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southern bias

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daccer

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Thameslink 2000 - 5.5 billion
Crossrail - 15 billion
Kings Cross redevelopment
Euston redevelopment
New Javelins
New 378's and 172's for London Overground.
NLL extension
Stratford and Olympics development
DLR extensions
Tube refurb

What the total cost of that little lot not including HS1 and St Pancras is god only knows. Contrast that with the desperate attempts at Northern and FGW to hold onto half a dozen Pacers and to open a dozen miles of tack between Skipton and Colne. Northern and FGW are the sleeping giants of the TOC's. What makes it worse is they both border the devolutionised areas of Scotland and Wales which are pushing ahead with rail developments apace. My question is this ; what can be done to redress the balance of spending in England and what schemes in the North and west should be viewed as a priority.
 
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Pumbaa

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Yes, but what proportion of the population lives in the south? Although overcrowding is a problem all over the network, it is just as bad during the peaks in the South as it is up North. I'd also say that the network has more use down south, and as such the need for constant rebuilding etc is a must.
 

daccer

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i think you will find Manchester, Leeds, Liverpool, Newcastle et al residents would disagree that those in the South dont have a distinct advantage. when all is said and done we dont see Pacers running into Marylebone and LIverpool St as we do in Leeds and Bristol. there is also the argument that the North especially has always lagged the South East in terms of inward investment, standard of living and economic growth and to pump the majority of the rail budget into the south does just widen the gap between the regions. Crossrail's budget on its own could regenerate the whole Northern and Western networks. Unlike HS1crossrail will have no direct benefit for passengers from the North as it is purely a London based iniative. Add in Thameslink and you are at $20 billion already. A tiny fraction of that will reopen half a dozen lines in the North and electricifation of core routes and new trains to run on them. The argument about usage is also slightly bogus as there is undoubted massive untapped demand in the North just waiting for decent servics and new routes
 

Pumbaa

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Yes there is an untapped demand - I'll give you that. We don't have Pacers, but until a few years ago the average age of stock in NSE was the oldest on the network, with the SE/SC/SW routes still using stock based on Mk1 bodyshells. The majority of investment in the area has come as the direct replacement of these, along with the necessary upgrade works in hand. Result - hundreds of Electrostars and Desiros that won't be replaced until they're run into the ground. 313s are still pottering around, and they can be worse than Pacers, if not more overcrowded at times in the GN route.

I'll definitely agree that Bristol and the west country have it bad - development seems to be slow down there. But there is now a case of new rolling stock and light rail services arriving, so hopefully it won't be a problem for much longer.

Crossrail is a necessity - I say again it is just as crowded down here than it is up there when everybody uses the network, and in a few years it won't be able to cope. Also remember that most foreigners forget that England or the UK exists outside of London, with maybe a bit of Lake District and some funny men in skirts who hate the English up north; improving capacity is a necessity down south.

Although yes, the north does need an extensive programme of updating, electrification, new services etc, I refute your opening statement that there is an untoward bias to the south.
 

bluenoxid

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Thameslink 2000 - 5.5 billion
Crossrail - 15 billion
Kings Cross redevelopment
Euston redevelopment
New Javelins
New 378's and 172's for London Overground.
NLL extension
Stratford and Olympics development
DLR extensions
Tube refurb

What the total cost of that little lot not including HS1 and St Pancras is god only knows. Contrast that with the desperate attempts at Northern and FGW to hold onto half a dozen Pacers and to open a dozen miles of tack between Skipton and Colne. Northern and FGW are the sleeping giants of the TOC's. What makes it worse is they both border the devolutionised areas of Scotland and Wales which are pushing ahead with rail developments apace. My question is this ; what can be done to redress the balance of spending in England and what schemes in the North and west should be viewed as a priority.

There is something like 50% of all rail journeys happen in London and the South East alone. They really do need the investment to happen.

We do have subsidised PTE's and pretty good services in some areas. The problem is that we just have so many bodies in the north who have their finger in the pie that we just can't do the smaller projects and the bigger projects tend to be government funded anyway.

