Southern Advance - Cancelled Train help

[blakey1152]

Good Afternoon,
I'm writing this on behalf of a friend and her mum who have had an issue with their train journey today.

They had Southern advance tickets for £5 from St Leonards Warrior Square to London Victoria on the 1528 train.
This service was cancelled and they were told they would have to wait for the next Southern service into Victoria - However, if they did that they would miss their return coach from Victoria to Birmingham which would be of no help at all.

They were told at the station that the advanced tickets even though the train was cancelled would not be valid on the next Southeastern service towards London unless they paid for another ticket.
Not having much choice they have paid for 2 x excess tickets at £21.50 each which have been stapled to their original ticket in order to get back to London on time.

They bought the tickets through the trainline which did e-mail them to tell them their train has been cancelled and offered a refund of the £5 advance tickets.

I am a bit surprised as considering that their train was cancelled that they were not permitted to use Southeastern instead.

They asked on the train and the conductor who checked their tickets on the Southeastern service says they won't be able to get a refund on the excess ticket

Can someone offer any advice on what they can do - seems very unfair that for a reason that is out of their control they have had to pay £43 to get back to London

p.s wasn't sure if it should go into this forum or the post ticket one - please move if its wrong!

 

[realemil]

They were told at the station that the advanced tickets even though the train was cancelled would not be valid on the next Southeastern service towards London unless they paid for another ticket.
Not having much choice they have paid for 2 x excess tickets at £21.50 each which have been stapled to their original ticket in order to get back to London on time.

Unfortunately, these are the rules. If they had an advanced ticket that was locked into a specific operator (in this case Southern), they are only permitted to travel on Southern.

They would've had to wait for the next available service by Southern.

They bought the tickets through the trainline which did e-mail them to tell them their train has been cancelled and offered a refund of the £5 advance tickets.

They can indeed claim a refund of those tickets, however, they can also attempt to claim Delay Repay from Southern.

If you email Southern's customer support team, attach all of the tickets and explain the issue, saying you had to pay excess and whatnot, they may offer a 'goodwill gesture'.

Can someone offer any advice on what they can do - seems very unfair that for a reason that is out of their control they have had to pay £43 to get back to London

Sadly, the coach is not covered by any part of the train tickets. This is a situation of 'you should've had more time in London and planned for delays'.

Personally, I would shoot my shot with delay repay and see if I can get it, if not then I'd suck it up and move on.

 

[Class800]

The staff behaviour was within the rules, but unreasonably obstinate. In this situation, potentially contacting customer services could lead to a goodwill gesture. Phrasing it will be crucial - need to be polite, need to explain the broader situation, need to discuss the situation and who said what - and ultimately the call for a goodwill gesture could be based on staff failing to apply due discretion to help passengers in a situation that is not of the passengers' making. The railway should be doing everything possible to help displaced passengers and it did not. This is not a legal right, but a customer service issue - hence it is a request for goodwill gesture.

 

[StarCrossing]

They can indeed claim a refund of those tickets, however, they can also attempt to claim Delay Repay from Southern.

You need to be a little bit careful here. I suspect the Trainline's offer of a refund was based on the £5 tickets not being used. In the end, they were used as part-payment for the £26.50 tickets that were eventually obtained via an excess. Also be careful with delay repay - they can only claim this if they actually arrived later than planned. If they took the next Southeastern service then I suspect they arrived earlier than planned!

Unless they were actually delayed enough to claim delay repay, I suggest following the advice in post #3.

 

[Fokx]

The staff behaviour was within the rules, but unreasonably obstinate.

In YOUR opinion.

As you have stated there is no right for South Eastern to offer a goodwill gesture at all, the railway staff followed the rules of the ticket shown.

 

[Class800]

Everything stated is an opinion. I think the staff were intolerably obstinate. And failed to put the passenger first following disruption. This is a clear case in my opinion for goodwill and this should be requested via the relevant customer services

 

[Haywain]

What complicates matters slightly, is that tickets routed 'AP Southern only' should not be excesses to allow travel on another train company. The staff at St Leonards 'helped' issuing those excess fares but could have created even more problems.

 

[island]

The staff behaviour was within the rules, but unreasonably obstinate. In this situation, potentially contacting customer services could lead to a goodwill gesture. Phrasing it will be crucial - need to be polite, need to explain the broader situation, need to discuss the situation and who said what - and ultimately the call for a goodwill gesture could be based on staff failing to apply due discretion to help passengers in a situation that is not of the passengers' making. The railway should be doing everything possible to help displaced passengers and it did not. This is not a legal right, but a customer service issue - hence it is a request for goodwill gesture.

The staff allowed a goodwill gesture of excessing tickets routed Southern Only for travel other than on Southern, and not charging the usual admin fee for changing an advance ticket (although it is not clear whether the change was requested before or after departure).

