Southeastern - using return journey first to get into London

[Amaans99]

Hi all,
Hoping someone can shed some light on something that happened to me this evening on my way home from work. I scanned my e-ticket as I normally do at St Pancras, but it flagged up and said seek assistance, so I flashed my phone at the man standing by the turnstile and normally they look at it and let you go. He used his scanner and scanned it and highlighted that the ticket was used in the morning, so it isn’t valid now. You’re attempting fraud. To which I replied oh yes no problem, I didn’t know it made that big of a difference and Im sorry. I was then put on record by his colleague (body cam) with him stating I am attempting fraud and I don’t have a valid railcard and I’ve been a repeat offender. So on camera I said I only come in to London once a month, and I have my tickets booked for me (lied in panic) but I understand they have my name on them so I take responsibility for it. I wasn’t afforded the opportunity to sign into my app whilst on camera to display the railcard, I was just told it needs to be ready for inspection. Flustered and overwhelmed by the situation I walked away to calm down, and came back and showed him I had a valid railcard to which he responded it’s out of my hands now it’s with the fraud team, sort it out with them, you need to buy a single ticket to get onto the next train back to Ashford, so I did.

Now, I didn’t think it was a big deal, no one’s said anything to me before if ever I’ve have had this issue in the past someone would look at the ticket and let me carry on. After doing some research online I can see that it is an offence but it wasn’t one I was aware I was committing as I’ve never been warned or anything beforehand. I have counted on my TrainPal app this has happened 12 times since January.
I find it odd how I was never asked to pay for a valid ticket, or offered a penalty notice. They didn’t ask for any of my details and just kept saying to me “don’t worry we’ll be able to find your details” as if I was trying to hide them…? I wasn’t. I was only told to purchase a ticket after the recording was done and at no point did I argue.
I’m curious as to what should I be expecting and what the best way to proceed with this would be? For 12 trips I really would like to avoid a criminal record / court proceedings, I’m young and have only recently started working professionally in the city and only did it to save some money longer term, I didn’t know what I was doing could have drastic consequences.
Thanks in advance!!

 

[furlong]

From what station do you travel? Ashford?

Are these e-tickets?

Day returns presumably? What price was the return ticket?

Southeastern has a curious setup whereby return fares from some stations are more expensive in the direction that most people travel (into London) than in the other direction (out of London). Charging more for busier trains.

The conditions of a return ticket are that once you have used the return portion, the outward portion has no remaining validity. In other words, you cannot use the outward portion after you have used the return portion.

Once we know the station concerned and the fares, we can advise further.

 

[Amaans99]

From what station do you travel? Ashford?

Are these e-tickets?

Day returns presumably?

Southeastern has a curious setup whereby return fares from some stations are more expensive in the direction that most people travel (into London) than in the other direction (out of London). Charging more for busier trains.

The conditions of a return ticket are that once you have used the return portion, the outward portion has no remaining validity. In other words, you cannot use the outward portion after you have used the return portion.

Once we know the station concerned and the fares, we can advise further.

Yeah from Ashford to St Pancras is the route. I’ve been buying St Pancras to Ashford return £34.60 rather than the correct way round which is £60+. E tickets most of the time for convenience, and yes day returns, leaving Ashford at 8ish AM and returning at 5:30ish PM.
As I say I now understand it’s a silly thing to do and won’t be doing it again. Just wanting to know what I can do now.

 

[furlong]

OK, so what's most likely:

They'll look at your purchase history and work out how many times you've been doing this.

They'll assume you don't have a railcard. Take a picture of your railcard now and be ready to send them it. If you were using a previous one that expired during the period concerned, get proof of that too.

Calculate yourself how much money you owe them.
Do this two ways.
Firstly the difference between what you would have paid if you'd bought the tickets the correct way around and what you actually paid.
Secondly, the cost of a single ticket home each time without a railcard. (Because you had no valid ticket in that direction.)

You'll get a letter threatening prosecution. This can take a few months to arrive.

If you ask nicely, they are usually prepared to offer a financial settlement in lieu of prosecution. This will lie somewhere between the two figures you calculated above with an additional fee added on top. You may try to argue it was an innocent mistake and you only owe them the lower amount - or perhaps the second amount with an additional railcard discount.

Whether or not it would be easy for them to prosecute in practice would depend largely on what you said to them at the time and they recorded. For the journey concerned you were attempting to travel and they could allege this was without first paying the correct fare and while intending not to do so (in the sense that if you hadn't been stopped you wouldn't have). For earlier journeys what evidence have they that it was you that used the tickets?

How you respond when you get the letter depends on your appetite for risk. In most cases we see, people just apologise and pay whatever large sum they ask for initially to make everything go away. However we have seen examples with Southeastern where people successfully negotiated a lower figure.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Nov 2025 ==

On the fares:

Having been caught once, I wouldn't recommend this at the moment, but what is legitimate is to use period returns instead of day returns, on which there may be a much smaller saving.