The north has some very capable people and groups but we spend a lot of time and effort (quite rightly so) on ensuring that the job is done properly.

I believe it is time that we had an ITA for the north of England and others for the midlands, north anglia and the South West, with allocated budgets to really develop transport projects which could rejuvenate the areas. There are plenty of opportunities to grab what we can over the next few years. Just as long as the NIMBY's and foot in mouth councillors can be dealt with
 

me123

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50% of journeys are in the South, but why then do they get >50% of the investment? The North needs investment too. In fact, just as much. It's crazy that all the money is spent in the South when there's passengers in the North who get so much less. I'd hardly say that Skipton-Colne, a valuable link, is cheap in comparison to some other projects.

I'm not saying that London doesn't need all the above, but similar projects in the North are needed just as much. Just because the Houses of Parliament are in London doesn't mean it's the centre of the universe.

I'm glad to be in Scotland when it comes to railways; I'm sure SAK, A-B and other forthcoming projects wouldn't happen without a Scottish Parliament.
 

Metroland

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Rail investment in London reflects the commuter patterns that have formed since the railways inception. London dominates the South East and home counties, often forgotten by the people that live outside the area.

The commuter towns of the South rely extensively on long distance commuting to the capital - as does the capital's success.

In the North, historically, because it was more of an industrial base commuting patterns have been shorter or less intense, people live and work more in the cities - although this is changing. Leeds is a very important financial centre these days, and has an extensive commuter network to the Skipton area. The feel of these lines is similar to those in the South. Manchester is becoming increasingly important in the service sector, especially media. But nevertheless still pales in comparison compared to London. Both Liverpool and Hull and still going through post industrial decline - Hull's population peaked around the war.

I agree, nevertheless, that pacers ought to be replaced by an extensive network of electrified lines. The entire Pennine corridor ought to be connected by High speed rail service that would produce some agglomeration effects and enable the Northern cities to compete with London. But its all about money and what needs it first. The trouble is the North's railways are very subsidised compared to the south - a reflection of lower incomes and less use per head.

As for the South West, apart from Bristol and Bournemouth, the area is in pretty much terminal decline. With the death of many industries, and cheap foreign holidays abroad as well as an ever increasing ageing population the South West is essentially low income and a low user of rail - at least in comparison to the South East.

Its not as bad as the North East, nevertheless, where rail use is so low, the Berkshire town of Reading produces more passengers than the whole of the area. Again, a reflection of the demographic - although the metro in Newcastle takes much of the load. Again, it doesn't mean markets shouldn't be tapped into an transport improved, which will do much to level the North-South divide.
 

daccer

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i think it all comes down to circles. At the moment the railways are in a sustained period of growth (the present downturn excepted) brought on by a whole raft of different socio-economic factors. This has led to a virtuous circle of increased investment leading to increased usage so leading to more investment etc. However if you ask Sir Alex Ferguson when is the right time to strengthen your squad he will invariably say when you are on top. So this virtuous circle will not continue without effort and money being pumped in to sustain it. I agree that the commuter belt of the south deserved a decent service and in most cases they have now got one. However to continue pumping money into the area to the detriment of the rest of the country is bowing to historical pressures rather than facing the reality of the world we now live in. The North is historically the heart of the country not London. London's pre-eminence has largely been based on the financial institutions present there and more precisely the Square Mile. These institutions are now in decline and many companies now view the North as a logical base of their headquaters and you will also be loathe to find many new manufacturing units being built down South. To keep quoting current usage statistics is simply following the status quo. Of course Reading has high usage it has trains arriving every ten minuties direct to London and a large commuter base. The question for the rest of the country is how do they replicate London where people choose public transport over the car. The recent reopenings in Wales and Scotland show the latent demand that is present outside London. I think if you asked anybody outside the South East if the 20 billion for Thameslink and Crossrail could be better used for the country as a whole I am sure we know the answer. The current economic situation has ripped up all the old rules and shown that the status quo isnt always the right way to go. Simply quoting current statistics just prolongs the status quo and the underinvested areas could very easily slip into the Vicous Circle of the late 80's where drops in usage lead to service cuts and down we go.
It is hard to take an overall view on these things as we all like to look after our own 'patch' but the disparity in funding and projects must be obvious to all.
 

