Southern Class 377/6 1st class?

[GodAtum]

This weekend I was on a Class 377/6 from Brigton - Victoria in 1st class. This section is in a completely different palce then the rest of the 377 fleet so took me a while to find it. It's also quite a large section compared to the usual 377s.

A number of people were arguing at as it is usually a metro train 1st class should not count. I think they are wrong as there is 1st class booked on the timetable.

As an aside, the seats are very uncomfortable for any journeys over 30 mins.

 

[physics34]

This weekend I was on a Class 377/6 from Brigton - Victoria in 1st class. This section is in a completely different palce then the rest of the 377 fleet so took me a while to find it. It's also quite a large section compared to the usual 377s.

A number of people were arguing at as it is usually a metro train 1st class should not count. I think they are wrong as there is 1st class booked on the timetable.

As an aside, the seats are very uncomfortable for any journeys over 30 mins.

Ha ha, they are... have had many discussions about this, and how uncomfortable the seats are.

Selhurst 377s do BrightonExpress service at the weekend so a few diagrams are 377/6s or 7s.

They are primarily metro units but have this first class section in for flexibilty reasons.

The services are changing in december so these services will be operated by GatEx 442s..then 387/1s (not stopping at East Croydon)....... similar seating funnily enough in the 387s as far as im aware.

About the seating.. there is not enough padding for your backside and you can often feel rough sections of track through your back, with your spine taking the force. The hard backs are also uncomfortable but are purposely thin so that more seats can be squeezed in...

...on a plus point, i like the posture and the legroom.

I sound like a broken record but give me a drafty but comfortable VEP or CIG anyday!

 

[mirodo]

Surely The Southern Rail network map here: http://www.southernrailway.com/your-journey/plan-your-journey/network-map/ shows that the only metro services through ECR are those which go to Caterham/Tattenham Corner?

I often sit in first on those services on the basis that first class isn't shown on those services (I am OK doing this, aren't I?). Anything going to Brighton is presumably off limits.

 

[Deepgreen]

Surely The Southern Rail network map here: http://www.southernrailway.com/your-journey/plan-your-journey/network-map/ shows that the only metro services through ECR are those which go to Caterham/Tattenham Corner?

I often sit in first on those services on the basis that first class isn't shown on those services (I am OK doing this, aren't I?). Anything going to Brighton is presumably off limits.

The 377/6 and 377/7 sub-classes are a joke. They have nominal first class sections which have window stickers (with a few exceptions!) but no cantrail level yellow stripe. When they are used on Metro routes they are supposed to have their white anti-maccassars removed as they are de-classified. However, in my experience, they do not have them removed (except by dint of the fact that they just fall off in a breeze!) and it is almost impossible to tell whether first class is in operation on them or not. They also have the first class sections in different places on the 6s and the 7s!

Regarding their deployment south of East Croydon, they are rostered on weekdays to work some trains on the Horsham route (via Gatwick) when first is in operation. The conductors despair about the atrocious situation where passengers cannot tell whether to use the first class area or not. Southern have completely messed up their policy of first class and it all smacks of petulance at being forced to include first class on the original 377/1s and 377/4s owing to pressure from the Brighton line contingent, when Southern wanted to abolish it.

This confusion was rare under the old regime of CIGs/VEPs and EPBs/SUBs! If rolling stock flexibility was key, why not have simple, clear electronic signs telling passengers when first class is applicable?

 

[Class377/5]

There are now 3x 377/6 (sometimes /7) that run the Brighton to Victoria weekend services.

The seats on these units aren't quite the same as the 387s as on the 377/6 when down you feel plastic of the seat. The 387s have padding. I've done 2.5hrs on a 387 issue but can't stand the /6 seats for more than 30mins.

 

[blotred]

If rolling stock flexibility was key, why not have simple, clear electronic signs telling passengers when first class is applicable?

They used to have an automated announcement which stated something along the lines that Metro services in London do not have first class, passengers with standard class tickets may sit in any part of the train a couple of years ago.... but I haven't heard it in a while...

