Southern class 313 replacement?

[GodAtum]

I never understood why these arent being replaced by class 377s. Budget?

 

[47802]

I had the misfortune to travel on a 313 from Finsbury Park on Saturday first time for many years, my god a piece of clapped out old junk, the only place these and other similar units should be cascaded to it the scrap yard, and that comes from someone who lives in a Northern Trains area.

 

[TEW]

The FCC 313s are pretty nasty but the Southern ones were given a good quality refurbishment and aren't too bad at all.

 

[Chris125]

I never understood why these arent being replaced by class 377s. Budget?

If your referring to Coastway services, the expectation is that they will be replaced by 377s.

Chris

 

[prod_pep]

I would agree that Southern's 313s are better than FCC's, a real turn around since LO lost the 313/1s. Presumably, if the 313 fleets are reunited at Hornsey, the FCC examples will need a refurbishment with PIS and potentially new seating to match their Southern counterparts.

FCC's 313/0s urgently need their exteriors tidying up. Some of the front ends in particular look very tired.

 

[cjmillsnun]

There is also the 442 and 455's to look at replacing.

Why are we looking at replacing the 455s?

It would be more cost effective for Angel (who I think owns the SN 455s) to do a refurb along the lines that Porterbrook is doing with SWT's fleet (conversion to AC traction motors), and there is no reason why they cannot remain around for many years to come.

The 442s are another matter. They are unsuited to the route they are on (GatEx), although they are a very capable train. It would make sense to replace the 442s with an new Electrostar based train specific to the route. Whether DafT will allow it is open to question.

The question is what to do with the 442s afterwards.

They're designed as a mid distance express commuter train. Unfortunately they're also constrained by being 3rd rail and not easy (damn near impossible) to covert to an AC EMU.

I'd hate to see them scrapped as they have a good few years left in them.

 

[zn1]

313's are due for life extension maintenance, this will be done i suspect on a code 3 overhaul, all corrosion, wiring repairs, interior rebuild as needed can be comfortably carried out on this overhaul, a code 3 is smaller than a code one, in the fact that code one is a half life overhaul - example : the class 423 brake van passenger rebuild at eastleigh, class 411 rebuild at swindon...

442's need to be utilised on single stop expresses, such as Vic-gatwick and return on the old circuits that their predecessors worked on....intersperse these with a one an hour express vic-gatwick-brighton, and you will find they work better.

442 is no different to the old mk2 gatwick stock, same doorways etc....just a bit newer...

if 442 is used properly, as an 'intercity' unit, as designed they will perform....I say intercity as although being an swt job - waterloo- weymouth is if memory serves a 200 mile run, perfect race ground for them as was the pompey run....end of

 

[swt_passenger]

if 442 is used properly, as an 'intercity' unit, as designed they will perform....I say intercity as although being an swt job - waterloo- weymouth is if memory serves a 200 mile run, perfect race ground for them as was the pompey run....end of

442s to Weymouth spent the majority of the route length as all stations stoppers. To suggest the Portsmouth direct is also some sort of 'race track' is pretty much ridiculous as well...

 

[Mikey C]

Could the 442s be used as loco hauled carriages for the likes of Chiltern? They're Mk3 carriages with power doors, it's the 60s traction equipment underneath that's getting old and tired.

 

[evergreenadam]

No its not. Its taking some of the WGC services. So additional services (Hertford North being 4tph off peak) and longer trains (all peaks 6 cars) on the Hertford services sees a requirement for extra units which the 313 are expect to be used as they are the only suitable stock unless the winner replaces the whole fleet.

Currently 12tph into Moorgate in the peaks, 8tph from Hertford North/Gordon Hill and 4tph from Welwyn Garden City. A supplementary 2tph semi-fast service to King's Cross boosts frequency at suburban stations such as New Barnet and Oakleigh Park and provides a faster service than the all stations service to Moorgate from Hatfield and Potters Bar, but it is also operated by 6 car 313s, which seems a waste of line capacity. It could be operated by 8 car trains and so if diverted to Thameslink will have a capacity increase of 33%. Are these KX trains particularly busy at present? It would seem like an easy win to convert them to 8 car operation now if the spare 317s could be leased.

The WGC-Thameslink service will release 313s which will be available to increase services from Hertford North, but presumably these are not enough or Thameslink will not open soon enough and therefore the Southern 313s will be needed too?

 

[TEW]

Not all the Kings Cross-Welwyn peak trains are 313s. They use a mix of traction. If you look in FCC timetable it gives you the planned number of coaches for peak services, the Welwyns are a mix of 4, 6 and 8.

 

[prod_pep]

Last time I was on the GN, only one of the Kings Cross - Welwyn GC evening peaks was a 313 formation. The others were mainly 365s, a mixture of four and eight car formations.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Could the 442s be used as loco hauled carriages for the likes of Chiltern? They're Mk3 carriages with power doors, it's the 60s traction equipment underneath that's getting old and tired.

Sorry, disagree with that. The traction equipment was an evolution of that used for many years on the Southern Region of BR.

All the slammers that went in '04 were using similar equipment and were more reliable than the modern equipment is now. Any unreliability IMO is down to poor maintenance.

They were far more reliable when maintained by SWT

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Sorry, disagree with that. The traction equipment was an evolution of that used for many years on the Southern Region of BR.

All the slammers that went in '04 were using similar equipment and were more reliable than the modern equipment is now. Any unreliability IMO is down to poor maintenance.

They were far more reliable when maintained by SWT

To be fair, ALL equipment has a finite lifespan before it requires replacement- so the running gear on the 442s, at getting on for half a century old, is likely to be at that stage- though I'm not sure if that is the cause of some of the recent fires. The old equipment might well be more reliable, for a number of reasons- it's less complex and fitters have decades of experience working on it. However it is also likely to be less efficient.

At risk of going off-topic, perhaps the 442s (restored to their original configuration with a buffet and compartments, of course!) would be better used as a modern-day version of the 'Brighton Belle' Pullman service?

 

[Mikey C]

Sorry, disagree with that. The traction equipment was an evolution of that used for many years on the Southern Region of BR.

All the slammers that went in '04 were using similar equipment and were more reliable than the modern equipment is now. Any unreliability IMO is down to poor maintenance.

They were far more reliable when maintained by SWT

Their traction motors are a lot more powerful than those used in the BIGs and CIGs, so maybe can overheat more if not looked after properly, especially as they are pretty old by now!