MCR247

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Thameslink 2000 - 5.5 billion
Crossrail - 15 billion
Kings Cross redevelopment
Euston redevelopment
New Javelins
New 378's and 172's for London Overground.
NLL extension
Stratford and Olympics development
DLR extensions & Tube refurb- Well Tube refurb & DLR are part of LU, not national rail system. If were going to go by metro/light rail etc, we (the north) have NET Trams, Metrolink, Tyne & Wear Metro & Glasgow Subway

The north has quite alot. You cant count HS1, because thats an international rail link. Yes I understand your point about overcrowding, but the south gets quite overcrowded in rush hour.

But one thing I is that Southern (the TOC) have quite a few 377s on routes that dont need them. Like I was on a London-Portsmouth/Bognor service.It was 12 coaches. The front 4 were for Portsmouth and they were crowded. This is on a Saturday off peak. The rear 8 were for Bognor and were empty! I got of at Barnham and saw an 8car Bognor - Littlehampton!! shock:
 

daccer

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the Glasgow Subway is obviously funded and controlled from the Scottish Parliament. i think there is an oversimplification to compare the developments currently being undertaken on the Tyne and wear Metro and in Manchester with the scale of the upgrades in London. Also you miss my point which is not specific to National Rail or to specific light rail initiatives. The fact of the matter and it is a fact is that a bigger slice of the public purse is spent on public transport in London and the south rather than in the rest of England, cant say the UK anymore as Wales and Scotland look after themselves now. The reason this is so is I believe because of historical precedent not because of a reasoned and analytical apprasial of what is happening in the country now and what might happen in the next 30 years. The whole commuter argument is also a little bit fragile as there is an viewpoint that commuters travel at a subsidised rate to normal passengers and providing for them is actually sucking up a lot more cash than will ever be covered at the farebox. It is also an undeniable fact that lack of public transport provision is holding back some of the larger Northern cities from realising their true potential as centres of business. To deny a Londoncentric bias in public transport is like arguing that Heathrow really does need a third runway and expanding Heathrow further is really very good news for the country as a whole - yeah right!
 

me123

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The Glasgow Subway's SPT; it needs a refurb IMO before 2014 but I don't think it's going to happen. Anyway, I wouldn't count that as an example of Southern Bias.

What I think needs to be done is:

Electrify TransPennine routes and associated branchlines (thereby releasing the 170s and 185s)
High Speed Link from the North to England; ensure you can extend to Scotland in the future if needed
Skipton-Colne and any other obvioius "missing links"
Enhance commuter services in key English cities
Aberdeen Crossrail

I'd do these as a priority on top of ideas that are already out there, such as the Edinburgh-Glasgow service enhancement and electrification. Note that not one of these is exclusively Southern, although one does link into London.
 

Mojo

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But the domestic services on HS1 are serving an area that could really do with faster services. It takes on average 1h20m to go from London to Ashford, a journey of less than 60 miles. For a similar journey time on the long-distance/InterCity routes to the north you can go to Birmingham (~115 miles) or Newark (120 miles).
 

Techniquest

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Oh boo-hoo, Hereford to Birmingham is about 1h30m (unless via Shrub Hill) before any delays get factored in, and that's only 55 miles and 5 chains. Oh, and we get crammed-like-sardines 2-car 170s on the route just when we need 3-car 170s at the minimum to allow for breathing space.

What does London to Ashford get? 6 or more cars formed of 375s of various lengths. Never seen them full. Either way, whilst we struggle to find room to breath on our trains, they've got the luxury of trains that come at least close to satisfying the capacity requirements.

We have similar problems on the Marches too, 2-car 175s just when a 3-car one would solve problems. The amount of overcrowding has, at times, meant passengers are turned away from limited frequency Sunday trains. Absolutely criminal. But then ATW, LM and seemingly every other TOC outside of London can get away with it.

