Southern add 40 vehicles to order

[YorkshireBear]

Roger Ford on twitter reporting a press release from southern stating that they are adding 40 carriges to the order from bombardier, with them being dual voltage stock.

 

[MK Tom]

Roger Ford on twitter reporting a press release from southern stating that they are adding 40 carriges to the order from bombardier, with them being dual voltage stock.

Could this mean 8 car sets to MKC?

 

[Lrd]

Could this mean 8 car sets to MKC?

I thought that was happening anyway? Just can't yet because of short platforms on the West London Line.

Roger Ford on twitter reporting a press release from southern stating that they are adding 40 carriges to the order from bombardier, with them being dual voltage stock.

According to @PaulCliftonBBC this is from a press release in an email. He is also claiming Southern want to add another 216 carriages.

 

[YorkshireBear]

According to @PaulCliftonBBC this is from a press release in an email. He is also claiming Southern want to add another 216 carriages.

Yep same source.

Could they be ordering dual stock to plan for any future 3rd rail conversions?

 

[D365]

Thinking ahead I see (for the inevitably continuing Thameslink saga!) - would the full order, along with 377s which may come back from Thameslink, replace the 313s, 442s and 455s/456s; if the latter is not in the next few years? I was personally thinking a 6-car, 110mph-tested dual-voltage 377/7 might be useful for BML expresses?

 

[HSTEd]

Wouldn't ordering both 40 new vehicles and 216 new vehicles (so 64 4-car set equivalents in total) allow them to effectively eliminate all the electric stock they have which is not Class 377s, apart from maybe the Class 455s?

 

[D365]

With this subsequent calculation, I assume that the 24 456s will be replaced by the 26 377/6s confirmed, the rest going to capacity enhancement/covering for FCC 377s, and a double 5-car 442 set is equivalent to a triple 4-car or a hypothetical double 6-car 377 set.

Southern's non-377 fleet (aside from the 171s and 456s) compromise 19 3-car 313s, 24 5-car but 23m 442s and 46 455/8s. If we assume that the 40+216 377s become 64 4-car sets, quoting from HSTEd, the 442s would be replaced by 36 of the new build, leaving 28. This would be enough to replace the 313s, but since they seem to have had a decent refurbishment and are AC-proofed, I will forget about them for now. With the 26 377s due to return from Thameslink, the 54 left would be enough to replace the 455s, unless the returnees or at least part of the new build are committed to capacity enhancement.

 

[Chris125]

Could they be ordering dual stock to plan for any future 3rd rail conversions?

It wouldn't hurt but with further 3rd rail conversions unlikely before CP6 i'd be surprised if that was the driving force behind it - even if it was the existing Electrostar and 313 fleet are (or can be) 'dual voltage'.

That said with Southampton services likely to need dual voltage stock in the coming years i guess there could be a case for taking the opportunity to use new stock on the Coastway services, especially if more capacity is needed anyway.

Chris

 

[hwl]

With this subsequent calculation, I assume that the 24 456s will be replaced by the 26 377/6s confirmed, the rest going to capacity enhancement/covering for FCC 377s, and a double 5-car 442 set is equivalent to a triple 4-car or a hypothetical double 6-car 377 set.

Southern's non-377 fleet (aside from the 171s and 456s) compromise 19 3-car 313s, 24 5-car but 23m 442s and 46 455/8s. If we assume that the 40+216 377s become 64 4-car sets, quoting from HSTEd, the 442s would be replaced by 36 of the new build, leaving 28. This would be enough to replace the 313s, but since they seem to have had a decent refurbishment and are AC-proofed, I will forget about them for now. With the 26 377s due to return from Thameslink, the 54 left would be enough to replace the 455s, unless the returnees or at least part of the new build are committed to capacity enhancement.

This has whiff of amalgamation with Thameslink not being sorted out any time soon...

From recollections of previous threads:
The 377/6s (5car) are only partially replacing the 456s most of which actually spend their time as part of 8 car line ups with 455s if they were used to convert 8car diagrams to 10 car then there would be a shortage of stock overall (- 24 x 2 cars vs +26 x 5 cars so net improvement of ~3cars per unit).

