Southeastern - Timetable change

[Tester]

Just checked Abbey Wood to Rochester, out of curiosity. Currently 46 mins. In 1982 (available on Timetable World) just 34 mins, with limited stops at Dartford, Gravesend, Higham (alternate services) and Strood only. Inwards from Abbey Wood it was Woolwich and Lewisham only, so it was a rare-example of a true semi-fast service operated by suburban stock (EPBs). With the importance of Abbey Wood, Woolwich and Lewisham as interchange stations greater now than back then, one would think that there would be even more demand for such a limited stop service than there was in 1982!

For interest, the service not calling at Higham called (unadvertised) at Hoo Junction Staff Halt, thereby balancing the timings.

 

[nw1]

For interest, the service not calling at Higham called (unadvertised) at Hoo Junction Staff Halt, thereby balancing the timings.

I did wonder about that, as the timings were the same. Presumably pathing would not have allowed the Higham-skipper to run through onto the Chatham main line 1 or 2 minutes earlier.

 

[43066]

Yes, but now the Caterham service has been halved and there are less services through Windmill Junction I'd bet it would be possible to fit now. Especially as there is only a half-hourly London Bridge service.

Fair point.

The reduction in trains through the junction might well be only temporary, though, and the current set up with the Rainham services (eg the GTR depot at Gillingham) is now well established and would be expensive/complex to alter.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Just checked Abbey Wood to Rochester, out of curiosity. Currently 46 mins. In 1982 (available on Timetable World) just 34 mins, with limited stops at Dartford, Gravesend, Higham (alternate services) and Strood only. Inwards from Abbey Wood it was Woolwich and Lewisham only, so it was a rare-example of a true semi-fast service operated by suburban stock (EPBs). With the importance of Abbey Wood, Woolwich and Lewisham as interchange stations greater now than back then, one would think that there would be even more demand for such a limited stop service than there was in 1982!

Just over half hour from Rochester to Abbey Wood! In the age of the Liz line that would be a huge sell.

Personally I think there should semi fast services along the Woolwich line again given the how well connected the inner stations (Abbey Wood, Woolwich Arsenal, Greenwich and Lewisham in particular) are, but sadly these won’t return, as many see HS1 as being the fast service to Central London from Medway now, bearing in mind that that demand for the Elizabeth line will only set to increase in the coming years.

 

[PGAT]

Prior to September the Caterham line was at capacity for the whole off-peak. Tattenham Corner has alot of capacity but barely any demand for the 12 car TL trains that were promised. If you wanted to divert the Rainham trains here would be my suggestions:

1) Extending Platform 2 at Reigate and running extra trains there

2) Do the same thing at Edenbridge to try to induce passenger demand (and simultaneously freeing up room on the overcrowded Uckfield trains)

3) Run to Dorking/Horsham via Sutton

 

[Stephen42]

Can Caterham cope with 8-cars incidentally? If so, sounds a perfect fit.

All the Caterhams currently split/join at Purley for a portion to Tattenham Corner. Thameslink trains can't split so either reduces that to a shuttle or have to run 2tph extra past Purley to give direct services. That's part of the reason why it changed to Rainham in the first place, splitting and joining reduces the number of trains going through East Croydon.

 

[PGAT]

Can Caterham cope with 8-cars incidentally?

Yes, but it’s the only station on the line to do so

 

[NorthKent1989]

Wasn’t what’s now the Rainham GTR service originally meant to go to Catarham or somewhere else off the BML, but there ended up not being enough capacity at East Croydon, absent the rebuild of Windmill Bridge junction (which now isn’t happening AIUI)?

It was meant to go to Caterham, you’re right, one thing I don’t understand is why they never simply took over the stopping service via Sydenham rather than the Caterham service being a separate service

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jan 2023 ==

Just checked Abbey Wood to Rochester, out of curiosity. Currently 46 mins. In 1982 (available on Timetable World) just 34 mins, with limited stops at Dartford, Gravesend, Higham (alternate services) and Strood only. Inwards from Abbey Wood it was Woolwich and Lewisham only, so it was a rare-example of a true semi-fast service operated by suburban stock (EPBs). With the importance of Abbey Wood, Woolwich and Lewisham as interchange stations greater now than back then, one would think that there would be even more demand for such a limited stop service than there was in 1982!