First time: Ashford to London, single.
London to Ashford, outward portion of a period return
Second day you travel: Ashford to London, return portion of the period return
.etc.

Last day you travel, you finish with a single again.

If you do this you must be extremely careful to track which tickets have been used so you never accidentally scan the wrong ticket.
As you've discovered, the barrier may still open with an incorrect ticket but the electronic record created would catch up with you now that you are on their radar.

The other thing we often suggest considering is making a clean break of it all and switching to a different ticket provider. (But don't close the original account - you may still need to refer to the data to respond to the train company!)

Currently, for example, you can get 10% off Uber gift cards in a promotion at Tesco (see the special offer thread on this forum) and spend those on rail tickets - with a stacked 10% discount till at least January if you join Uber One (fee to join) and a smaller additional discount otherwise, with some Avios points thrown in.

 

[tatitiliti]

Hi all,
Hoping someone can shed some light on something that happened to me this evening on my way home from work. I scanned my e-ticket as I normally do at St Pancras, but it flagged up and said seek assistance, so I flashed my phone at the man standing by the turnstile and normally they look at it and let you go. He used his scanner and scanned it and highlighted that the ticket was used in the morning, so it isn’t valid now. You’re attempting fraud. To which I replied oh yes no problem, I didn’t know it made that big of a difference and Im sorry. I was then put on record by his colleague (body cam) with him stating I am attempting fraud and I don’t have a valid railcard and I’ve been a repeat offender. So on camera I said I only come in to London once a month, and I have my tickets booked for me (lied in panic) but I understand they have my name on them so I take responsibility for it. I wasn’t afforded the opportunity to sign into my app whilst on camera to display the railcard, I was just told it needs to be ready for inspection. Flustered and overwhelmed by the situation I walked away to calm down, and came back and showed him I had a valid railcard to which he responded it’s out of my hands now it’s with the fraud team, sort it out with them, you need to buy a single ticket to get onto the next train back to Ashford, so I did.

Now, I didn’t think it was a big deal, no one’s said anything to me before if ever I’ve have had this issue in the past someone would look at the ticket and let me carry on. After doing some research online I can see that it is an offence but it wasn’t one I was aware I was committing as I’ve never been warned or anything beforehand. I have counted on my TrainPal app this has happened 12 times since January.
I find it odd how I was never asked to pay for a valid ticket, or offered a penalty notice. They didn’t ask for any of my details and just kept saying to me “don’t worry we’ll be able to find your details” as if I was trying to hide them…? I wasn’t. I was only told to purchase a ticket after the recording was done and at no point did I argue.
I’m curious as to what should I be expecting and what the best way to proceed with this would be? For 12 trips I really would like to avoid a criminal record / court proceedings, I’m young and have only recently started working professionally in the city and only did it to save some money longer term, I didn’t know what I was doing could have drastic consequences.
Thanks in advance!!

Do you remember the *exact* words you said to the Southeastern staff? If you didn’t say something that is incriminating beyond reasonable doubt, given you were outside of a compulsory ticket area and weren’t directly caught in the act, I expect they would have a hard time trying to bring a RoRA prosecution on this. This would mean you have more leverage to negotiate a (far) lower out-of-court settlement if/when you get a letter.

In future, if anyone with a body cam asks you about something you’re guilty of or you suspect you may be guilty of, the correct answer is ‘no comment’!

Also, does your TrainPal app have your home address directly associated with it beyond what is inputted for the payment details (assuming this is where you bought all your incorrectly used tickets)?

 

[island]

Having been caught once, I wouldn't recommend this at the moment, but what is legitimate is to use period returns instead of day returns, on which there may be a much smaller saving.

First time: Ashford to London, single.
London to Ashford, outward portion of a period return
Second day you travel: Ashford to London, return portion of the period return
.etc.

Last day you travel, you finish with a single again.

An anytime return from London Terminals with plus high speed still costs more than an anytime day return from Ashford, and likewise with their off-peak equivalents, so this doesn't save anything.

If you do this you must be extremely careful to track which tickets have been used so you never accidentally scan the wrong ticket.
As you've discovered, the barrier may still open with an incorrect ticket but the electronic record created would catch up with you now that you are on their radar.

It's moot because of the previous point, but one could of course use paper tickets which cannot be "audited" this way.

 

[Amaans99]

OK, so what's most likely:

They'll look at your purchase history and work out how many times you've been doing this.

They'll assume you don't have a railcard. Take a picture of your railcard now and be ready to send them it. If you were using a previous one that expired during the period concerned, get proof of that too.

Calculate yourself how much money you owe them.
Do this two ways.
Firstly the difference between what you would have paid if you'd bought the tickets the correct way around and what you actually paid.
Secondly, the cost of a single ticket home each time without a railcard. (Because you had no valid ticket in that direction.)