Before my rant continues, I'll finish with saying the South DOES get a LOT of bias towards it. EVERYWHERE is crying out for investment, NOT just the ****in' South East!<(
 

whoshotjimmi

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Yes, but what proportion of the population lives in the south? Although overcrowding is a problem all over the network, it is just as bad during the peaks in the South as it is up North. I'd also say that the network has more use down south, and as such the need for constant rebuilding etc is a must.

Typical southern attitude towards the world. If you provide an infrastructure for people to use, they will use it. Happily I would agree that journeys around London make up a large proportion, but proportion is mainly due to the number of services available and as Daccer rightly says, schemes to further enhance always get pushed through more quickly and with less objection when it comes to the London area. Looking at the North, you have Hull, York, Harrogate, Leeds, Bradford, Manchester, Sheffield, Doncaster, Salford, Wigan, Bolton, St Helens, Preston and Liverpool in about the same space as is covered by London commuter services. The potential for passenger use is huge. Skipton/Ilkley represents a great example of what can happen if you give people the infrastructure. Massive use on those lines.
 

bluenoxid

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50% of journeys are in the South, but why then do they get >50% of the investment? The North needs investment too. In fact, just as much. It's crazy that all the money is spent in the South when there's passengers in the North who get so much less. I'd hardly say that Skipton-Colne, a valuable link, is cheap in comparison to some other projects.

I'm not saying that London doesn't need all the above, but similar projects in the North are needed just as much. Just because the Houses of Parliament are in London doesn't mean it's the centre of the universe.

I'm glad to be in Scotland when it comes to railways; I'm sure SAK, A-B and other forthcoming projects wouldn't happen without a Scottish Parliament.

That's in the London area. They say 90% of journeys either start or finish in London and South East

OK fine, Skipton and Ilkley represent one side of the coin.

But Dunston, East Midlands Parkway and the South Hylton Metro extension prove the other side
 

Pumbaa

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Typical southern attitude towards the world.

Never will be a soft Southerner - lived in Stoke-on-Trent and Liverpool before, and will be going back to Liverpool as soon as I can!

My views were given *I feel* very objectively, coming from someone who has seen the benefits of improvements in both areas ie Merseyrail and SE.
 

eezypeazy

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The railways are merely symptomatic of the inescapable fact that there simply hasn't been enough investment in England's infrastructure in the past eleven years.

And I'll tell you why.

Since 1997, one man has controlled almost every aspect of public expenditure in England. Although he was "Number Two" for ten years, he cleverly transformed The Treasury, giving it the most power it has ever had to veto the spending plans of all other government departments. And having inherited a privatised railway (and, to this day, continuing to privatise public assets, with the notable exception of our failing banks!), he turned it into a micro-managed service, with the government specifying it down to the smallest detail. The same happens with our roads (my own County Council has enough cash to meet its stautory responsibilities, but little discretionary spending for such things as railways, roads and footpaths).

Now, if one man has been able to contrive to have so much power, surely his master stroke has been to do it in such a way that, while he has absolute power, he can claim that other people have the responsibility. The Bank of England is independent; the TOCs, FOCs, ROSCOs and Network Rail carry the can with the consumer, while having no option other than to do the Treasury's bidding, as transmitted to them via the DfT. Next, our part-nationalised banks will be having their lending policies reviewed by the FSA and their shareholders - er, the government. If you want a loan, you'd better ask Gordon to approve it!

And be careful not to be too critical in public, either. ISPs can be required to hand over records of your internet usage, if someone thinks what you're saying might in some way help a terrorist.

So, if you were in his shoes, and had absolute power, what would you do? You'd want to hold on to it! So, how will he do that? Firstly, he'll look after the seat of his own pants - or, rather, his own constituents - first. No surprise, then, that as there are more Scots in the cabinet than ever before, the Celtic Fringe does rather well. Next, it's marginal constituencies - those that The Party must retain or win to hold on to power in eighteen months' time. And where are they? The south east - the Party can rely on much of the north and Midlands to vote for them, whatever happens.