Another thought on the old Woolwich line semi fasts, was that until about 1993/1994 many of these services extended out to Ramsgate in the peaks and Summer months, certainly until the early 1980s they regularly went to Ramsgate (which another portion used to divide at Strood and ran to Maidstone West until the mid 1970s I think)

These ended upon the advent of Networker trains arriving and were curtailed at Gillingham, aside from summer excursions.

In todays era, given that from inner SE London down to Gravesend and along the Thanet coastal towns, is booming with new homes and becoming popular with commuters, such a service would be handy in ferry commuters and leisure travellers alike through several conurbations, you could have commuter flows from say Thanet to Dartford or Faversham to Abbey Wood then Liz Line to Canary Wharf (fares might be cheaper than Highspeed fares too) or Medway to Lewisham (anyone whose been to Lewisham recently will have noticed all the new towers and the town itself is being regenerated)

This service in 2022 would pretty much act as a people mover between these towns.

 

[bicbasher]

It was meant to go to Caterham, you’re right, one thing I don’t understand is why they never simply took over the stopping service via Sydenham rather than the Caterham service being a separate service

Presumably it'd affect the reliability of the Overground services if a delayed TL service runs on the slow.

 

[evergreenadam]

So how is it working?
Are the Beckenham Junction to Blackfriars trains well used? How about the Maidstone to Charing Cross service?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

So far we have had to deal with suggestions that there is an all-mighty, albeit hidden and Tufton Street-esque Charlton lobby group that was going to save Charing Cross services (wrong). Then, it’s the idea of Ramsgate to Woolwich line trains that will be so well-populated that we won’t be able to resist them.

 

[NorthKent1989]

So far we have had to deal with suggestions that there is an all-mighty, albeit hidden and Tufton Street-esque Charlton lobby group that was going to save Charing Cross services (wrong). Then, it’s the idea of Ramsgate to Woolwich line trains that will be so well-populated that we won’t be able to resist them.

Some one else made the point that it was quicker from Rochester to Abbey Wood in the 80s than it is now in the age of of the Liz line, and how towns across this area were connected at one time.

And in regards to the timetable looks like people who were worried about the changes were right after all weren’t we? The new timetable has been an utter shambles.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Feb 2023 ==

So how is it working?
Are the Beckenham Junction to Blackfriars trains well used? How about the Maidstone to Charing Cross service?

Not sure about the Blackfriars-Beckenham route but the Maidstone service is popular, probably the one thing they got right

 

[4-SUB 4732]

So how is it working?
Are the Beckenham Junction to Blackfriars trains well used? How about the Maidstone to Charing Cross service?

Maidstone to Charing Cross being “popular” isn’t necessarily a fair comment, perhaps on the key basis that it has replaced another train, and that Maidstone semi-fast trains to Victoria were always quite busy. The resulting slow train from Charing to Kemsing that goes up to Victoria is often full now, save for a couple of seats, on each 8 car 377 (bare in mind the extra seats in the 3+2 coaches) from St Mary Cray.

 

[Edsmith]

Maidstone to Charing Cross being “popular” isn’t necessarily a fair comment, perhaps on the key basis that it has replaced another train, and that Maidstone semi-fast trains to Victoria were always quite busy. The resulting slow train from Charing to Kemsing that goes up to Victoria is often full now, save for a couple of seats, on each 8 car 377 (bare in mind the extra seats in the 3+2 coaches) from St Mary Cray.

That's a good point, it's just one of the 2tph Victoria services rerouted to Charing Cross and withdrawn between Maidstone East and Ashford although 1tph is generally adequate off peak. And of course the Ashford to Victoria service now takes longer as it's all stops as far as Otford. Whilst the link to London Bridge Waterloo East and Charing Cross is useful there are winners and losers and the previous peak hour service to Blackfriars has been withdrawn.

 

[Hedgehog1977]

So how is it working?
Are the Beckenham Junction to Blackfriars trains well used? How about the Maidstone to Charing Cross service?

