Southern Class 377/6 1st class?

[SPADTrap]

This was not intended as a joke but rather as an observation of an effect of declassification of First Class seating, especially as applies to Ashford-Brighton services where other trains on the Hastings-Brighton section normally have non-declassified First Class seating.

If you are taking exception to the use of the expression 'riff-raff' I point out that, whilst this is may be a pejorative term, in carrying the meaning of 'disreputable or undesirable people' it captures those members of society that I intended. Such people, whatever the PC description of them may be, are to be found travelling on trains and add little to the pleasure of rail travel.

My intention was merely to make an observation on the effect of declassification on the travel experience of First Class ticket holders. I understand the motives of Southern in effecting this declassification and was pointing out some of the downsides of their decision. If you drew amusement from my posting I am not offended.

No, it was the first class "democratic institution" bit that had me! :razz:

Reminds me of a student trying to hit their word count in an essay

 

[Philip C]

No, it was the first class "democratic institution" bit that had me! :razz:

Reminds me of a student trying to hit their word count in an essay

Ah! I see!

 

[southern442]

First Class is definitely declassified in practice - if not always very clearly on paper - on all routes via Leatherhead, as well as most but not absolutely 100% of those starting and finishing within the zones. For example, there are one or two London Bridge - East Croydon services which run semi-fast and have First Class available.

It is indeed a minefield and the only way to be sure is to check timetables, or Realtime Trains, which is usually very accurate except on the WLL.

EDIT: The above refers to Southern-branded routes only. Obviously I am being highly pedantic here, as this thread is all about Southern, but just in case someone misinterprets it...

Perhaps we can say that all routes that use 455's in normal service have first class declassified. This includes routes such as the Tattenham, Dorking and Horsham fasts that are essentially, in practice, mainline routes but the fact that they operate mainly in suburbia and because they have good connections with other metro routes justifies their metro classification, as well as justifying the use of 455's and no first class.

 

[387star]

Hoping to clear up two things

Firstly I heard the reason there is 2+2 seating with lots of tables in the leading and trailing coach of each 377/2, 377/4 377/5 and later 377/1s is because this whole area was originally intended as First Class... surely this isn't true as that would be massive over provision? I do note since the recent refresh the standard seats no longer have velcro for antimacassars. It also seems the 377/1 and 377/2 do not have a privacy screen in this coach or a dividing door and plug points in the First Class section. Originally the First class upholstery in the 377/4s was a different pattern (still evident on 377/5s) but interestingly changed to the standard design on the refresh

Secondly why is it certain refreshed 377/1s have dark blue rather than sky blue side panels? It was said this was in error but is it not because the heater grills on said units are also a dark blue so to blend in as on later units the grills are grey

Finally it was interesting to note the overhead luggage racks are glass only in First Class on 377/4s and 377/5s never noticed that before...

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Hoping to clear up two things

Firstly I heard the reason there is 2+2 seating with lots of tables in the leading and trailing coach of each 377/2, 377/4 377/5 and later 377/1s is because this whole area was originally intended as First Class... surely this isn't true as that would be massive over provision? .

Slightly OT here but the 375/6's (and 375/3's I think) on SouthEastern had an entire driving carriage devoted to First Class when first introduced....

 

[physics34]

Hoping to clear up two things

Firstly I heard the reason there is 2+2 seating with lots of tables in the leading and trailing coach of each 377/2, 377/4 377/5 and later 377/1s is because this whole area was originally intended as First Class... surely this isn't true as that would be massive over provision? I do note since the recent refresh the standard seats no longer have velcro for antimacassars. It also seems the 377/1 and 377/2 do not have a privacy screen in this coach or a dividing door and plug points in the First Class section. Originally the First class upholstery in the 377/4s was a different pattern (still evident on 377/5s) but interestingly changed to the standard design on the refresh

Secondly why is it certain refreshed 377/1s have dark blue rather than sky blue side panels? It was said this was in error but is it not because the heater grills on said units are also a dark blue so to blend in as on later units the grills are grey

Finally it was interesting to note the overhead luggage racks are glass only in First Class on 377/4s and 377/5s never noticed that before...

I believe Connex at the time of ordering the first 377s really didnt know whether to keep 1st class or not.

It seems the next batch of orders were being built when Connex lost the franchise to South Central and there was time to alter then internal panels and seat covers to SOuth Centrals spec. Then the later 377/4s were ordered late enough for First class internal door to be fitted.


