Southeastern The Key Problem

[CoastlinerEast]

Yesterday evening, I booked a train ticket from Plumstead to Tonbridge using the key. This morning when I went to Plumstead the ticket machines did not have the key on there and the ticket office was closed at the time I went. When I got to Tonbridge I explained to the gateline staff and nicely lemme through as this is the first time I've used the key.

However later this afternoon when I was entering Tonbridge Station the guy behind the ticket office was trying to tell me how my ticket wasn't valid when the ticket was on my phone but could not load, there was no reference number on it. Has anyone had an issue with the key?

 

[Wallsendmag]

Did you try tapping you card on the gates?

 

[CoastlinerEast]

I tapped on the readers at Plumstead and it declined it.

 

[BluePenguin]

This is a very strange situation. I think your best reporting this to Southeastern to investigate.

If a ticket from Tonbridge is rejected at Tonbridge and Southeastern staff are rejecting their own companies key cards and claiming they are invalid at their own stations, then something is seriously wrong.

Every time I go on YouTube Southeastern’s advert plays about how brilliant and convenient their key cards are. After the enormous push to advertise and encourage the use of key cards, they could really do without this sort of incident happening when people do.

 

[Wallsendmag]

This is a very strange situation. I think your best reporting this to Southeastern to investigate.

If a ticket from Tonbridge is rejected at Tonbridge and Southeastern staff are rejecting their own companies key cards and claiming they are invalid at their own stations, then something is seriously wrong.

Every time I go on YouTube Southeastern’s advert plays about how brilliant and convenient their key cards are. After the enormous push to advertise and encourage the use of key cards, they could really do without this sort of incident happening when people do.

I think the problem is not having the product loaded onto the card rather than the product not being valid. ITSO unlike ToD, in most cases need a specific location for the collection

 

[Argyle 1980]

I ended up binning my SE key. More trouble than it was ever worth and think I only ever once managed to successfully get a ticket on it.
Main problems I encountered with it at ticket machines was only anytime any permitted fares seemed to sow for it. £48 for a return from Worthing to Dover opposed to £14 if trying to buy a normal card ticket.
I can buy a ticket for a non SE journey in less than a minute on my phone but a SE journey takes considerably longer, plus factor in queuing at the machine and them punching in the number ect.

I don't know just wh SE are so anti mobile/Eticket? Even their sister company GTR now has Etickets as their default delivery option when booking online.
On your instance here, a mobile/eticket would have been far easier than going through the rigmarole of loading tickets to a card.
I know their default response is that they don't have gate scanners, but neither do a lot of other TOCs, who all manage perfectly fine accepting and selling them without scanners.
The Key maybe good for season tickets, but it's not very suitable for individual journeys.
SE were flogging a dead horse when they introduced them at a time when other TOCs had already started moving away from them.
Perhaps if they made them like Southerns Key cards and function more like oyster cards with key go, then they would be a lot more practical.

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

I don't know just wh SE are so anti mobile/Eticket? Even their sister company GTR now has Etickets as their default delivery option when booking online.

I believe it's a concern about how long it takes per passenger at the gate, generally longer than tapping a card. It is odd that GTR doesn't seem to have those concerns, but there may be particular SE stations that inspire the policy.

On the other hand I don't think using their or any smart card is necessarily a problem given that the app can load it onto the card with no trouble (or collect at the gate). It is also possible for the phone itself to behave as a smart card, or as a bank card tied to that one use, but I don't know if anyone does this yet.

 

[paul1609]

I don't know just wh SE are so anti mobile/Eticket? Even their sister company GTR now has Etickets as their default delivery option when booking online.

I don't think that Southeastern are anti mobile/e tickets per se. Its just that the income from SE stations to other TOCs (outside the travel card area) is tiny. SE are more tied to Tfl/LU than other TOCs. Until (if) there is a whole travel card acceptance it makes no sense for SE to adopt them.