The 377/6 order was to enable circa 2/3rds (not all) of the rush hour metro services to be extended from 8 car to 10 car (mainly routes via Balham). So for me this extra 40 vehicle order allows an extra 4 rush hour diagrams to be extended to 10 car, (which still leaves some as 8 car).

(New LBG terminating platforms have been confirmed as 5x12 car and 1x10car since the original order was planned which might explain the additional small order??)

Expected life expiry:
455s would be 2019-2024 so this might be a little early
442s (having recovered 4REP electrical equipment...) would be 2017 assuming electrical equipment is the limiting factor at the very latest. Best to assume they are overdue replacement as the electrical gear is 45 already.
313s would be 2011-2016 so the timing is right but they have recently refurbished.

So with the extra 216 they are probably looking to replace the 313s and 442s while they can get compatible electrostars, have rolling stock to do 8 car to MKC and lengthen some of the rest of the remaining 8 car metro services inc more to LBG?

The return of the TL units would still leave then 80 cars short to replace the 455s...

So what to do with those:
About the right number to electrify some diesel lines
Move some 377(ex5)s (back) to Southeastern (also Govia run).



The southern metro platform extensions and the additional sidings at Selhurst to be used by the 377/6s seem to be proceeds at a decent pace finally.

 

[Lrd]

The 455s are about to be refreshed again soon aren't they?

 

[bronzeonion]

According to a friend of mine who is a Southern apprentice the new 377's will have 2+2 seating throughout with the 'comfy seats' already fitted to 377's.

 

[D365]

Is the 2+2 seating a sign of 442 replacement? Sudden thoughts tbh, but could refurbished 319s and/or 365s (with new traction, interiors etc.) be useful south of London post-700?

 

[bronzeonion]

Is the 2+2 seating a sign of 442 replacement? Sudden thoughts tbh, but could refurbished 319s and/or 365s (with new traction, interiors etc.) be useful south of London post-700?

Doubt it I've never heard of anything like that but perhaps they might actually pool different subclasses for different services to stop those /1's with the crap seats in the middle area of each coach ending up on a Brighton or Portsmouth service.

Why is everyone so keen on reusing 319's?! 365's would be alright though.

 

[neilm]

Well the 442s are on gatwick express so 2+2 would make sense.

 

[northwichcat]

Could they be ordering dual stock to plan for any future 3rd rail conversions?

In theory there's no reason why DC only 377s can't later have a pantograph added.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

According to @PaulCliftonBBC this is from a press release in an email. He is also claiming Southern want to add another 216 carriages.

Are we certain it's Southern who want the extra carriages?

The additional carriages on the original 377 order (compared to the number being used by Thameslink) turned out to be to allow a future cascade of 456s to SWT, not for Southern to gain carriages.

 

[Class377/5]

Or maybe its linked to the new Southern and FCC joint services from Dec 2014 with routes and stock displaced this order makes sense.

 

[HSTEd]

Why do I get the feeling the Class 700 order is teeting on the edge of the abyss.....

Will have to see if FCC start to order new stock any time soon.....

Could be seeing the Cl377 become the Cl700 stand in..

 

[G_A_C_C_C]

Anyone know if the extra 40 are 10x4 or 8x5? As these are an add on to the existing x5 order I would assume them to also be x5 ... but you I've given up trying to second guess DaFT...

 

[swt_passenger]

The return of the TL units would still leave then 80 cars short to replace the 455s.

Which is fairly insignificant in the overall scheme of things given the substantial number of ex 'Southern' services to be operated by Thameslink new stock in the combined franchise?

 

[northwichcat]

From recollections of previous threads:
The 377/6s (5car) are only partially replacing the 456s most of which actually spend their time as part of 8 car line ups with 455s if they were used to convert 8car diagrams to 10 car then there would be a shortage of stock overall (- 24 x 2 cars vs +26 x 5 cars so net improvement of ~3cars per unit).