 

[southern442]

There are now 3x 377/6 (sometimes /7) that run the Brighton to Victoria weekend services.

The seats on these units aren't quite the same as the 387s as on the 377/6 when down you feel plastic of the seat. The 387s have padding. I've done 2.5hrs on a 387 issue but can't stand the /6 seats for more than 30mins.

I have noticed the 387 seats are marginally better than the 377/6 ones.

I think that the use of these trains on Brighton Expresses (and other mainline routes for that matter) is rather annoying as they are uncomfortable and can't hold as many people as the 442's they replaced. The trains are designed for metro routes, it would be like having a 455 on a long distance train and just putting antimacassars on the seats at one end. (I know the 377/6's have tables etc but I personally prefer the 455 seating to the 377/6 seats)

The first class on the 377/6 is sectioned off but that's about it. Half of the antimacassars are missing and most people don't realize it is first class. (I remember my friend telling me once that someone took the antimacassars and placed them on random seats around the train ) The 442 first class is much nicer, and 442's are better suited to fast BTN trains in my opinion (a 5-car 442 has 322 standard class seats, a 377/6 has 262). I'm feeling optimistic about the 700's, I don't think the seats will be that bad, but nowhere near as good as earlier units. I'm really starting to get annoyed at that seat design though, even the class 800's will be using it :-x

 

[Hophead]

Southern have completely messed up their policy of first class and it all smacks of petulance at being forced to include first class on the original 377/1s and 377/4s owing to pressure from the Brighton line contingent, when Southern wanted to abolish it.

This confusion was rare under the old regime of CIGs/VEPs and EPBs/SUBs! If rolling stock flexibility was key, why not have simple, clear electronic signs telling passengers when first class is applicable?

Well, except that the 377/1s were ordered by Connex who did, indeed, wish to offer a single-class service. Southern inherited the franchise and specified a separate saloon for first class on the 377/4 (& 377/5) units.

Mark 1 units were also used on Metro services from time to time, so the appearance of main line units on standard-class only services is not new. On Metro services there is an automated announcement available indicating that passengers can sit in any part of the train but I'm not a sufficiently regular traveller on these services to know if it's universally broadcast.

Do South West Trains have similar problems with their 450s on the Hounslow routes?

 

[redbutton]

To my knowledge, First Class is declassified on any Metro route, which is defined as a route where the origin and terminus of the service are wholly within the Travelcard zones.

Some common Metro routes for the 5-car units would be Victoria to London Bridge, London to Caterham/Tattenham, Sutton, and Epsom Downs (but not Epsom).

However, they're also used on Epsom, Dorking, Horsham, East Grinstead, and Brighton services where First Class is in operation.

This applies to all 377 units, not just the new 5-cars. There is a scrolling visual (but no audio) announcement on some of the routes that attempts to explain this, but is only says that there is no FC on "Southern Metro routes" without any definition. Many people take this to mean if their journey is on a Metro route, which I've seen result in quite a few disputes between passengers and RPIs.

One other thing I've noticed is that SN only have a single type of antimacassar, which uses a bungee rather than velcro to attach it to the seat. The triangular seat tops of the new units don't hold the bungee, and it just rides up until the antimacassar falls off. It's really unprofessional-looking, IMO.

I also think it's over-complicated that London-bound passengers have to know the origin of a particular train in order to figure out whether FC is in operation. I also wonder how often the roving RPIs bother to check the origin of a train before issuing PFs.

 

[Hophead]

To my knowledge, First Class is declassified on any Metro route, which is defined as a route where the origin and terminus of the service are wholly within the Travelcard zones.

Some common Metro routes for the 5-car units would be Victoria to London Bridge, London to Caterham/Tattenham, Sutton, and Epsom Downs (but not Epsom).

However, they're also used on Epsom, Dorking, Horsham, East Grinstead, and Brighton services where First Class is in operation.

The Metro routes do include Epsom, Dorking and Horsham (via Dorking). Not sure whose definition you're using.

