Southern Class 313 & toilets

[BestWestern]

Well then, had a few trips recently on Southern's Class 313 sets which are running on the Coastway route, including through trips from Portsmouth Harbour - Brighton. When these were first on the scene I recall talk of Pompey - BTN diagrams being split into two or three 'legs' due to the lack of toilet facilities on this stock falling foul of requirements, however they are now very definitely in use on through journeys. Long old way to go without relief if you need it I must say! Can anyone shed any light on these 'toilet rules' and exactly what is and isn't allowed, or are they in fact just a myth!?

 

[asylumxl]

I don't think there is rules, only suggestions. I think Southeastern came up with some numbers they felt were satisfactory when they removed the toilets from some of their stock.

 

[Fincra5]

Trains need not even have toilets basically Imagine a Euston to Glasgow without them

 

[BestWestern]

I'm genuinely shocked by that, I really thought there were requirements of some type! I was informed, fairly reliably, that the 313s don't venture out in the evenings due to the inevitable consequences of people needing the toilet on a train that doesn't have one..... :-/

 

[es373]

I thought I read somewhere that if a rail service is running for xx amount of minutes then toilet facilities MUST be available to the public (and some services staff only loo's!)

 

[prod_pep]

Southern have claimed that their research shows that the vast majority (over 90%) of passengers on the Portsmouth stoppers are travelling relatively short distances (less than 30 minutes).

 

[150001]

Still not very good though. Can't toilets be retrofitted to them? Sorry if anyone likes the class 313s, 508s, 314s etc., but when will they be replaced as they are from the 70s.

 

[Helvellyn]

Still not very good though. Can't toilets be retrofitted to them? Sorry if anyone likes the class 313s, 508s, 314s etc., but when will they be replaced as they are from the 70s.

Why? Many people undertake bus journeys of 30-60 minutes, and they don't have loos.

 

[BestWestern]

Well of course Southern's research will say whatever they need it to say, won't it?! I'd argue that non-toilet stock on through Portsmouth - Brighton runs is inadequate. The Southern service is the primary public transport link between the two cities, and it's a fairly busy corridor. The only alternatives for people travelling that journey are two First Great Western fast services a day or Stagecoach's service 700 bus, which takes nigh on four hours and also has no lav! Surely there must be some London area commuter runs currently using Electrostar stock that would have been better suited to the 313's? They're fine if kept to shorter journeys like Portsmouth - Littlehampton, but it's poor having them on the main Brighton runs really.

 

[Fincra5]

Still not very good though. Can't toilets be retrofitted to them? Sorry if anyone likes the class 313s, 508s, 314s etc., but when will they be replaced as they are from the 70s.

Might be replaced when FCC get there new stock and then the 377/5s return to Southern

 

[swt_passenger]

They will start running Brighton to Southampton regularly at the next timetable change, at least according to Southern's latest track access application.

I'd agree with those who don't think there are any exact time/distance/stops rules on this, and I expect any talk of splitting the route was only ever internet discussion.

 

[Lampshade]

Trains need not even have toilets basically Imagine a Euston to Glasgow without them

I've done Sheffield - Manchester after a curry without a toilet, that was bad enough hock:

 

[Greenback]

Plenty of buses run for an hour 0r more without toilet facilities. I think people are used to the idea that trains should have toilets, and when we encounter one without, we are surprised and disappointed!

 

[tbtc]

Can't toilets be retrofitted to them?

I presume that any "new" toilet would have to be a "universal" one - a lot bigger and more expensive than the types on most older trains.

The "all trains need toilets" argument is dangerous, as it suggests that any unit with a toilet "out of order" should be terminated straight away.

 

[A-driver]

Surely there must be some London area commuter runs currently using Electrostar stock that would have been better suited to the 313's?

They can't run 313s in London suburban area as they can't run DOO as the offside cab window neither opens or is big enough to look across at offside monitors due to the small window at the top. They are only allowed on the southern with a guard. Too many London stations rely on offside monitors or lookback and it would cost too much time to get the driver to keep using stepping out the door for dispatch. They were planned for London I believe but this is why they were swapped with the 377/3's.

 

[MCR247]

Also, the 377/3s were need for 10 car operation in London, not possible with 313s

 

[150001]

Today, on 150012, a man got on, dropped his bag in the doorway at The Hawthorns and then moved his large bike down the 3+2 seating to the next door down on its back wheel as a Mum and her son and baby had a pushchair neatly parked up in the vestibule he got on. He first put the bike against the door so no one could get off or on and then moved it down. Luckily, no island platforms and put it on the right side. Then he went to the toilet, leaving the bag in the doorway. He hadn't returned for over 15 mins and I was getting worried about a bomb or something. After calling all stations (langley, old hill etc.) to Cradley Heath, he reappeared and hurried off. Obviously fare dodging.