The 377/6 order was to enable circa 2/3rds (not all) of the rush hour metro services to be extended from 8 car to 10 car (mainly routes via Balham). So for me this extra 40 vehicle order allows an extra 4 rush hour diagrams to be extended to 10 car, (which still leaves some as 8 car).

Wikipedia uses different working out

On 8 May 2012 it was confirmed by the Transport Secretary Justine Greening through the DfT that the entire fleet of Class 456s will transfer across to South West Trains, where they will be used in conjunction with their Class 455 Fleet on the London Inner Suburban lines. SWT will be using the 456's to enhance peak hour Waterloo-Woking,Guildford via Cobham,& Kingston loop services from 8 to 10 coaches,& to provide 2 additional morning peak services from Raynes Park to Waterloo. These changes will happen from December 2014,once platforms 1-5 at Waterloo have been extended.

The Southern services on the South London Line will be withdrawn and replaced by a new London Overground service operated using new air conditioned trains [4] which Modern Railways magazine reports will be 4 car Class 378 units. Southern are also due to get 130 new carriages by December 2013, in place of 92 cascaded carriages promised for extra capacity.[5] This gives a total of 50 replacement carriages in addition to the 92 carriages for extra capacity, leaving the 48 Class 456 carriages surplus to requirements at Southern.

 

[hwl]

Which is fairly insignificant in the overall scheme of things given the substantial number of ex 'Southern' services to be operated by Thameslink new stock in the combined franchise?

I had been having thought along those lines as well but was unsure how the numbers would play out as there are plenty of existing services that could be lengthened if more platform lengthening outside the current programme was to occur. 377s have SDO and 455 don't so is this a sign they will want to lenghten more platforms on routes where a good number of stations couldn't be lengthened then SDO on more trains would be needed to make it worth while.

Given the 377s have better acceleration (with the extra power requirements too...) than the 455s would this allow some timetable improvements in the form of more services if every thing was 377?

As some of the rush hour services that could be 10 car would end up still being 8 car as the the previous order wasn't quite big enough, I guess would be the extra 40 being 8 x 5 car or we are in for yet another sub-class.

Any new on the progress building the original batch of 377/6s?

 

[Class377/5]

Any new on the progress building the original batch of 377/6s?

First 377/6 is due at Southern in January. No other news on them yet but safe to assume first body is built.

Why do I get the feeling the Class 700 order is teeting on the edge of the abyss.....

Will have to see if FCC start to order new stock any time soon.....

Could be seeing the Cl377 become the Cl700 stand in..

Just like was originally planned. Original plan for KO1 (Dec 2011) was fir additional rolling stock around about 20-25 four car units worth prior to the new generation trains. Well back in 2088 that was the plan.

Just to note FCC is never ordering new stock. Its being given new stock as it was Southern who arranged the 377's and DfT the 700's.

 

[ushawk]

Wouldn't be surprised if some of the new 5-car 377s to be ordered will replace the 442s, would expect them to be much like the 379s on the Stansted Express.

377s would be much better than the 442s anyway. Also wouldn't be surprised if they want to lengthen Sussex Coast/Brighton/Bognor services so they are always 12 car.

 

[Class377/5]

Southern's press release:

Procurement of New Rolling Stock
Date: 15 Nov 2012

Southern is pleased to announce two significant developments. Firstly, with the approval of the Department for Transport, it intends to exercise an existing option for 40 new Electrostar carriages from train manufacturer Bombardier, a run on to its 130 carriage order announced at the end of last year. Separately, Southern is developing proposals with the Department for a new procurement competition for 116 electric (dual voltage) new rolling stock vehicles, with an option for a further 100.

The procurement of 40 new carriages will enable additional capacity on the Southern network as well as a cascade of rolling stock around the wider network.

The new procurement competition will assist the Department's ability to address the wider rolling stock needs of the country.