You'll get a letter threatening prosecution. This can take a few months to arrive.

If you ask nicely, they are usually prepared to offer a financial settlement in lieu of prosecution. This will lie somewhere between the two figures you calculated above with an additional fee added on top. You may try to argue it was an innocent mistake and you only owe them the lower amount - or perhaps the second amount with an additional railcard discount.

Whether or not it would be easy for them to prosecute in practice would depend largely on what you said to them at the time and they recorded. For the journey concerned you were attempting to travel and they could allege this was without first paying the correct fare and while intending not to do so (in the sense that if you hadn't been stopped you wouldn't have). For earlier journeys what evidence have they that it was you that used the tickets?

How you respond when you get the letter depends on your appetite for risk. In most cases we see, people just apologise and pay whatever large sum they ask for initially to make everything go away. However we have seen examples with Southeastern where people successfully negotiated a lower figure.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Nov 2025 ==

On the fares:

Having been caught once, I wouldn't recommend this at the moment, but what is legitimate is to use period returns instead of day returns, on which there may be a much smaller saving.

First time: Ashford to London, single.
London to Ashford, outward portion of a period return
Second day you travel: Ashford to London, return portion of the period return
.etc.

Last day you travel, you finish with a single again.

If you do this you must be extremely careful to track which tickets have been used so you never accidentally scan the wrong ticket.
As you've discovered, the barrier may still open with an incorrect ticket but the electronic record created would catch up with you now that you are on their radar.

The other thing we often suggest considering is making a clean break of it all and switching to a different ticket provider. (But don't close the original account - you may still need to refer to the data to respond to the train company!)

Currently, for example, you can get 10% off Uber gift cards in a promotion at Tesco (see the special offer thread on this forum) and spend those on rail tickets - with a stacked 10% discount till at least January if you join Uber One (fee to join) and a smaller additional discount otherwise, with some Avios points thrown in.

Thank you very much for this advice. I'm hoping I do get the opportunity to go ahead with a financial settlement. Within both scenarios you've mentioned, the sum of money owed to them is under £400, which I have right now and more than happy to lose it if it means the issue will go away. I can't remember exactly what I said to them at the time, it was nearing 10pm and I just wanted to get home. I was cooperative and was as honest as I could be and didn't put up any fight claiming my ticket was valid. I remember saying that I didnt think it made much difference, but all they were doing was acting as if I knew exactly what I was doing and committing fraud on purpose. What I said whilst being recorded I can't quite remember, I was just being asked to show the rail card and when I didn't have it, thats when I was recorded. I am sure I am on camera saying since the last time I travelled to London, my emails have been hacked and I have been a victim of identity theft, its possible that as I closed down that email address it has signed me out, but if I was to sign in again it would show up (all true, I even remember being on camera saying I have a crime ref nr for it (also true). As soon as he stopped recording I was able to calm myself down and show the railcard but he wasnt interested in the slightest. I have taken a screenshot of this as I appreciate this is the first thing I will get asked. The only evidence that it was me that used the tickets is the barriers I imagine. As I said, I've never been stopped or spoken to about it before, so unsure how much evidence they actually have that I used the tickets. I also don't know if anything will actually come about as they have no details from me.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Nov 2025 ==

Do you remember the *exact* words you said to the Southeastern staff? If you didn’t say something that is incriminating beyond reasonable doubt, given you were outside of a compulsory ticket area and weren’t directly caught in the act, I expect they would have a hard time trying to bring a RoRA prosecution on this. This would mean you have more leverage to negotiate a (far) lower out-of-court settlement if/when you get a letter.

In future, if anyone with a body cam asks you about something you’re guilty of or you suspect you may be guilty of, the correct answer is ‘no comment’!

Also, does your TrainPal app have your home address directly associated with it beyond what is inputted for the payment details (assuming this is where you bought all your incorrectly used tickets)?

If you see my reply to furlong above, the first part of your questions will be answered.

Thanks for the advice on "no comment", I've only ever seen that on TV, never occured to me in the moment to say it haha!

I've checked my trainpal app, my address isn't listed on it. Only thing on there is my bank account, and your assumption is correct.

 

[saismee]

Now, I didn’t think it was a big deal, no one’s said anything to me before if ever I’ve have had this issue in the past someone would look at the ticket and let me carry on. After doing some research online I can see that it is an offence but it wasn’t one I was aware I was committing as I’ve never been warned or anything beforehand. I have counted on my TrainPal app this has happened 12 times since January.
I find it odd how I was never asked to pay for a valid ticket, or offered a penalty notice.