It would be bad customer service to full fare paying Southeastern passengers to allow someone holding a ticket that cost less than 20% of the fare to travel without any extra cost.

Passengers' onward non-rail connections are no concern of the railway.

 

[Class800]

I agree with Haywain's point that the company restriction cannot be excessed unlike a route code restriction. In my opinion, the best course of action would have been for St Leonards WS station to issue a 'back on track' coupon noting the issue and ticking the relevant box for onward travel via another operator's services. I personally would not claim delay repay or anything else to avoid double claims, would focus on the customer service issue.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The staff allowed a goodwill gesture of excessing tickets routed Southern Only for travel other than on Southern, and not charging the usual admin fee for changing an advance ticket (although it is not clear whether the change was requested before or after departure).

It would be bad customer service to full fare paying Southeastern passengers to allow someone holding a ticket that cost less than 20% of the fare to travel without any extra cost.

Passengers' onward non-rail connections are no concern of the railway.

...is the attitude problem the railway so often exhibits.

Good customer service would be to allow travel. The disruption is not the passenger's fault.

 

[Class800]

Passengers' onward non-rail connections are no concern of the railway.

A terrible attitude that pervades the rail industry. There may be no legal right - but as humans we should take into account other humans' wellbeing and circumstances, hoping that they will help us when we are the ones who need help

 

[30907]

Ironically, a taxi to Bexhill, where the train started on time, would have been cheaper if they wished to avoid a 30 minute delay.

 

[Western Sunset]

This is where, to put it bluntly, service to customers stinks. The marginal cost to let them travel by South Eastern would've been zilch.

 

[nanstallon]

This is just the piffly wiffling nonsense that privatisation leads us to. As far as Joe Public is concerned, the railway is the railway, and distinctions between different companies are an unwanted complication.

 

[Fokx]

The disruption is not the passenger's fault.

It’s also not Southeastern’s either in this scenario

You wouldn’t expect this of airlines, buses or coach companies so I do find it strange when passengers expect this of the railway

 

[realemil]

You need to be a little bit careful here. I suspect the Trainline's offer of a refund was based on the £5 tickets not being used. In the end, they were used as part-payment for the £26.50 tickets that were eventually obtained via an excess. Also be careful with delay repay - they can only claim this if they actually arrived later than planned. If they took the next Southeastern service then I suspect they arrived earlier than planned!

Unless they were actually delayed enough to claim delay repay, I suggest following the advice in post #3.

Apologizes! Wasn't aware that the £26.50 was an excess ticket.

In that case, yes, unless you were delayed by over the minimum threshold required to claim DR, trying to obtain a goodwill gesture is your only way to go.

Everything stated is an opinion. I think the staff were intolerably obstinate. And failed to put the passenger first following disruption. This is a clear case in my opinion for goodwill and this should be requested via the relevant customer services

Unfortunately - it's their job. They could've 'allowed travel', but would they have been allowed to for another TOC?

 

[Fokx]

In my opinion, the best course of action would have been for St Leonards WS station to issue a 'back on track' coupon noting the issue and ticking the relevant box for onward travel via another operator's services.

You can’t derestrict a restricted ticket for travel for another TOC using a ‘back on track’ unless ticket acceptance is in place

 

[Class800]

You can’t derestrict a restricted ticket for travel for another TOC using a ‘back on track’ unless ticket acceptance is in place

I've had it done

I've also had Station Manager's letter - which would probably have been best as the station is a Southeastern station

Back to the OP, I would suggest a customer service matter be raised seeking goodwill.

 

[Haywain]

Ironically, a taxi to Bexhill, where the train started on time, would have been cheaper if they wished to avoid a 30 minute delay.

To do that there would need to be an awareness that the train was starting at Bexhill and sufficient time to get there by taxi.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Nov 2021 ==

They were told at the station that the advanced tickets even though the train was cancelled would not be valid on the next Southeastern service towards London unless they paid for another ticket.
Not having much choice they have paid for 2 x excess tickets at £21.50 each which have been stapled to their original ticket in order to get back to London on time.

Could you clarify what train they actually travelled on?

 

[30907]

To do that there would need to be an awareness that the train was starting at Bexhill and sufficient time to get there by taxi.

Yes, I realise that - station staff should (!) have known the arrangement in good time, but if the travellers turned up close to departure that wouldn't have worked.

I assume they caught the SE train a few minutes after the booked SN train.

 

[paul1609]

In reality when the 15.28 was cancelled (points failure) the next Southern Service would have been the 16.00 to Brighton which has a connection at Hampden Park Sussex that gets in to Victoria at 18.05, 30 mins late.
The next Southeastern service gets you to Charing Cross where you have to walk to the District Line at Embankment and where the official connection to Victoria gets you there at 17.51.
The offer of the next Southern train in the context of a £5 ticket plus 30 mins delay replay seems quite reasonable to me.