Southern Managing Director Chris Burchell said "I am pleased that Southern is able to assist the Department in introducing additional capacity. The potential new order for 116 carriages will be exciting news for train manufacturers and for passengers".


The option for 40 new vehicles from Bombardier appears in the manufacture and supply agreement (the “MSA”) for the order of 130 Electrostar vehicles from Bombardier announced by Southern on 28 December 2011. This order was placed by Southern with Bombardier following a competitive process that began in September 2011 with the issue of a pre-qualification questionnaire on the rail Link-Up system for 130 new vehicles which was followed up with tender documentation which included the option for 40 further vehicles. The MSA provides that the option for the further 40 vehicles expires on 31 December 2012. The 40 vehicles will be in 5 car formation with dual voltage configuration, will cost c£60 million in total and it is expected that they will be delivered during 2014 for service entry in December of that year.

The 40 option vehicle order takes advantage of the price and timescales agreed with Bombardier in the rolling stock order placed in December 2011.


This means that passengers will benefit from the extra capacity offered at the earliest opportunity.

The funding for the 40 vehicles has been lined up. (Southern recently announced that Porterbrook Leasing Company has been selected as preferred bidder, again following a competitive process, for the necessary financing of the original rolling stock order as provided under the MSA. This preferred bidder status relates to both the initial order of 130 vehicles and any further order of 40 vehicles pursuant to exercise of the option in the MSA).

The potential competition for 116 electric (dual voltage) new rolling stock vehicles, with an option for a further 100 vehicles, would be openly tendered via the rail Link-Up system. The new rolling stock will be of dual voltage configuration and is required to operate up to 110 mph. Any rolling stock manufacturer registered on the rail Link-Up system would be able to compete for this opportunity.

Completion of the order would be reliant on the Department for Transport accepting the business case for the new vehicles and agreeing consequential amendments to Southern’s franchise agreement.

http://www.southernrailway.com/southern/news/procurement-of-new-rolling-stock/

 

[hwl]

Southern's press release:



http://www.southernrailway.com/southern/news/procurement-of-new-rolling-stock/

Interesting that cascading is prominently mentioned:
a ) is it just a further mention of the 456 transfer to SWT
b ) are a few more 4 car 377s going to be transferred to TL to plug the "700" gap for while.

or assuming the new 116(+100) options

c ) would it allow the recently refurbished dual voltage 3 car 313s to plug the gap in stock for electrification schemes (as the 319s will arrive late from TL) for several years, and some more "700" late arrival service bolstering.

Is southern just a proxy for Govia franchises in general as regards the 116+100 discussions?

 

[northwichcat]

If DfT have any sense they will let Southern order additional dual-voltage units on condition that they will sub-lease them to fill any gaps until additional rolling stock is ready for the newly electrified North West and Thames Valley routes.

 

[swt_passenger]

If DfT have any sense they will let Southern order additional dual-voltage units on condition that they will sub-lease them to fill any gaps until additional rolling stock is ready for the newly electrified North West and Thames Valley routes.

Isn't that possibly what this sentence implies:

The new procurement competition will assist the Department's ability to address the wider rolling stock needs of the country

 

[jopsuk]

With all this, I'd still rather see the Metro routes on Southern run using some sort of development of the 376/378- perhaps just 378s with the 376 seating layout- and at least branded as LO, even if run run by Southern rather than LOROL. But then I don't hold the purse strings.

(I'd also, despite the lack of compatibility with the Siemens and Alsthom stock otherwise used, get such things for South West "Metro" services, and bulk up the Southeastern Metro fleet to send Networkers entirely on their mid-distance routes- all metro too be run by LOROL)

 

[Chris125]

Looking at that press release i think there's a good argument for these extra units being intended to help cascade some of the 319 fleet in advance of the 700's, though the 110mph requirement does raise questions over whether the Electrostar design is suitable and where they could end up long-term.

Chris

 

[HSTEd]

If this 110mph design is an Electrostar type train with the attendent relatively light build, that has important implications for the TPE and XC electric orders.

Its almost a pity the Electrostar can't have end doors....