Hopefully, more and more people are waking up to the truth of the so-called "economic miracle" that we were sold at the last two general elections. It wasn't miraculous at all - it was fuelled by our own debt, a massive consumer spending spree, partly subsidised by cheap mortgages for everyone (encouraged by the politicians - funny, though, how it's the bankers who are carrying the can, when it was politicians on both sides of the Atlantic who egged them on). And if there truly had been a time of plenty, then the excess taxation that the government has been able to collect as a result was simply squandered on the politicians' own pet projects - including two wars - while manufacturing, farming and transport - three of the most basic necessities for a thriving economy - have been left to rot.

If that's an "economic miracle", I'd rather make a pact with the devil!

Let's face it, there is nothing a government can do to get us out of a recession - especially one which their own policies have contributed to with such devastating consequences! No government has ever "created" a single job - they simply raise and spend taxes. It's commerce and industry that truly creates jobs, by providing goods and services that people want. When governments micro-manage, they stifle creativity and entrepreneurship.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the root of the problem that the railways face. And the way that things are organised at the moment, there's little anyone can do about it. Network Rail has its budget micro-managed, resulting in very little "new" railway, and an awful lot of "make do and mend" maintenance (without compromising safety). The TOCs are micro-managed, so there's little incentive for creativity and entrepreneurship, especially as some of them have crippling financial levies to meet. The ROSCOs, despite having been the target of a venomous referral to the Competition Commission, came out of it as the "good guys", even though the system they operate within simply doesn't work - after all, if you're lucky enough to have a mortgage, you can have it over a 25-year term, whereas TOCs, needing to finance their trains, can only look forward to a seven to ten year franchise, despite needing to replace assets with a life expectancy of nearer 30.

The football analogy in an earlier posting is a good one - you need to invest to earn promotion to a higher division; you need to invest to win the Premier League; you need to invest to stay at the top. Once you stop, you're on a slippery slope, and when you reach the bottom of the Conference, you can't find the money to start again.

So where does all that leave us? The present government has no option other than to borrow money to invest in infrastructure projects, not just across transport, but across health, education and all the public services. Unfortunately, in this country we just can't move quickly enough for this alone to get us out of the recession - it's probably going to be about two years before the full effect is felt on the economy. Sadly for the present government,this will probably come just too late to win them the next general election. This will leave an incoming government with massive spending commitments it can't get out of; happily, this will be alleviated by the fact that the recession will be almost over, as new businesses, created by entrepreneurial individuals, will have sprung up to meet new consumer demands. At the same time, some of the older industries will be reviving - think about it: we can't put off replacing our cars forever! And there'll also be positive economic benefits from the 2012 Olympics, too.

Don't get me wrong. We're going to be paying the price of Gordon's "economic miracle" for a generation, as the country will have to spread repaying it's national debt over 15 or 25 years (just like we did after the second world war). The railways should, by about 2015, look and feel much more modern, but there's the rub - by only investing big every 18 to 25 years, the need for the next massive spend will be roughly in line with the economic cycle - ie., just as we're facing THE NEXT recession, all our trains will be wearing out!

There ARE "green shoots" of a recovery out there. Even if the economy shrinks by 4%, there's still 96% of it working! In fact, you could argue that there's never been a better time to start a new, small business - because the only way is up!

So, let's raise a glass to The Transport Professionals, and wish them all the luck in the world. Because, just as quickly as the recession has turned the transport "tap" off, the forthcoming upturn will want it turning back on again!

Regards

eezypeazy
 

MCR247

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^^^^^^^^Thats one long post, how long did that take to write. Or did you copy and paste?? :lol:
 

richa2002

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What does London to Ashford get? 6 or more cars formed of 375s of various lengths. Never seen them full. Either way, whilst we struggle to find room to breath on our trains, they've got the luxury of trains that come at least close to satisfying the capacity requirements.
I'm sure commuters from those areas would disagree with you.

The North has had:
Leeds redevelopment
Manchester Piccadilly redevelopment with Victoria soon?
Sheffield, Manchester and Nottingham trams, something London fails in except the Croydon Tramlink but that's hardly the city centre.

