Southeastern. Rather no more 465s are going into store when the plan was for more to go once the 12 other 707s arrive from SWR.

 

[Razorblades]

They incorporated a good proven design in the mk3 coach. Im assuming the rigs were already built and available which would speed up the building process.

I think you refer to the bodyshell jigs. In fact this wasn't an advantage, as Derby was in the midst of the HST build programme and the 455s were constructed at York, which back then was run very much independently of its East Midlands counterpart.

 

[brad465]

465/2s aren’t coming back to Southeastern. Rather no more 465s are going into store when the plan was for more to go once the 12 other 707s arrive from SWR.

Is this subtle confirmation that SE's 377s are going back to Southern?

 

[physics34]

I think you refer to the bodyshell jigs. In fact this wasn't an advantage, as Derby was in the midst of the HST build programme and the 455s were constructed at York, which back then was run very much independently of its East Midlands counterpart.

Thanks for clarification

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Given the guards for the Marshlink are based in Eastbourne, it would only save on one unit and not on crews at all if you curtailed it at Hastings.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Feb 2022 ==


465/2s aren’t coming back to Southeastern. Rather no more 465s are going into store when the plan was for more to go once the 12 other 707s arrive from SWR.

I was going to say, the 465/2s are in an awful state. They did return some of the withdrawn Networkers from other subclasses a few months ago.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Just OT, but no other thread, if the 377/5's go to Southern, what will replace them on the Maidstone East line?

 

[brad465]

Just OT, but no other thread, if the 377/5's go to Southern, what will replace them on the Maidstone East line?

I would imagine a return to what the line had before 377s were on it, a mixture of 465s and 375s (there already are a few 375 allocations alongside 377s). However there would be capacity reductions in this case as 465/466s are limited to 6 carriages as far as Ashford (and 4 carriages to Canterbury West all stations). It may also be possible that 375s get largely diverted to the Maidstone East line so 465s don't use it so much, which means the latter gets more workings on other routes. All this also depends on what timetable frequency exists in future.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I would imagine a return to what the line had before 377s were on it, a mixture of 465s and 375s (there already are a few 375 allocations alongside 377s). However there would be capacity reductions in this case as 465/466s are limited to 6 carriages as far as Ashford (and 4 carriages to Canterbury West all stations). It may also be possible that 375s get largely diverted to the Maidstone East line so 465s don't use it so much, which means the latter gets more workings on other routes. All this also depends on what timetable frequency exists in future.

Thanks. Maybe I'll start a new thread on this and the mods can move this conversation over

 

[Class 466]

Is this subtle confirmation that SE's 377s are going back to Southern?

Saw this posted elsewhere “377163/164 will return to Southern from Southeastern in April, more (but not all) may follow at a later date.”

 

[Mikey C]

I would imagine a return to what the line had before 377s were on it, a mixture of 465s and 375s (there already are a few 375 allocations alongside 377s). However there would be capacity reductions in this case as 465/466s are limited to 6 carriages as far as Ashford (and 4 carriages to Canterbury West all stations). It may also be possible that 375s get largely diverted to the Maidstone East line so 465s don't use it so much, which means the latter gets more workings on other routes. All this also depends on what timetable frequency exists in future.

Rather than 377s being returned from Southeastern to indirectly replace the inner suburban 455s, wouldn't it make more sense for Southern to actually take some actual inner suburban trains to use on inner suburban routes, such as the Networkers, 376s or 707s?

Yes there's extra complication for driver training and maintenance etc, but that way south London has metro stock on its routes, while Kent has mainline trains on its routes, not 465/9s...

 

[Goldfish62]

Rather than 377s being returned from Southeastern to indirectly replace the inner suburban 455s, wouldn't it make more sense for Southern to actually take some actual inner suburban trains to use on inner suburban routes, such as the Networkers, 376s or 707s?

Yes there's extra complication for driver training and maintenance etc, but that way south London has metro stock on its routes, while Kent has mainline trains on its routes, not 465/9s...

Why? Southern has been using 377s on inner suburban routes for years.