Southern calling patterns

[Schweir]

Quite a broad area but what are people's opinions on the current Southern calling pattern? Do some stations need more services (or less), are new routes needed? A few starter discussion points can be found below

• Should Clapham Junction & Redhill get a direct service to Brighton?
• Should Three Bridges get more services (i.e maybe removing Wivelsfield from one of the Ore / Eastbourne services and adding Three Bridges) thus improving connections for Crawley & Horsham to the coast
• Should the Southampton Service be altered due to poor performance (i.e the common pining of the service at Fareham)
• Should Gatwick be removed from more peak services to improve capacity for commuters (probably unlikely unless more services are introduced?)

 

[zwk500]

Quite a broad area but what are people's opinions on the current Southern calling pattern? Do some stations need more services (or less), are new routes needed? A few starter discussion points can be found below

• Should Clapham Junction & Redhill get a direct service to Brighton?

Clapham junction definitely. Redhill to Brighton I would put in a 'would be nice if we can do it without getting in the way'

• Should Three Bridges get more services (i.e maybe removing Wivelsfield from one of the Ore / Eastbourne services and adding Three Bridges) thus improving connections for Crawley & Horsham to the coast

I wouldn't remove Wivelsfield from an East Coastway to serve Three Bridges. Crawley isn't a big destination from the East Sussex coast. I'd say fast trains stop at either Gatwick or Three Bridges, and balance the stops up that way.

• Should the Southampton Service be altered due to poor performance (i.e the common pining of the service at Fareham)

The only realistic option would be simply to permanently cap the service short of Southampton. From all I've heard, the Southampton link is well used.

• Should Gatwick be removed from more peak services to improve capacity for commuters (probably unlikely unless more services are introduced?)

It's a possible option although Gatwick does need the capacity as people will be coming off early flights or arriving for lunchtime flights during the peak.

 

[Sussex Ben]

Should Clapham Junction & Redhill get a direct service to Brighton?

Clapham Junction almost certainly, and capacity exists on most Gatwick Express services (although accept there may be some pathing challenges). No comment on the scope of what Gatwick Express should or shouldn't be though as it's been done to death several times. Redhill is probably different as without running additional services you would end up slowing down services to stations south of Gatwick and introducing more trains which cross from fast to slow lines etc, so the benefits of this may be more limited. As a novel idea (this is in the speculative forum after all) I've always been keen on extending the North Downs service to Brighton, however I very much doubt paths are available and running 3-car diesels on a busy mainline is a waste of capacity.

Should Three Bridges get more services (i.e maybe removing Wivelsfield from one of the Ore / Eastbourne services and adding Three Bridges) thus improving connections for Crawley & Horsham to the coast

Trains towards Lewes have to crawl through Wivelsfield due to approach control for the speed restriction at Keymer Jn, so you may as well stop anyway. Burgess Hill is also a growing town (with most new houses being built much closer to Wivelsfield station than Burgess Hill), so having a half-hourly service to Lewes and beyond is of benefit. I don't disagree with the concept of Three Bridges having 4tph fast to Victoria compared to the 2tph it gets now though.

Should the Southampton Service be altered due to poor performance (i.e the common pining of the service at Fareham)

I have less knowledge of this service, however I imagine direct services from Gatwick to Southampton are popular. Better to understand the reasons behind the poor performance and fix those rather than cut the service short in my opinion.

Should Gatwick be removed from more peak services to improve capacity for commuters (probably unlikely unless more services are introduced?)

Yes please

 

[cle]

If Southampton was removed, you'd still have something splitting at Horsham - so you could either send the portion to Portsmouth (more reliable?) - or Littlehampton. Or all to Bognor.

But then you'd want something longer distance along the coastway, especially given the loss of Brighton-Cardiff (3tpd - could we use those paths too? and hourly/bi-hourly?) - that could well be a Brighton-Soton is pathable, but might end up being a Portsmouth-Southampton frequency. I'd hope for the West Worthing slows to return too - but if they don't, maybe there is more otherwise that can be done.

 

[JonathanH]

Redhill is probably different as without running additional services you would end up slowing down services to stations south of Gatwick and introducing more trains which cross from fast to slow lines etc, so the benefits of this may be more limited.

The basic issue with Redhill is that it involves two crossing moves because the lines cross south of Coulsdon. The train also has to fit both before and after a train using the Quarry Line. From an operational perspective, it is just not worth doing.

There is also an issue with capacity on trains from Brighton for more passengers to board at Redhill on their way to London.