On 150107 later on the way back to Dorridge, just after the train had started at Stourbridge Jn ( where it had just terminated from Dorridge) and I needed the toilet. It was engaged. I tried again just after Lye and still engaged. There was only a cuple of people on the train. My Nan noticed the toilet became finally vacant again, at The Hawthorns. Another fare dodger.

I should've gone and got the conductor but I forgot after Lye about it. So fare dodging in the toilet. So an advantage to Southern!

 

[dcd]

I was on Chichester Station on Wednesday and there were frequent announcements that "some services from this station are not scheduled to have toilets or first class accommodation" so passengers have been warned to use the station toilets - not sure what they do about no first class though.

 

[Fincra5]

There just isn't any. Shimplez

 

[swt_passenger]

On SN's trains you can simulate first class easily.

Write the number 1 on a paper towel and hang it on the headrest. Job done...

 

[thefab444]

Make sure you do it the middle coach as well, so you can simulate the steady stream of people barging through. Oh, and you might want to turn some of the seats sideways for no apparent reason.

 

[466.networkers]

I don't think there is rules, only suggestions. I think Southeastern came up with some numbers they felt were satisfactory when they removed the toilets from some of their stock.

Which SET stock have had toilets removed? The 508s never came with them, and the 376s were built without them ... all other stock (375, 465, 466 and 395) have at least one toilet per unit ...

 

[A-driver]

Think by removed the poster meant ordered stock to replace older stock without toilets. SET introduced more toilets on stations when the introduced the suburban electrostars.

The only operator I can think of who removed loos from trains was southern with the 456s.

I personally don't see what the fuss is about. 313s have been used for ages on the GN route from letchworth down to moor gate which is a long old trip with no toilet and no one has complained about that?

 

[Malderon]

As a Chichester resident I think people were just generally peeved when they lost their coastway electrostars and got trains that were 30 years old. Toilets were just a way to focus that peev! Personally I think the refurb job on the 313s was very good all things considered.

I can also go along with Southerns view that few people arent really regularly running Southampton / Portsmouth all the way to Brighton on a stopper because it is a pretty slow way to travel between the two places.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Sorry for the stupid question, but was it 377s that ran along the West Coastway pre-313s? I know they worked Seaford trains...

 

[francisoldfield]

yeah it was and they still do. Not all Coastways are 313's about half in fact. I have found (being a conductor on above services) that most passengers are fairly happy. The CIS for the most part at stations clearly show that the train is not scheduled to have toilets or first class and a number of the larger stations along the route have toilets.

Not too mention if I can work one of these trains for nearly 4 hours without using the toilet because I planned ahead, or because I use the toilet at Barnham before taking the train on I think most (but not all) punters could go an hour.

 

[A-driver]

At least the bigger stations have toilets though...try double Epsom downs in the rush hour on a 455 with 7 min turn around at vic...that is 4and a bit hours with no toilet...

 

[heart-of-wessex]

The 172s on LO are the same. I remebered some time ago doing a 172 on a TravelCard bash, wrong time to be wanting the loo! I got off at Upper Holloway as planned and preyed for a 150 instead of a 172 back to Gospel Oak! I had a 150 but then of course, they lock the loos out too. I diverted my plan and held on and got a 378 to Stratford to use the loos there.

They should have loos at selected stations for us TravelCard bashers who are out on various small routes or LU lines

 

[jon0844]

I personally don't see what the fuss is about. 313s have been used for ages on the GN route from letchworth down to moor gate which is a long old trip with no toilet and no one has complained about that?

I'm pretty sure many people have complained (indeed, the FCC forums have people complaining about 313s being used on late night trains to Letchworth) but the fact is nothing has changed for obvious reasons - First is not in a position to install toilets on its rolling stock and the 313s are probably easier to wash down if people really do get desperate, rather than cleaning the toilet-equipped trains that can be left in a right state.

 

[Drsatan]

455s are diagrammed for the Waterloo - Guildford via Epsom services, a journey which lasts just over an hour. Although few people will travel on that service end to end, spending nearly 40 minutes on the service between Guildford and Epsom is not much fun, especially with a full bladder.