 

[mirodo]

Is anyone able to provide a link to the statement on the Southern website which states that first class is declassified on Metro routes? I used to have a link, but can no longer find it.

 

[alastair]

Slightly OT but isnt it ironic that the one Southern(apart from the 442's)service that has "proper" first class with 2 and 1 seating are the 170 units on the Marshlink line and these have been declassified for years?

 

[Kite159]

Slightly OT but isnt it ironic that the one Southern(apart from the 442's)service that has "proper" first class with 2 and 1 seating are the 170 units on the Marshlink line and these have been declassified for years?

Only when the 171s are on Marshlink duties, when they are on the other 171 operated line (Uckfield) the 1st class section isn't declassified, gives Southern the flexibility to swap units around.

---

The First Class section on 6s & 7s is a bit of a joke, it offers passengers nothing extra than what they can get in standard class (i.e. plug sockets)

 

[al.currie93]

There are now 3x 377/6 (sometimes /7) that run the Brighton to Victoria weekend services.

The seats on these units aren't quite the same as the 387s as on the 377/6 when down you feel plastic of the seat. The 387s have padding. I've done 2.5hrs on a 387 issue but can't stand the /6 seats for more than 30mins.

The /6s and /7s really are horrible - I try to avoid them! I had to travel on them for 1hr 10 from Victoria to Ockley a number of times in my days commuting and it really wasn't nice!

The first class is also very obscure on them, and really only offers people nothing more than a greater chanceof a seat in return for a lot more money.

Good comment about comparing them to 455s as well, I'd take a 455 to Brighton over a 337/6 any day - though with my obscene love of 455s I'd happily take one to Edinburgh if it could make it, so I'm probably not the best person to give an opinion on 455s!

 

[redbutton]

The Metro routes do include Epsom, Dorking and Horsham (via Dorking). Not sure whose definition you're using.

Well that's part of the inconsistency, because I do recall reading somewhere (but can't find it now) about FC only being automatically declassified on routes within the Oyster zones.

 

[Bletchleyite]

...on a plus point, i like the posture and the legroom.

I like the seats in those units generally. But the legroom (achieved by not trying to cram an extra row in where there are airline seats) is most welcome - instead of an overtight row of airline seats they put in a side-facing seat.

 

[blotred]

Is anyone able to provide a link to the statement on the Southern website which states that first class is declassified on Metro routes? I used to have a link, but can no longer find it.

It used to be in the Southern Customer Charter... but the charter on the Southern website is now a joint GTR customer charter which doesn't mention it anymore....

Page 12, section 4.4 in https://web.archive.org/web/2014100...ilway.com/download/3139.5/passengers-charter/ (from an archived page from the Southern website)

Sometimes
we use trains which have first-class accommodation on metro routes which have no first-class fare. Where this is the case, the first-class
accommodation is automatically de-classified and this will be shown on the Customer Information Screens at the station. If you are unsure,
please check with a member of staff

 

[tsr]

Well that's part of the inconsistency, because I do recall reading somewhere (but can't find it now) about FC only being automatically declassified on routes within the Oyster zones.

First Class is definitely declassified in practice - if not always very clearly on paper - on all routes via Leatherhead, as well as most but not absolutely 100% of those starting and finishing within the zones. For example, there are one or two London Bridge - East Croydon services which run semi-fast and have First Class available.

It is indeed a minefield and the only way to be sure is to check timetables, or Realtime Trains, which is usually very accurate except on the WLL.

EDIT: The above refers to Southern-branded routes only. Obviously I am being highly pedantic here, as this thread is all about Southern, but just in case someone misinterprets it...

 

[causton]

It is indeed a minefield and the only way to be sure is to check timetables, or Realtime Trains, which is usually very accurate except on the WLL.

Is that the "First Class is declassified south of Clapham Junction on paper, but in reality the systems say it has it all the way along, but in practice the guards just let anyone sit there"?

