Southern 313

[jon0844]

How much easier would all this cascading of stock be if every train had a standard livery and interior - and minimal branding from the company running any one franchise.

 

[johnb]

How much easier would all this cascading of stock be if every train had a standard livery and interior - and minimal branding from the company running any one franchise.

Hardly any easier at all. The only bit of branding that actually costs money when a train is cascaded or a new franchisee takes over is the attachment of the TOC's logo, which is a couple of square feet of vinyl per coach, and internal route maps and information posters, which would be needed anyway.

Everything else - the whole-train revinylling, the internal refits, any repainting that's required - is done because the train needs refurbishing anyway, and it might as well be in the new operator's colours.

That's why, on the Thameslink route, you'll see 319s running with at least five different external liveries and at least six different interiors...

 

[jon0844]

I know the TOC name is put on top of any other vinyls, but trains are all different colours and that vinyl must be quite expensive - and there's always the issue of how you get them in to be done.

I'd have thought that if every train was white, black, grey, blue, pink or green - you'd simply be putting a subtle TOC name near the front (like buses) and that's it. Yes, you'd change the posters inside for route maps - but nothing else would change, not even the safety notices.

Seating would be a standard colour - so no pink, blue, green, brown or whatever. I also think that most people would prefer a standard look, going back to the BR days.

Of course, with TOC-specific tickets perhaps it might confuse people looking for a particular train, but these people are probably the people who don't exactly recognise a TOC by the train colour or the class of train they use.

FCC's 319s are a good example of the problem when they've taken trains from Southern that were green/white, or why they've got FCC liveried 377/5s with Southern's interior because they'll be getting them in the next nn years.

 

[MCR247]

How much easier would all this cascading of stock be if every train had a standard livery and interior - and minimal branding from the company running any one franchise.

no, becuase then, would you want 3+2 seating on a Pendolino?

 

[jopsuk]

no, becuase then, would you want 3+2 seating on a Pendolino?

Strawman arguement. I don't think jon was suggesting that at all. However, it would be far from ridiculous to have all IC stock have one interior, all regional/commuter stock another and all "metro" stock a third (never mind the insane plan in my head regarding refurbing, refitting and remarshalling all stock into a small number of "super classes")

 

[johnb]

I know the TOC name is put on top of any other vinyls, but trains are all different colours and that vinyl must be quite expensive - and there's always the issue of how you get them in to be done.

What I'm saying is that:
1) vinyl really isn't very expensive
2) with the exception of 'flagship' trains at the start of a franchise (or the orange Thameslink Project ones), they put it on when the train's already in for maintenance

I'd have thought that if every train was white, black, grey, blue, pink or green - you'd simply be putting a subtle TOC name near the front (like buses) and that's it. Yes, you'd change the posters inside for route maps - but nothing else would change, not even the safety notices.

So the safety notices carry every TOC's phone number and are all printed in English and Welsh?

Seating would be a standard colour - so no pink, blue, green, brown or whatever. I also think that most people would prefer a standard look, going back to the BR days.

Seat covers get changed every few years anyway due to wear-and-tear. And I don't think most people could care less as long as it doesn't look run-down or hideous.

Of course, with TOC-specific tickets perhaps it might confuse people looking for a particular train, but these people are probably the people who don't exactly recognise a TOC by the train colour or the class of train they use.

I hope that nobody is being penalised at the moment for getting confused between FCC and Southern trains between London and Gatwick/Brighton (given that a sizeable proportion of FCC trains carry Southern livery...)

FCC's 319s are a good example of the problem when they've taken trains from Southern that were green/white, or why they've got FCC liveried 377/5s with Southern's interior because they'll be getting them in the next nn years.

Yes, I accept the first of these could be a problem, because they interwork with other SN-liveried trains on lines with non-interavailable tickets. But I don't see why the interior on the 377/5s matters at all?

 

[Bush]

The Brighton to littlehampton service was withdrawn 2 years ago when the new coastway timetable was introduced(except a few peak workings. Im told that the plan is still just a possibility but that if it goes ahead the 313s wont go West of west Worthing as they cant keep to time and theres a fear if they are regularly used on the fast coastway services they will go bang. I dont think they have ever been used at 70/75 mph on dc.