 

[Argyle 1980]

SE have tried telling me several times that tickets to or from any National Rail station to or from a SE station CAN be bought and loaded onto The Key via a mobile device.
Absolutely 100% false.
The main problem I encountered with SE that isn't totally Key related was when most TOCs started to phase out orange card tickets a couple of years ago. One morning I got on the train as normal at Saltash and tried to buy a return to Folkestone and the guard said they are now blocked from issuing because they don't accept the newer QR tickets. On this occasion he told me to go to the ticket office at Paddington on arrival and get my ticket there. Now the only purchasing option is a 20 mile round trip to Liskeard or Plymouth to buy in advance or via post if more than a week in advance.
There have been a few occasions I've had to make this journey short notice and now find £15/£20 in a cab to Plymouth instead of a short bus trip to Saltash is far less hassle than trying to but a point to point ticket onboard where sometimes I've been asked to buy a single to Paddington and then get it refunded at Paddington and buy a new ticket for the whole journey.
I asked SE what their take on this was and their stock response every time is "buy and load your ticket onto the Key" which I know cannot be done. Quite why it can't be done is a mystery. I had a mess around with the TVM at Aylesham and Dover Priory and low and behold, the list of available stations was severely shortened. Bizarrely Accrington showed as the first station alphabetically that it could be done too, but the majority of majority UK destinations were absent from the list. I tried a similar thing with my Southern KeyGo card at Barnham station the same way only this time, most destinations did actually appear.
Also SEs TVMs at most of it's smaller stations are non standard it seems (what SE told me on Twitter)
I know your asked to select a collection station, which is normally irrelevant as you can collect at a different station, but these machines don't show up as a collection option on booking sites and your instructed to collect at an alternative station.

 

[Wallsendmag]

SE have tried telling me several times that tickets to or from any National Rail station to or from a SE station CAN be bought and loaded onto The Key via a mobile device.
Absolutely 100% false.
The main problem I encountered with SE that isn't totally Key related was when most TOCs started to phase out orange card tickets a couple of years ago. One morning I got on the train as normal at Saltash and tried to buy a return to Folkestone and the guard said they are now blocked from issuing because they don't accept the newer QR tickets. On this occasion he told me to go to the ticket office at Paddington on arrival and get my ticket there. Now the only purchasing option is a 20 mile round trip to Liskeard or Plymouth to buy in advance or via post if more than a week in advance.
There have been a few occasions I've had to make this journey short notice and now find £15/£20 in a cab to Plymouth instead of a short bus trip to Saltash is far less hassle than trying to but a point to point ticket onboard where sometimes I've been asked to buy a single to Paddington and then get it refunded at Paddington and buy a new ticket for the whole journey.
I asked SE what their take on this was and their stock response every time is "buy and load your ticket onto the Key" which I know cannot be done. Quite why it can't be done is a mystery. I had a mess around with the TVM at Aylesham and Dover Priory and low and behold, the list of available stations was severely shortened. Bizarrely Accrington showed as the first station alphabetically that it could be done too, but the majority of majority UK destinations were absent from the list. I tried a similar thing with my Southern KeyGo card at Barnham station the same way only this time, most destinations did actually appear.
Also SEs TVMs at most of it's smaller stations are non standard it seems (what SE told me on Twitter)
I know your asked to select a collection station, which is normally irrelevant as you can collect at a different station, but these machines don't show up as a collection option on booking sites and your instructed to collect at an alternative station.

Thats info from SE is definately wrong as I control the enablement of different fulfilment types at the TOC I work for and we have only enabled a very small specific set of ticket types on Smartcards.

 

[Argyle 1980]

Thats info from SE is definately wrong as I control the enablement of different fulfilment types at the TOC I work for and we have only enabled a very small specific set of ticket types on Smartcards.

I'd be intrigued to know where SE think they are going with the Key in it's current format. As a platform for season tickets, it still is a far more effective platform that paper and photocard tickets for obvious reasons, but as an everyday ticketing platform for odd trips, then it's an absolute dead horse.
Southern have kept evolving theirs and have made it extremely versatile, where as SEs is one dimensional and often only supports more expensive anytime/any permitted route tickets from TVMs.
I'd be interested to know what SE's usage figures are for such use outside of ST use because outside of general commuting times, I've seldom ever observed anyone using one.

 

[Haywain]

SE have tried telling me several times that tickets to or from any National Rail station to or from a SE station CAN be bought and loaded onto The Key via a mobile device.
Absolutely 100% false.