Sure there's more. But is time for 'Extreme Trains' on the Discovery channel. ;)
 

eezypeazy

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^^^^^^^^Thats one long post, how long did that take to write. Or did you copy and paste?? :lol:

Sorry, I was in "rant" mode... rest assured, all my own work!


Wife: "Our daughter was born into a Labour-governed country."

Husband: "Maybe, but she was conceived under a Tory!".


LOL

eezypeazy
 

Donny Dave

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The North has had:
Leeds redevelopment
Manchester Piccadilly redevelopment with Victoria soon?
Sheffield, Manchester and Nottingham trams, something London fails in except the Croydon Tramlink but that's hardly the city centre.

How long have the tram networks being in the 3 cities you mention?

Also, 2 station redevelopments - Hardly major investment is it?

While the South East commuters have longer and more frequent services, people up here have to cram into a 2 car pacer/sprinter every day.

Perhaps you should spend a few weeks up here to see how bad investment is needed instead of making a couple of flippant remarks on a forum!
 

jopsuk

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How long have the tram networks being in the 3 cities you mention?

Also, 2 station redevelopments - Hardly major investment is it?

While the South East commuters have longer and more frequent services, people up here have to cram into a 2 car pacer/sprinter every day.

Perhaps you should spend a few weeks up here to see how bad investment is needed instead of making a couple of flippant remarks on a forum!

But on the "load factor" measurements (ie how many more people are cramming on as a percentage of the nominal capacity), whilst some northern, rural western and welsh services do make it into the top tens (mainly because they are two-car sprinters), most are on south eastern routes, running eight or more cars long and at higher frequencies. From a utilitarian (ie greaest happiness for the greatest number) principle, solving the overcrowding of an 80% overcrowded eight car Networker is a greater priority than solving the overcrowding of an 80% overcrowded two-car Pacer.

On the other hand, I'm willing to bet that the latter is probably a hell of a lot cheaper and quciker a problem to solve, were the funding to be allocated.
 

whoshotjimmi

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I'm sure commuters from those areas would disagree with you.

The North has had:
Leeds redevelopment
Manchester Piccadilly redevelopment with Victoria soon?
Sheffield, Manchester and Nottingham trams, something London fails in except the Croydon Tramlink but that's hardly the city centre.

I would doubt if commuters from those areas knew what Leeds, Manchester and Sheffield are.

I spent quite a lot of time in West London during the "West London Tram" fiasco. The government approved the spend but the project was cancelled due to overwhelming public objection. Having seen the lengths some people went to object, i am not surprised. At about the same time, the government REJECTED spending a similar amount of money on trams in Leeds - a city that wanted them and one that, in fact, lost a number of large business contracts when the project was shelved. I would like to see that explained to me convincingly.

So far, no one has come up with a valid or convincing reason why horrendous amounts of money are spent in London whilst the rest of the country is left to cope with what it has.
 

Metroland

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Well the reason is the North's railways, for whatever reason, are comparatively underused. Sure there is a odd peak train, where people are crammed into class 153s and Pacers, but this pails into comparison with 8 or 12 car trains running into central London, packed to the gills. As an example, there is far, far more passengers between say Oxford and Reading, than say Sheffield and Manchester - even though both the former towns are much smaller.

As its been pointed out there is all sorts of demographic reasons for this, but it goes without saying if something isn't used as much, it doesn't get the expansion. Northern Rail and Scotrail are very heavily subsidised, which isn't the case with most L&SE TOCs. Before anyone points out, people won't use services unless they are there/improved. Remember the vast SR network, until recently, probably had the oldest and worst stock. There are many journeys in the South, especially the south Midlands that are simply not possible travelling east to west - yet. As a comparison there are 3 main lines across the Pennines - albeit with mechanical signalling and short DMUs - though the line speeds are comparative to many commuter lines in the south.

Going back to why the government doesn't spend more of transport, because generally it's not given enough importance by voters or the media. Even rail enthusiasts on this very forum have argued against improving services and many quite delight in using their cars and boast about it, and the same time wondering why rail services are not improved.