Sorry, I've been in Devon for the past 2½ years, I wasn't aware the Littlehampton Stoppers had been withdrawn.

I should imagine with the acceleration and balancing speed of 313 working the West Coastway should hold no problems bar the lack of toilets, you'll find that they will proberly go for a C6 & C5P before entering service, but its down to Southerns franchise commitment, and if Southern introduce a Balanced 'B' Exam plan on them like they have with the 377's (usually the norm now) the MPC figures should start to rise as the Mechanics & Electrics are "More Frequently" Examined/Tested/Maintained.

 

[jon0844]

I am not aware that the safety notices carry TOC details, so why would they need to have the number of every TOC? And for what purpose in the case of an emergency?

But, English and Welsh is a valid point - but changing the notices isn't difficult compared to changing the seat covers, the colour of the handles, the TOC specific signs and stickers and the vinyl covers on the exterior.

I didn't mention changing the seat configuration - but surely the point is that when stock is moved around, it's usually for the very reason that a train is more suited in another place and so the train is being moved because of its current layout. Of course, some operators will strip out the interior and rebuild from scratch (as is supposedly happening with the 319s which are ultimately getting air conditioning!) but that doesn't have to be TOC specific. The DFT can decide that.

I'd quite like a more standardised fleet, but competition seems to force us to mix and match through the competitive tendering process. We can't change that.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

What I'm saying is that:
1) vinyl really isn't very expensive
2) with the exception of 'flagship' trains at the start of a franchise (or the orange Thameslink Project ones), they put it on when the train's already in for maintenance

I hope that nobody is being penalised at the moment for getting confused between FCC and Southern trains between London and Gatwick/Brighton (given that a sizeable proportion of FCC trains carry Southern livery...)

Yes, I accept the first of these could be a problem, because they interwork with other SN-liveried trains on lines with non-interavailable tickets. But I don't see why the interior on the 377/5s matters at all?

Er, what orange Thameslink Project are you on about? :???: Its a rainbow and on the trains its highlighted by pink! hock:

As for the cost of viyal, well its designed to save the train when graffied so you just peel it off and start again. Hardly an issue when you have to rebrand a unit. simple couple of hours job unless your FCC and doing 377/5 that is. (ie looks crap!)

There is advise to staff reguarding passengers with incorrect tickets where confusion arises. So far Ive not heard any horror stories.

Also note that all the Southern liveried FCC borrowed stock (319s and 377/2s) also have a sign in very doorway (well they did when they started).

 

[Aictos]

Best thing to do is keep the 313s in London running as 9 or 12 car formations and keep the 377s down south.

But that too simple, ain't it?

 

[paul1609]

Sorry, I've been in Devon for the past 2½ years, I wasn't aware the Littlehampton Stoppers had been withdrawn.

I should imagine with the acceleration and balancing speed of 313 working the West Coastway should hold no problems bar the lack of toilets, you'll find that they will proberly go for a C6 & C5P before entering service, but its down to Southerns franchise commitment, and if Southern introduce a Balanced 'B' Exam plan on them like they have with the 377's (usually the norm now) the MPC figures should start to rise as the Mechanics & Electrics are "More Frequently" Examined/Tested/Maintained.

If youve been away you probably dont realise that there's no stoppers west of worthing on the Coastway these days, even Brighton to Portsmouth Services are semi fast.
Intermediate stations to littlehampton are covered by the 2tph to Victoria whilst Littlehampton to Portsmouth has an hourly all stations service. Apparently the 313s arent able to keep the section times for Barnham to Chichester (75 mph line speed) Chichester to Southbourne (75 mph) or Havant to Fratton (85 mph) If the plan goes ahead the 313s will only cover until the 377/5s are returned by FCC in 2012? so Southern wont be looking to splash much cash on them.
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313s on just Seaford/Hove/Worthing will release only about ten 377s total though won't it? That doesn't form up many 3+3+4 10-car suburban sets at Selhurst.

The plan is that 442s will cover the "Brighton Express" services so the 377/3s will be released.