 

[Philip C]

Slightly OT but isnt it ironic that the one Southern(apart from the 442's)service that has "proper" first class with 2 and 1 seating are the 170 units on the Marshlink line and these have been declassified for years?

The declassification of Ashford-Brighton trains has produced an even worse situation for First Class ticket holders than many might imagine.

As the First Class section really looks like a First Class section most standard ticket holders give it a wide berth. As a result it is largely those who have no regard for rules who have joined those who hold first class tickets in the section. Of course they have then learnt from conductors that they may occupy the seats. Thus it has become increasingly unpleasant to be in the declassified section (when holding a First Class ticket) whilst the better behaved, more salubrious, standard class ticket holders remain standing outside!

And, naturally, the riff raff, thus encouraged, take their chances in occupying first class seats on non-declassified trains!

 

[tsr]

Is that the "First Class is declassified south of Clapham Junction on paper, but in reality the systems say it has it all the way along, but in practice the guards just let anyone sit there"?

I couldn't possibly comment, but will not act to deny your suggestion of the status quo...

[Everyone thinks it's declassified South of Watford Junction now anyway, it seems. Ahem.]

 

[causton]

I couldn't possibly comment, but will not act to deny your suggestion of the status quo...

[Everyone thinks it's declassified South of Watford Junction now anyway, it seems. Ahem.]

And many of our guards think you can use a freedom pass to Watford Junction too, but the map clearly says not past Harrow unless going on LOROL, so there you go!

I did hear something about some of the guards being told to be a bit harsher at enforcing the First Class, but it doesn't seem like much has changed!

 

[GatwickDepress]

The West London Line is a minefield with regards to metro declassification; although since the train is always too crowded for the guard to walk through anyway, any first class revenue activities undertaken between Clapham Junction and Watford Junction remain utterly theoretical.
.

And, naturally, the riff raff, thus encouraged, take their chances in occupying first class seats on non-declassified trains!

Steady on, as a poverty-stricken student who always nabs a first class seat, I must postulate that I am not riff-raff... I mean, I wear a sleeveless jumper! I look like a librarian!

 

[tsr]

The West London Line is a minefield with regards to metro declassification; although since the train is always too crowded for the guard to walk through anyway, any first class revenue activities undertaken between Clapham Junction and Watford Junction remain utterly theoretical.
.

Steady on, as a poverty-stricken student who always nabs a first class seat, I must postulate that I am not riff-raff... I mean, I wear a sleeveless jumper! I look like a librarian!

Actually, somebody could fairly often check, or at least walk through, in the shoulder peak hours North of Shepherd's Bush, and North of Wembley Ctl or Harrow & Wealdstone in the peak. However, it's usually always too busy to contemplate trying to move people out of First between Hemel Hempstead and Norbury at most times of day anyway, even if about two-thirds of that section of the journey should have First enforced. It sounds like you have been unlucky with conductors not having a wander through and making themselves visible.

I'm not saying it's easy or especially pleasant, but even when it's full and standing, there are more times you can walk through than you'd think and - marvellously - some people on that line even seem to expect to see a ticket check!

 

[Surreytraveller]

On Metro services there is an automated announcement available indicating that passengers can sit in any part of the train but I'm not a sufficiently regular traveller on these services to know if it's universally broadcast.

On the 04.15 Brighton to Victoria, which used to call all stations between East Croydon and Victoria, 1st class is first class, as it is a mainline service. But the on-board announcements, as soon as the train got to Selhurst, started to announce that standard ticket holders could use first class. Even though first class is first class on this train. Where would someone stand if they got issued a penalty fare in that scenario?

 

[Philip C]

Steady on, as a poverty-stricken student who always nabs a first class seat, I must postulate that I am not riff-raff... I mean, I wear a sleeveless jumper! I look like a librarian!

The intercept of the set of riff-raff and the set of students isn't empty. I do accept your postulate that you, a student, are not necessarily in the subset of students who are also riff-raff. My concern is the intercept of the set of those travelling in first class and the set of those who are riff-raff. The intercept of those travelling in first class and the set of those who are students is not relevant to my argument.