In the end use it or lose it, support it and get the benefits. To that end, there are probably many more rail user groups in the South who fight tooth and nail for better services. If you want better services, join a rail user group or lobby group, or start your own, and put your money where your mouth is.

Having said all of that, I still think £16billion spent on Crossrail is better spent on giving very substantial benefits all over the country - especially with electrification, line re-openings and resignalling. I also think a N-S HSL is essential to bridging the N/S divide- the government should aim to de-heat the South East.

Finally it is worth pointing out, per head, far more Government money is spent in the North and Scotland in particular, compared to income. In some areas, especially the North East, the government provide half or more of all jobs in some form.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ivide-How-South-East-bankrolling-Britain.html

'...analysis showed that each person in the South-East pays nearly £2,000 more to the Treasury than he or she receives back in public spending on services such as schools, hospitals and infrastructure projects.

It makes clear that the billions poured by Labour into the Health Service over the past five years have gone to the parts of the country which contribute less in taxes.
Health spending in the South last year was nearly 8 per cent lower than the national average - £1,189 a head compared with £1,281.
It was 14 per cent lower than in the North of England. In some areas the difference between taxation and health spending was particularly dramatic.
In Wokingham, one of the highest tax-paying boroughs in the South, spending on local hospitals per head was 71 per cent lower than in North Manchester.'

BTW, I am a midlander/East Anglian who has lived in both the north and the south, with family from both ends of the country, before any accusations of bias take place.
 

tbtc

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This is the kind of argument that goes round and round in circles.

However, if there is to be investment in railways in the north of England, then there's a lot more pressing lines to reopen than Skipton to Colne. The Woodhead line? The Leamside line? Electrifying some of the gaps around Manchester?

Investment in the north isn't at the expense of in the south (or vice versa) - we should be demanding both.
 

daccer

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11 Feb 2009
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373
This argument will go on and on for the simple reason that there is no joined up rail stategy for this country. The railways are mere pawns in the political shenanigans our our so called leaders. There are however some indisputable facts. The network in the South east is a lot more comprehensive than anywhere else in the country. Demand on this network is very high leading to overcrowding etc - a virtuous circle of high demand leading to more investment etc. However any additions to this network are just duplications of what is already in place. Javelins offer an alternative service from the South East, Crossrail offers an alternative service to the LU, Thameslink offers an alternative through service rather than having to change at London terminii. So having these alternatives is great for Southern commuters and good luck to them for making enough noise to ensure capcity constraints are met. However for everybody else the alternative to rail use is the car. So if you cant get in you 2 car Pacer at Leeds you either wait for the next one in an hour or you say bugger it and drive. Surely the investmnet needs to go where the biggest latent demand is. Adding capacity in the South is commendable and there is a very valid argument for doing so to relieve congestion. If it was done as part of an overall package for rail development then noone would argue. However it is not done that way - it is done piecemeal trying to keep happy those that squeek the loudest like a nest of hungry chicks fighting over the worm. Ebbw Vale and Alloa show the demand that exists elsewhere for decent rail services. You cant tell me that Leeds-Manchester is a mature rail corridor that has reached its maximum usage. Or Sheffield- Manchester or Livepool-Glasgow (where there is not even a direct service) doesnt have latent demand. Is it only me that feels that the railways shouldnt be used as an instrument of political expediency. Even the formula for re-opening lines seems skewed. If there were a whole bunch of line sdown south crying out for reopening would this formula not be reworked to allow reopening. Uckfield-Lewes is about the only one I can think off in the South East compared to dozens of worthwhile projects in the rest of the country.

We will go round and round in circles (hopefully virtuous ones) until a proper rail strategy is devised. I worked for BR in the late 80's and it was a creaking monster then obviously in its death throws. However it was still allowed to run itself and so in a way had a free hand to operate a national rail strategy albeit one that was basically managed decline. This mean that projects did get judged on their merits and not because of outside influences - they were almost universally dropped but that was because there was no money not for any other nefarious reason.