When the 377s were refreshed, there was an error with the order of the panels for the early 377/1s and 377/3s...and they came back dark blue again rather than light blue.

 

[387star]

I believe Connex at the time of ordering the first 377s really didnt know whether to keep 1st class or not.

It seems the next batch of orders were being built when Connex lost the franchise to South Central and there was time to alter then internal panels and seat covers to SOuth Centrals spec. Then the later 377/4s were ordered late enough for First class internal door to be fitted.


When the 377s were refreshed, there was an error with the order of the panels for the early 377/1s and 377/3s...and they came back dark blue again rather than light blue.

but that makes no sense. You're saying this 'error' was not spotted till almost half the 377/1s had been treated?

 

[physics34]

but that makes no sense. You're saying this 'error' was not spotted till almost half the 377/1s had been treated?

i assume so..... ! Maybe the new panels and grilles were made way in advance.

 

[JonathanH]

Slightly OT here but the 375/6's (and 375/3's I think) on SouthEastern had an entire driving carriage devoted to First Class when first introduced....

The idea was that you could have one full coach of first class in a 8 or 12 car train, so on the way into London for a peak journey, someone would put the antimacassars out in one carriage of the train and this would be the area for first class on the service back out.

I think that you would then not have first class on off-peak services because all seats were intended to be of 'first-class standard'.

Unfortunately, the concept didn't work in conjunction with the joining and splitting of trains down the line. It also seems to represent a labour-intensive way of setting things up. Therefore, first class ended up being in the two areas behind the driver.

The area which is now first class on the 375/6 fleet is easily the best laid out area on those units.

The layout on the Southern units has something to do with the fact that trains were often formed of a VEP (3+2) and a CIG (2+2) and capacity would be seriously reduced if the units were 2+2 throughout.

 

[eAi]

This is a bit of a bump, but perhaps better than starting a new thread.

I emailed Southern to ask them about First Class on Metro services and got this answer:

No you are incorrect in thinking any customer can use First Class on Metro train services.

You must have purchased a First Class ticket.

The only time a customer may use these seats is if 'First Class' has been de-classified for that specific train.

The customers will always be notified if this is the case on the train they are boarding and are not to presume de-classification if not given specific instruction.​

 

[southern442]

No you are incorrect in thinking any customer can use First Class on Metro train services.

You must have purchased a First Class ticket.

The only time a customer may use these seats is if 'First Class' has been de-classified for that specific train.

The customers will always be notified if this is the case on the train they are boarding and are not to presume de-classification if not given specific instruction.​

*stares at text for a few minutes trying to make sense of it*

*starts pondering the meaning of life, the universe, and everything*

They have announcements, displays on-train and in some cases even posters saying that 'if you are on a metro service you may sit anywhere in the train including areas marked as first class' and now they are saying you can't? A lack of communication and/or coordination methinks...

 

[eAi]

I'm bemused by it too.

I emailed Southern after being told by a guard that we shouldn't be there. I told him that we could because it was a Metro train and he thanked me for letting him know (he said it was the first time he'd been a guard on a metro train - they don't usually have them).

There seems to be a lot of people online suggesting that it's fine - but I can't find anything on Southern's site.

 

[Surreytraveller]

You will find with Southern that they have employed a load of people who do not know what they are doing or what they are talking about. Plus training is non-existent in these sort of matters. Perhaps that goes some way to explaining the state they are in now.

 

[redbutton]

Also I believe the emails are answered by a contractor (Atos IIRC) so they only know what's in their "knowledge base" system.

 

[Deepgreen]

This is a bit of a bump, but perhaps better than starting a new thread.

I emailed Southern to ask them about First Class on Metro services and got this answer:

No you are incorrect in thinking any customer can use First Class on Metro train services.

You must have purchased a First Class ticket.

The only time a customer may use these seats is if 'First Class' has been de-classified for that specific train.

The customers will always be notified if this is the case on the train they are boarding and are not to presume de-classification if not given specific instruction.​

This is typical of Southern's gormless responses based on their automated word recognition system. Completely pointless response in that it is wrong and does not answer the question properly. I have had more of this type of response than I can remember.

First class on Southern and Thameslink is currently a farce. Even on main line workings where there is no doubt that first class applies, more and more people are simply ignoring it and sitting where they choose. Ticket checks are so rare as to be not worth considering as a threat, with TTIs now being as absent again as they were for months/years before a sudden, but very brief, appearance about six months ago. Conductors very rarely check these days and even then can't issue penalty fares. Anarchy.