7am, 7:30, 8am, 8:30 pretty well used. The 9am which I usually get is empty. 5 people on average in back carriage. Normally have the back '1/3rd' of carriage to myself.
The 2 evening services back from Blackfriars to BKJ are pretty busy. But they are only 6 carriages and 1hr gap between. All of them much more reliable then waiting for a SE train to HNH and changing onto Thameslink.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Prior to September the Caterham line was at capacity for the whole off-peak. Tattenham Corner has alot of capacity but barely any demand for the 12 car TL trains that were promised. If you wanted to divert the Rainham trains here would be my suggestions:

1) Extending Platform 2 at Reigate and running extra trains there

2) Do the same thing at Edenbridge to try to induce passenger demand (and simultaneously freeing up room on the overcrowded Uckfield trains)

3) Run to Dorking/Horsham via Sutton

Tattenham Corner can only take 8 cars, which is what the Rainhams are.
The capacity of the Tattenham line is really only used on Derby Day

 

[evergreenadam]

7am, 7:30, 8am, 8:30 pretty well used. The 9am which I usually get is empty. 5 people on average in back carriage. Normally have the back '1/3rd' of carriage to myself.
The 2 evening services back from Blackfriars to BKJ are pretty busy. But they are only 6 carriages and 1hr gap between. All of them much more reliable then waiting for a SE train to HNH and changing onto Thameslink.

That’s good, glad to hear that they are a success.

 

[4BEP]

Maidstone to Charing Cross being “popular” isn’t necessarily a fair comment, perhaps on the key basis that it has replaced another train, and that Maidstone semi-fast trains to Victoria were always quite busy. The resulting slow train from Charing to Kemsing that goes up to Victoria is often full now, save for a couple of seats, on each 8 car 377 (bare in mind the extra seats in the 3+2 coaches) from St Mary Cray.

377/5s are 2+2.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Feb 2023 ==

Maidstone to Charing Cross being “popular” isn’t necessarily a fair comment, perhaps on the key basis that it has replaced another train, and that Maidstone semi-fast trains to Victoria were always quite busy. The resulting slow train from Charing to Kemsing that goes up to Victoria is often full now, save for a couple of seats, on each 8 car 377 (bare in mind the extra seats in the 3+2 coaches) from St Mary Cray.

Apologies, it has just been pointed out to me that my journeys in 377/5s havevall been in the section behind the driving cab. Now that 1st class is no more on Southeastern I must get out and see what life is like in the middle two coaches. Again, apologies.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

377/5s are 2+2.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Feb 2023 ==


Apologies, it has just been pointed out to me that my journeys in 377/5s havevall been in the section behind the driving cab. Now that 1st class is no more on Southeastern I must get out and see what life is like in the middle two coaches. Again, apologies.

They are 2+2 in the outer coaches, 3+2 in the inner coaches. If you’d like to challenge that further, I will await your photos with the toilet in the background (centre coaches) and 2+2 chairs…

 

[Ted_Barclay]

The Charing Cross - Maidstone East service has a major failing.

In the up direction the Charing Cross services leave Swanley two minutes before the up hourly stopping service via the Sole Street arrive!

In the down direction, however, it is an eleven minute connection.

An object lesson in how not to generate passenger traffic on a new facility.

 

[Class 466]

Interestingly in the release about changes from today they skim over the fact that capacity on the 1605 St Pancras - Dover Priory has been halved as far as Ashford to “improve performance”. Whilst it may well do this (Splitting and attaching at Ashford removed) - it’s hardly going to improve customer satisfaction.

 

[telstarbox]

The Charing Cross - Maidstone East service has a major failing.

In the up direction the Charing Cross services leave Swanley two minutes before the up hourly stopping service via the Sole Street arrive!

In the down direction, however, it is an eleven minute connection.

An object lesson in how not to generate passenger traffic on a new facility.

How would you timetable it please?

 

[PGAT]

The Charing Cross - Maidstone East service has a major failing.

In the up direction the Charing Cross services leave Swanley two minutes before the up hourly stopping service via the Sole Street arrive!

In the down direction, however, it is an eleven minute connection.

An object lesson in how not to generate passenger traffic on a new facility.

If something is timetabled a certain way, do you ever think as to why that is the case or do you just blindly complain?