If you are confused as to why you weren't told about this before when showing your ticket, it's likely that you were stopped by poorly trained or careless gateline staff. Gateline staff don't have revenue protection powers so they can't actually do anything about it, so they will often just let you in to avoid any confrontation. It is possible (though quite unlikely) that the RPI was intentionally put there to catch you in the act after Southeastern have spotted the travel irregularity on your account. This would explain how they knew you were a repeat offender, though it's much more likely that gateline staff mentioned it to them upon seeing you, or they spotted the other tickets on your device.

I expect they would have a hard time trying to bring a RoRA prosecution on this.

I agree, though OP has made it clear here that they did intend to defraud the railway as they were intentionally buying cheaper tickets and using them fraudulently. It entirely hinges on what they said when questioned though, as Southeastern can't prove intent otherwise. OP, be careful what you say to Southeastern when you receive a letter, and post drafts of anything you intend to send to them here so forum members can proof read it for you.

Within both scenarios you've mentioned, the sum of money owed to them is under £400, which I have right now and more than happy to lose it if it means the issue will go away.

This is a best-case price. The train companies can be quite excessive with their settlement offers, and they may ask for two Anytime Day Single fares for each return journey bought instead of just asking for the difference. This comes out to around 1200 pounds for 24x Anytime Day Singles between Ashford and St Pancras, so I would suggest planning for the worst-case scenario, though other forum members will certainly help you write a response to whittle it down to a reasonable amount.

I've checked my trainpal app, my address isn't listed on it. Only thing on there is my bank account, and your assumption is correct.

They will likely be able to get the rest of your details through your bank.

 

[AlterEgo]

They will likely be able to get the rest of your details through your bank.

In practice this doesn't seem to happen, and I would be surprised if the bank complied with any request from a commercial enterprise as it would probably be unlawful.

 

[tatitiliti]

Thank you very much for this advice. I'm hoping I do get the opportunity to go ahead with a financial settlement. Within both scenarios you've mentioned, the sum of money owed to them is under £400, which I have right now and more than happy to lose it if it means the issue will go away. I can't remember exactly what I said to them at the time, it was nearing 10pm and I just wanted to get home. I was cooperative and was as honest as I could be and didn't put up any fight claiming my ticket was valid. I remember saying that I didnt think it made much difference, but all they were doing was acting as if I knew exactly what I was doing and committing fraud on purpose. What I said whilst being recorded I can't quite remember, I was just being asked to show the rail card and when I didn't have it, thats when I was recorded. I am sure I am on camera saying since the last time I travelled to London, my emails have been hacked and I have been a victim of identity theft, its possible that as I closed down that email address it has signed me out, but if I was to sign in again it would show up (all true, I even remember being on camera saying I have a crime ref nr for it (also true). As soon as he stopped recording I was able to calm myself down and show the railcard but he wasnt interested in the slightest. I have taken a screenshot of this as I appreciate this is the first thing I will get asked. The only evidence that it was me that used the tickets is the barriers I imagine. As I said, I've never been stopped or spoken to about it before, so unsure how much evidence they actually have that I used the tickets. I also don't know if anything will actually come about as they have no details from me.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Nov 2025 ==


If you see my reply to furlong above, the first part of your questions will be answered.

Thanks for the advice on "no comment", I've only ever seen that on TV, never occured to me in the moment to say it haha!

I've checked my trainpal app, my address isn't listed on it. Only thing on there is my bank account, and your assumption is correct.

In that case, they may try emailing you instead (we’ve seen this a few times). If it were me, I’d ignore all email correspondence entirely (don’t even open them) as, for the reasons above, they’d have a hard time bringing a case against you.

If you do get a letter where they somehow manage to track down your address, post it here first and wait to see what people advise before you reply with anything - it depends what they realistically may be able to use against you.

 

[Starmill]

In practice this doesn't seem to happen, and I would be surprised if the bank complied with any request from a commercial enterprise as it would probably be unlawful.

Indeed. The bank will have a strict procedure for releasing customer data to the police (and maybe a few other public bodies whose job it is to investigate certain areas) for the purpose of investigating crime. It's probably not a surprise that a train company can't be bothered to try to comply with that.

 

[island]

I've checked my trainpal app, my address isn't listed on it. Only thing on there is my bank account, and your assumption is correct.

You'd normally have given your billing address at time of purchase or saving your bank card.

 

[Amaans99]

In that case, they may try emailing you instead (we’ve seen this a few times). If it were me, I’d ignore all email correspondence entirely (don’t even open them) as, for the reasons above, they’d have a hard time bringing a case against you.

If you do get a letter where they somehow manage to track down your address, post it here first and wait to see what people advise before you reply with anything - it depends what they realistically may be able to use against you.

They can try, I don't even have access to the email address my trainpal app is associated with, so they would struggle to get hold of me. Thanks for the advice, I will definitely be posting any letter I receive on here (if I do receive one)! A lot of helpful advice has been given thus far and I appreciate it massively.