If any of us think the railways are not just a political plaything then ask yoursleves this one important question - how on earth did we get to the ridiculous setup we have today with NR and Roscos and FOC's and TOC's and the ORR and devolved control in Wales and Scotland and an escalating incremental price for a network that is 20% more inefficient than its counterparts in Europe. Surely only a politican could have made such a cock up.
 

jopsuk

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13 May 2008
Messages
12,774
Surely only a politican could have made such a cock up.

It's far more than one politician can achieve on their own- it's a whole succession of politicians that have done the damage...
 

Kneedown

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Joined
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Nottinghamshire
There is a school of thought that the East Midlands lags behind both the south and the north in terms of investment.
I've always thought that East Midlanders are regarded as being not posh enough to be regarded as southerners, and not working class enough to be regarded as northerners.
I read somewhere recently, i don't recall where though, that Nottingham was one of the biggest contributors to the national economy and yet we have a very second rate transport infrastructure. Ok, so we have a tram, but it only benefits those who happen to live on the one route between Hucknall/Phoenix Park and Nottingham. East Midlands Parkway has just opened, well "Whoopee ****ing doo!", another development that benefits only a small minority of people in the area.
Crossrail and the "new" Thameslink (whats wrong with the old one?) will benefit only a small minority of people in the country no matter how much the south screams that they need it, despite the fact that they've managed perfectly well without it so far, so the money, was it £16billion?, should be invested instead on projects that will benefit the nation as a whole. That £16 billion would electrify the entire national passenger network and provide the stock to run on it. Ultimately it's the people of Britain who will be paying for it, so it's only fair that it benefits the people of Britain, rather than a minority in the south.
 

daccer

Member
Joined
11 Feb 2009
Messages
373
I am originally a Kettering boy and spent most of my life in the midlands before moving abroad. I think the east Mids is north of Watford and so would be classed by many southeners as being in the North. I am sure there are many good reasons for Thameslink and Crossrail but the pricetags come to nearly 20 billion. This is to provide alternatives to existing services. Stick 20bn into the rest of the network and we would see benefits that would revolutionise the way rail is viewed and used by those of us who dont live in Suburbia. How many reopened lines and new trains never mind electrification does 20 billion buy. It is a simplified argument I know as much of the funding is coming from London bodies but the needs of Northern passengers should not be subservient to those down South. It should be a level playing field nto skewed to one side or another. If Scotland and Wales can do it why cant the English?
 

Metroland

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Joined
20 Jul 2005
Messages
3,212
Location
Midlands
There is a joined up business plan, its published here

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/4451.aspx

As I said, if you want improved services you need to:

1) Use them. This might seem like an obvious point, but we could have the best railway system in the world if people used it.

2) Support it. I remember starting threads (such as re-open Woodhead) on this very forum, and got no-end of stick from several forum members. Indeed, I get people ranting at me on MSN and on here, saying I'm a 'greeny' and 'you're just trying to get us out of our cars', for supporting rail projects, or defending the railways. If that is the level of debate on a forum where people are supposed to know about [rail] transport, lord help the general populace.

3) Identify which projects need doing, set up pressure groups or join others, write to your MP. Again maybe an obvious point, but on this very thread not many projects have been identified and adequately argued for. The whole thread is very much a 'chip on the shoulder' augment we hear these days, where the world owes me a living and if I want something then I have a right to it or there is some conspiracy going on, when if people actually bothered to look into things, much of it is decided through consumer choice and the economic system people vote for.

There are two main national groups for supporting rail and public transport, they are:

http://www.railfuture.org.uk/tiki-page.php?pageName=RailFuture

http://www.bettertransport.org.uk/

There are many local groups, both passenger interest groups such as

http://www.clpg.co.uk/

and many others, or rail project groups like

http://www.norfolk-orbital-railway.co.uk/

and many preservation groups

Take time to look them up and give them your support. I'm a member of none of them, nor want to lead the argument or tell people what to do, but there is my humble suggestion aimed at the forum in general.
 
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