 

[brad465]

The Charing Cross - Maidstone East service has a major failing.

In the up direction the Charing Cross services leave Swanley two minutes before the up hourly stopping service via the Sole Street arrive!

In the down direction, however, it is an eleven minute connection.

An object lesson in how not to generate passenger traffic on a new facility.

Depends on what the main interchange demand there is (if any), you could argue that if it was all running to time it's a very good interchange for Bromley South and Victoria for those on the MDE-CHX service, although the connection is too tight to be advertised. I don't know how many passengers on the GLM-VIC service want London Bridge et al., but for Victoria they would either just stay on board all the way or get off at Bromley South and catch one just a few minutes behind that gets there first.

You also can't easily alter the stopper in question, as any earlier and it backs up on a Thameslink even more than it already does; any later and it impedes the fast service just behind it.

 

[30907]

Depends on what the main interchange demand there is (if any), you could argue that if it was all running to time it's a very good interchange for Bromley South and Victoria for those on the MDE-CHX service, although the connection is too tight to be advertised. I don't know how many passengers on the GLM-VIC service want London Bridge et al., but for Victoria they would either just stay on board all the way or get off at Bromley South and catch one just a few minutes behind that gets there first.

You also can't easily alter the stopper in question, as any earlier and it backs up on a Thameslink even more than it already does; any later and it impedes the fast service just behind it.

You could retime the MDE-CHX 7 minutes later to allow the connection- there appears to be a path into CHX though I haven't checked for conflicts round St John's but you then have a very tight turnround as the xx31 departure can't be moved.

OT - there is an xx01 path out of CHX, I wonder if there might be a demand for a service down the Chatham main line to the Medway Towns?

 

[Stephen42]

You could retime the MDE-CHX 7 minutes later to allow the connection- there appears to be a path into CHX though I haven't checked for conflicts round St John's but you then have a very tight turnround as the xx31 departure can't be moved.

OT - there is an xx01 path out of CHX, I wonder if there might be a demand for a service down the Chatham main line to the Medway Towns?

7 minutes later is in the middle of a 2 minute gap between Gravesend and Hayes services at Tanners Hill Junction so isn't possible. 10 minutes later fits at Tanners Hill but a service to Hayes conflicts at Parks Bridge. Suspect more than 6 minutes requires the return path changed and delaying the Charing Cross services brings the London bound services on the Maidstone line closer together. While there's much that isn't ideal about the new timetable, from a first glance many of the 'passenger friendly' changes have knock on impacts and trying to solve for one line may force worse issues elsewhere.

The Maidstone to Charing Cross services are in place of former Victoria ones, I doubt there is appetite to increase the off-peak service unless it pays for itself which seems unlikely for the Medway Towns.

 

[30907]

7 minutes later is in the middle of a 2 minute gap between Gravesend and Hayes services at Tanners Hill Junction so isn't possible. 10 minutes later fits at Tanners Hill but a service to Hayes conflicts at Parks Bridge.

Thanks for looking - I am not in the least surprised there would be problems.

 

[4BEP]

They are 2+2 in the outer coaches, 3+2 in the inner coaches. If you’d like to challenge that further, I will await your photos with the toilet in the background (centre coaches) and 2+2 chairs…

As I said, I must get out and about more, my assumption that the seating was the same throughout was mistaken.

 

[Barn]

The local MP is suggesting that the Bexleyheath line will receive off-peak Charing Cross services again:

Bexley Conservative MPs achieve reinstatement of off-peak Bexleyheath line Charing Cross services

Following extensive lobbying, Rt Hon Sir David Evennett MP and Louie French MP have welcomed the reinstatement of direct off-peak services to Charing Cross on the Bexleyheath line.

www.louiefrench.org.uk

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The local MP is suggesting that the Bexleyheath line will receive off-peak Charing Cross services again:

Bexley Conservative MPs achieve reinstatement of off-peak Bexleyheath line Charing Cross services

Following extensive lobbying, Rt Hon Sir David Evennett MP and Louie French MP have welcomed the reinstatement of direct off-peak services to Charing Cross on the Bexleyheath line.

www.louiefrench.org.uk

Not showing in RTT currently anyhow good to see local MPs pushing issues on behalf of constituents