 

[blakey1152]

In reality when the 15.28 was cancelled (points failure) the next Southern Service would have been the 16.00 to Brighton which has a connection at Hampden Park Sussex that gets in to Victoria at 18.05, 30 mins late.
The next Southeastern service gets you to Charing Cross where you have to walk to the District Line at Embankment and where the official connection to Victoria gets you there at 17.51.
The offer of the next Southern train in the context of a £5 ticket plus 30 mins delay replay seems quite reasonable to me.

In theory at least but my friend has no knowledge of the railway network in that area so unless it was mentioned by staff they wouldn't have known that this connection could have been made.

 

[Starmill]

I am a bit surprised as considering that their train was cancelled that they were not permitted to use Southeastern instead.

Unfortunately it's not a surprise. Most companies in this situation will choose to tell the customer to wait and pay out compensation for the delay rather than have them arriving on time or early by using the service of another train company.

 

[Class800]

Unfortunately it's not a surprise. Most companies in this situation will choose to tell the customer to wait and pay out compensation for the delay rather than have them arriving on time or early by using the service of another train company.

Maybe. I think it depends on the companies. Down here GWR and XC fairly frequently help each other during disruption - mutual ticket acceptance in times of disruption is common.

 

[Starmill]

It would be bad customer service to full fare paying Southeastern passengers to allow someone holding a ticket that cost less than 20% of the fare to travel without any extra cost.

No it wouldn't. GTR sold the tickets at a price they chose. It's therefore up to management at GTR to provide what they agreed to. If they cannot do so in accordance with the original plan, and organise the use of alternative transport, whether that's a bus, taxi or another train is no concern of anyone travelling unrelatedly on Southeastern.

The only situation in which what you're getting at might come into play would be if the Southeastern trains in question were already running at capacity, and accepting displaced passengers might cause those who had originally been due to travel on Southeastern to be left behind on the platform. Was that in play here?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Nov 2021 ==

Maybe. I think it depends on the companies. Down here GWR and XC fairly frequently help each other during disruption - mutual ticket acceptance in times of disruption is common.

Indeed. Actions vary when there's only one group of disrupted passengers, even on the same route. For example, generally for one set of displaced customers TransPennine Express and East Midlands Railway between Manchester or Stockport and Sheffield will have ticket acceptance in place with one another. For a single cancellation or incident of customers left behind Northern will generally ask you to wait for the next Northern service, even if that's in two hours' time.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Nov 2021 ==

In theory at least but my friend has no knowledge of the railway network in that area so unless it was mentioned by staff they wouldn't have known that this connection could have been made.

Station staff would be expected to provide that information. It's the very basics. All by itself this would be grounds for a complaint.

 

[Western Sunset]

You can do the thing right, eg by the book, which railways, by their very nature, are a procedure-bound organisation
or
You can do the right thing

 

[paul1609]

In theory at least but my friend has no knowledge of the railway network in that area so unless it was mentioned by staff they wouldn't have known that this connection could have been made.

What time was their coach from Victoria Coach Station?

 

[Kilopylae]

You can do the thing right, eg by the book, which railways, by their very nature, are a procedure-bound organisation
or
You can do the right thing

Exactly. The rules clearly have no moral force here, and it's appalling customer service to make someone pay almost £25.00 not to miss their coach because you, the TOC, couldn't run a train on time. If Southern refuse to refund the tickets perhaps have a go at whining to the local press.

 

[Watershed]

It’s also not Southeastern’s either in this scenario

You wouldn’t expect this of airlines, buses or coach companies so I do find it strange when passengers expect this of the railway

Because the railway has historically been one organisation, provides a subsidised public service and has been under the direct or indirect control (and financing) of the government since at least the Second World War.

The fact that today's railway is split up into different franchises with employees wearing different colour uniforms is neither here nor there as far as the average person on the street is concerned.

Comparisons with the bus, coach or airline industries bring to mind apples and oranges... The majority of such services are run on an unsubsidised, commercial basis, and in many areas there is genuine economic competition between companies, as opposed to the artificial competition which exists in a handful of areas on the railway.

With the honourable exception of the National Bus Company, these services have also never operated under a single national brand.

Still, I'm sure you would insist on paying the full public fare if you travelled on another TOC.

 

[Starmill]

It’s also not Southeastern’s either in this scenario

You wouldn’t expect this of airlines, buses or coach companies so I do find it strange when passengers expect this of the railway

There seems to be a certain proportion of railway staff who expect to be permitted to travel for free on some trains despite not having the right to do so because they work on "the railway" and do have the right to travel for free on a small proportion of trains only. That tends to be viewed as a sensible, albeit incorrect technically, interpretation. But of course to the average member of the public such interpretation is not as frequently applied.