 

[cle]

Historically the Brighton trains which called at Redhill were pretty slow too. Whereas today they have X tph to Gatwick, and then even non-stop options to Brighton. Not checking the times right now, but a good connection would probably be quicker than it ever was.

 

[JonathanH]

Historically the Brighton trains which called at Redhill were pretty slow too. Whereas today they have X tph to Gatwick, and then even non-stop options to Brighton. Not checking the times right now, but a good connection would probably be quicker than it ever was.

That of course is the paradox.

Passengers from the stations south of Three Bridges travelling to London dont want a 8 or 10 minute journey delay because the trains go via Redhill.

The stations south of Three Bridges generate enough demand to fill direct trains to London.

People in Redhill would like to be able to get to Brighton direct, but there isn't a significant flow in the other direction.

Redhill passengers for London don't want trains that are too full to board, even though they could offer a faster journey time.

Some journeys from Brighton to Redhill are quicker changing at Gatwick than a through train would be.

 

[PGAT]

I don’t think any of the things listed should be changed, as they would probably cause more unexpected problems than they solve. Clapham Junction SHOULD absolutely have direct trains to Brighton, but there isn’t much of a good way around doing that.

 

[cle]

I don’t think any of the things listed should be changed, as they would probably cause more unexpected problems than they solve. Clapham Junction SHOULD absolutely have direct trains to Brighton, but there isn’t much of a good way around doing that.

Stop at GatEx services there (and EC) - and then rename them! And space out other services to enable both calls to be possible... maybe there is a frequency which could shift to LB/TL in turn, rather than outright losing one.

 

[Sussex Ben]

Stop at GatEx services there (and EC) - and then rename them! And space out other services to enable both calls to be possible... maybe there is a frequency which could shift to LB/TL in turn, rather than outright losing one.

I don’t think there’s much need to call them at East Croydon as they already get 4tph to Brighton, two of which are fast enough. The days of fast services taking 35mins are long gone.

 

[PGAT]

If GX stop then it defeats the whole purpose of the express service. Might as well replace it with the ex-Southern Victoria-Brighton service

 

[LLivery]

I had no idea Clapham Jun lost its direct service to Brighton, when did that happen?

If GX stop then it defeats the whole purpose of the express service. Might as well replace it with the ex-Southern Victoria-Brighton service

Yes please.

 

[cle]

If GX stop then it defeats the whole purpose of the express service. Might as well replace it with the ex-Southern Victoria-Brighton service

Now you get it!

 

[PGAT]

I had no idea Clapham Jun lost its direct service to Brighton, when did that happen?

I think it was March 2020 when the initial cuts were made?

 

[Alex365Dash]

If GX stop then it defeats the whole purpose of the express service. Might as well replace it with the ex-Southern Victoria-Brighton service

Which begs the question…
…why do we need the Gatwick Express?

Only issue is that, from previous discussion, it turns out that the GX paths use the paths that have to non-stop Clapham to fit.

 

[PGAT]

sbegs the question…
…why do we need the Gatwick Express?

Only issue is that, from previous discussion, it turns out that the GX paths use the paths that have to non-stop Clapham to fit.

It's a tourist trap by offering a non-stop service to Victoria to make more money. I think its also intended to separate airport travellers from the busy commuter trains

 

[LLivery]

The Sydenham corridor needs its 15 min frequency back. It wasn't that long ago it was every 10 mins to London Bridge, now it's every 30. Combine with the Southeastern cuts and getting across South London is just a joke.

Penge W & Anerley also need their London Bridge services back and we all need our East Croydon connection back. It used to be one direct train to Caterham and two for East Grinstead, Uckfield and Tattenham, now it's three.

I think it was March 2020 when the initial cuts were made?

Ah, of course. Crazy state of affairs.

 

[PGAT]

Penge W & Anerley also need their London Bridge services back and we all need our East Croydon connection back.

While it is a shame they lost their direct services it was probably a more effective use of resources to bring those trains to Victoria instead

 

[LLivery]

While it is a shame they lost their direct services it was probably a more effective use of resources to bring those trains to Victoria instead

It is, yes - it's clearly well used. I find both equally useful and I'm worried this is going to become rather long term - that should not happen.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I think its also intended to separate airport travellers from the busy commuter trains

...a purpose which was completely lost as soon as some of them, and later all of them, were extended to Brighton.

 

[cle]

...a purpose which was completely lost as soon as some of them, and later all of them, were extended to Brighton.

Not to mention the legions of airport travellers who join at Clapham Junction.