If you look like a librarian and behave like a librarian I, as a first class ticket holder in possession of a first class seat, will have no problem with you and will treat you as one human to another. If you don't hold a ticket appropriate to the journey being made I will simply observe any interaction between you and the train conductor.

My comments derived from two propositions: (1) That the first to discover that standard class tickets can be used in some first class areas are those who have disrespect for the first class designation only to discover that declassification has occurred. (2) That declassification of some first class areas tends to encourage those inclined to sit there, whilst not holding first class tickets, to, advertently or inadvertently, try their luck where declassification has not been applied.

From these two propositions I contend that it can logically be deduced that the practice of declassification tends to lead to first class areas (classified and declassified) being occupied disproportionately by those with a low regard for rules, and above the proportion which would apply were declassification not to be practiced.

I apologise to any who recognised themselves as being classifiable as riff-raff and trust that they take no more offence from me, than from their self-reflections. First class remains, where it does, as a democratic institution available to all who make appropriate payment.

 

[sarahj]

On the 04.15 Brighton to Victoria, which used to call all stations between East Croydon and Victoria, 1st class is first class, as it is a mainline service. But the on-board announcements, as soon as the train got to Selhurst, started to announce that standard ticket holders could use first class. Even though first class is first class on this train. Where would someone stand if they got issued a penalty fare in that scenario?

The answer to that one was that service became a metro service after Croydon and thus first class went in a flash of air. I found this out as I was busy about to remove someone from first when they pointed out the PIS. I searched for further info and found this out.

 

[GodAtum]

The answer to that one was that service became a metro service after Croydon and thus first class went in a flash of air. I found this out as I was busy about to remove someone from first when they pointed out the PIS. I searched for further info and found this out.

Is this the same at the weekends too at different times?

 

[SPADTrap]

The intercept of the set of riff-raff and the set of students isn't empty. I do accept your postulate that you, a student, are not necessarily in the subset of students who are also riff-raff. My concern is the intercept of the set of those travelling in first class and the set of those who are riff-raff. The intercept of those travelling in first class and the set of those who are students is not relevant to my argument.

If you look like a librarian and behave like a librarian I, as a first class ticket holder in possession of a first class seat, will have no problem with you and will treat you as one human to another. If you don't hold a ticket appropriate to the journey being made I will simply observe any interaction between you and the train conductor.

My comments derived from two propositions: (1) That the first to discover that standard class tickets can be used in some first class areas are those who have disrespect for the first class designation only to discover that declassification has occurred. (2) That declassification of some first class areas tends to encourage those inclined to sit there, whilst not holding first class tickets, to, advertently or inadvertently, try their luck where declassification has not been applied.

From these two propositions I contend that it can logically be deduced that the practice of declassification tends to lead to first class areas (classified and declassified) being occupied disproportionately by those with a low regard for rules, and above the proportion which would apply were declassification not to be practiced.

I apologise to any who recognised themselves as being classifiable as riff-raff and trust that they take no more offence from me, than from their self-reflections. First class remains, where it does, as a democratic institution available to all who make appropriate payment.

I do hope this was a joke :razz:

 

[Philip C]

I do hope this was a joke :razz:

This was not intended as a joke but rather as an observation of an effect of declassification of First Class seating, especially as applies to Ashford-Brighton services where other trains on the Hastings-Brighton section normally have non-declassified First Class seating.

If you are taking exception to the use of the expression 'riff-raff' I point out that, whilst this is may be a pejorative term, in carrying the meaning of 'disreputable or undesirable people' it captures those members of society that I intended. Such people, whatever the PC description of them may be, are to be found travelling on trains and add little to the pleasure of rail travel.

My intention was merely to make an observation on the effect of declassification on the travel experience of First Class ticket holders. I understand the motives of Southern in effecting this declassification and was pointing out some of the downsides of their decision. If you drew amusement from my posting I am not offended.