If you took all 4 tph and added them into the pool of standard Southern services with CJ/EC calls, and evened out the paths - the impact on commuters sharing would be lessened. And the paths would be far better used.

Amsterdam, Zurich, Copenhagen, Tokyo (Haneda at least) - all of these places who do trains and airports (and most other things) better than us all manage to mingle airport and commuter/regional services just fine, without dedicated expresses.

 

[Brubulus]

Which begs the question…
…why do we need the Gatwick Express?

By this point it's that some foreign tourists will fall for it and net the railway some extra revenue. Abolishing it and simply running them as Southern services would probably deliver larger cost savings than the revenue loss.

Only issue is that, from previous discussion, it turns out that the GX paths use the paths that have to non-stop Clapham to fit.

What about running 4tph all the way on GX and only having 2tph (former SN paths) call at CJ if it really is that necessary not to stop at CJ for GX paths.

 

[RobShipway]

I think the taking out of services from Clapham Junction to Brighton was due in part to the fact of possibly not having the paths, but also of having enough stock for such a service with the class 455 units being taken out and the class 313 units soon to be leaving, it leaves Southern with the few class 171 units, plus class 377 units and the spare class 387/2 Gatwick Express units not being use don either Gatwick Express or Great Northern Services.

Should Clapham Junction & Redhill get a direct service to Brighton?

If stock and paths where available, yes in an ideal world. Otherwise, you would have to lessen the services to Eastbourne, Hastings and Ore. But people are more likely to be commuting from Brighton, Eastbourne, Hastings and Ore to Central London, than somewhere like Clapham Junction. You may ask well why are they going to East Croydon then, well there is quite a few businesses based in East Croydon that people certainly pre - covid commuted too.

Should Three Bridges get more services (i.e maybe removing Wivelsfield from one of the Ore / Eastbourne services and adding Three Bridges) thus improving connections for Crawley & Horsham to the coast

Wivelsfield has a Thameslink service Monday to Saturday that stops there every 30 minutes in each direction. Plus has a Southern service in each direction every 30 minutes to/from either Eastbourne or Ore.
Three Bridges gets Southern services from Southampton Central, Portsmouth, Bognor Regis. It also get Thameslink services from Brighton or Horsham all of which are travelling too or from Bedford, Cambridge or Peterborough.

So you want to worsen the services for Wivelsfield to say one Thameslink and Southern service an hour? If not, then as I have stated above paths would be required if possible and more stock than the DFT are currently allowing Southern to use now and in the future.

Should the Southampton Service be altered due to poor performance (i.e the common pining of the service at Fareham)

Which Southamptom service are you referring too? The service to London Victoria, which previously started in Bournemouth originally years ago or the service to Brighton? I believe that there is a Southern service that operates Southampton to Horsham as well?

I would alter the services from Littlehampton, rather than the services from Southampton. I know that the services from Littlehampton quite often join services that have come from Eastbourne or Ore at Haywards Heath. However, if capacity allows I would have both trains go through Haywards Heath and do the coupling of the trains at Three Bridges. Haywards Heath is pretty well served by Thameslink services and I don't believe there is as many people commuting to work in Haywards Heath nowadays as there once was previously. I would say that there is more people needing to get to Three Bridges/Crawley areas than Haywards Heath. I say this as someone that many years ago use to have to commute from Newhaven to Haywards Heath for work.

Should Gatwick be removed from more peak services to improve capacity for commuters (probably unlikely unless more services are introduced?)

Okay, not sure of what the flight pattern of arrivals of planes are at Gatwick nowadays. But if there is quite a few flights in the peak hours, it is possible that not all those passengers are going to be want to be travelling to London or Brighton and would want to pay the fares that is charged by using Gatwick Express. Yes, Thameslink does serve Gatwick as well as Southern. Is there anywhere that the Southern services maybe calling too, that Thameslink services do not call at and vice/versa for that matter? For those peak time services where only Southern or Thameslink services only call at those places but also call at Gatwick Airport, how long would someone have to wait between services? What are the numbers of people travelling from/to those places during peak hours?

For instance as an example, if someone that lived in say Plumpton works in Gatwick doing a 9am - 5pm job. If you cut out Gatwick during peak hours, how would that person living in Plumpton get to/from work, if you cut out services travelling say between 7am - 9am and 4pm - 6pm stopping at Gatwick?

Yes, maybe cut out some services to/from Brighton at peak times from stopping at Gatwick, but not services that have come from more rural areas.

 

[PGAT]

Problem with that is I don’t think there are enough 387s left since some of them will still be running on the East Coastway

 

[swt_passenger]

Which Southamptom service are you referring too? The service to London Victoria, which previously started in Bournemouth originally years ago or the service to Brighton? I believe that there is a Southern service that operates Southampton to Horsham as well?

The Southern train between Southampton and Victoria is a service that splits and joins at Horsham with a Bognor Regis portion. The reason you see a Southampton to Horsham service on some online systems is that in the up direction it is the Bognor portion that leads from Horsham so its train ID is used north of Horsham. It’s effectively a glitch in the information system, not a real service.

Because of the long signal sections on the Netley Line, if a Victoria to Southampton service is more than about 5-10 late at Fareham it immediately impacts on the next 3 trains towards Southampton, GW, SN then SWR. Because the Brighton to Southampton is only 15 mins behind it if on time, then it is much better for all 3 TOCs if the down service ex Victoria is stopped at Fareham and able to maintain its next up path.

 

[Brubulus]

Problem with that is I don’t think there are enough 387s left since some of them will still be running on the East Coastway

With short turnarounds, you'll need 9 diagrams for a 4tph Brighton service. There are currently 5 diagrams so they can't release more than 8 387s if they are going to run them 8 car from May. Given that GN only need 16 units plus 3 for peak 12 car services then at least 6 more for the Peterborough peak extras, the most you could get them down to is 28 but that would be a bit of a squeeze. They've currently got 36 so 8 can move to SN to run the new diagrams. That's not even taking to account the slight slack in the 12 coach 700 fleet after a few underused peak extras disappear in may allowing them to run the Peterborough services, unlocking 6 more units. Once you've done that, you could even use the GA 20 spare 720s (only 14+2 spares needed to actually run the service so GA has some breathing space. Then 22 more 387s could go to SN. Let alone being able to get 8 or so units out of GWR if Oxford doesn't get any electrification. All of these moves don't lead to any new trains needing to be leased by DfT so there are more than enough 387s.

 

[miklcct]

Which begs the question…
…why do we need the Gatwick Express?

Only issue is that, from previous discussion, it turns out that the GX paths use the paths that have to non-stop Clapham to fit.

Can you explain more on this? Isn't the capacity maximised by having all trains stop at Clapham and Croydon?

Quite a broad area but what are people's opinions on the current Southern calling pattern? Do some stations need more services (or less), are new routes needed? A few starter discussion points can be found below

• Should Clapham Junction & Redhill get a direct service to Brighton?
• Should Three Bridges get more services (i.e maybe removing Wivelsfield from one of the Ore / Eastbourne services and adding Three Bridges) thus improving connections for Crawley & Horsham to the coast
• Should the Southampton Service be altered due to poor performance (i.e the common pining of the service at Fareham)
• Should Gatwick be removed from more peak services to improve capacity for commuters (probably unlikely unless more services are introduced?)

Sure for Clapham Junction. In the pandemic the fast Victoria - Brighton Southern services ran on the same path as the suspended Gatwick Express. For Redhill, maybe it's possible for Thameslink to serve it by making Bedford - Brighton route run slow north of Three Bridges, and making Bedford - Three Bridges fast, leaving Brighton 4 fast and 2 slow per hour instead of all 6 trains fast.

Three Bridges already have enough services (6 fast and 4 slow per hour) however if adding stops can further increase capacity of the line I'll support it as well.

The Southampton - Victoria service, if modified, can be made terminating at Gatwick Airport, but this will need the Bognor Regis - Victoria service to be made 12 cars to compensate.

And finally, all trains should stop at Gatwick unless it's a service to pass another service there.

 

[zwk500]

Can you explain more on this? Isn't the capacity maximised by having all trains stop at Clapham and Croydon?

Because there's no loop or extra platforms, stopping all trains at Clapham Junction reduces the overall throughput. You get a couple of extra paths if some trains don't stop.

 

[PGAT]

For Redhill, maybe it's possible for Thameslink to serve it by making Bedford - Brighton route run slow north of Three Bridges, and making Bedford - Three Bridges fast, leaving Brighton 4 fast and 2 slow per hour instead of all 6 trains fast.

I wonder what the good people of Brighton, Burgess Hill and Haywards Heath would think, after their journeys now taking an extra 10 minutes to pick up a few people at Redhill.

Alas, destinations south of Horsham and Three Bridges are probably only justified on weekends, if at all.

 

[zwk500]

I wonder what the good people of Brighton, Burgess Hill and Haywards Heath would think, after their journeys now taking an extra 10 minutes to pick up a few people at Redhill.

Haywards Heath (and potentially Burgess Hill) would at least have other options from coastway services.