The Southeastern website says:

You can use your Key to buy single, return and season tickets, it’s totally flexible. You are also able to buy tickets for most other train companies across mainland Britain and TfL, so you get straight to your destination with just one purchase.

That statement is true, but it perhaps should be clearer that it doesn't by any means cover all National Rail journeys.

The main problem I encountered with SE that isn't totally Key related was when most TOCs started to phase out orange card tickets a couple of years ago. One morning I got on the train as normal at Saltash and tried to buy a return to Folkestone and the guard said they are now blocked from issuing because they don't accept the newer QR tickets. On this occasion he told me to go to the ticket office at Paddington on arrival and get my ticket there. Now the only purchasing option is a 20 mile round trip to Liskeard or Plymouth to buy in advance or via post if more than a week in advance.
<snip>
I asked SE what their take on this was and their stock response every time is "buy and load your ticket onto the Key" which I know cannot be done. Quite why it can't be done is a mystery.

There are many journeys that are not available on e-ticket because the journey crosses London and TfL do not accept barcoded tickets. These journeys may not be made available on smartcards by the fare setter as long distance operators take the view that journeys that will generally require seat reservations are not suitable for smartcard fulfilment. For your journey from Saltash to Folkestone the fare setter is Great Western so this is out of the hands of Southeastern.

 

[Argyle 1980]

The Southeastern website says:

That statement is true, but it perhaps should be clearer that it doesn't by any means cover all National Rail journeys.


There are many journeys that are not available on e-ticket because the journey crosses London and TfL do not accept barcoded tickets. These journeys may not be made available on smartcards by the fare setter as long distance operators take the view that journeys that will generally require seat reservations are not suitable for smartcard fulfilment. For your journey from Saltash to Folkestone the fare setter is Great Western so this is out of the hands of Southeastern.

So how has it been allowed that there are now no ticket fulfilment options for an ever increasing number of journeys as TOCs phase out orange card tickets in favour of paper QR tickets? Basically if you start your journey at any unstaffed station without a TVM, then there will be no fulfilment options.

As for SE's dinosaur approach to E and mobile tickets, I know of someone who was penalty fared at Charing Cross with an outward portion of a super off peak day return from St Albans to London Terminals for which she changed platforms at London Bridge. She was at first told by the revenue staff it's not permitted to to travel on a booking confirmation (that's what revenue thought the Eticket was)
Even after she showed them booking confirmation email and parts of the ticket that clearly state all London Terminals it's valid too and also the note that says "show this ticket on a device or print it" they were still not having any of it.
Obviously the penalty fare got cancelled pretty sharply but I'd hate to think how many people have fallen foul of this.
Also now that Southern have fully rolled out Eticket, there's a lot of mobile apps that will only offer e ticket fulfilment if it's one of the options available now. Problem with that is there is now quite a few journeys like Marsh link stations to say Gatwick Airport for which travel via Ashford/Tonbridge (route Edenbridge) is fully valid and permitted, and is often also the quickest route. What is SE going to do about this?

 

[Haywain]

So how has it been allowed that there are now no ticket fulfilment options for an ever increasing number of journeys as TOCs phase out orange card tickets in favour of paper QR tickets?

There are no journeys for which 'orange card tickets' are not available as a fulfilment option. There may, however, be stations where such ticket cannot be purchased but then there are many stations where no tickets can be purchased.

I know of someone who was penalty fared at Charing Cross with an outward portion of a super off peak day return from St Albans to London Terminals for which she changed platforms at London Bridge. She was at first told by the revenue staff it's not permitted to to travel on a booking confirmation (that's what revenue thought the Eticket was)
Even after she showed them booking confirmation email and parts of the ticket that clearly state all London Terminals it's valid too and also the note that says "show this ticket on a device or print it" they were still not having any of it.

A ticket from St Albans to London Terminals is not valid at Charing Cross and neither is a ticket from St Albans to London Thameslink.

Also now that Southern have fully rolled out Eticket, there's a lot of mobile apps that will only offer e ticket fulfilment if it's one of the options available now. Problem with that is there is now quite a few journeys like Marsh link stations to say Gatwick Airport for which travel via Ashford/Tonbridge (route Edenbridge) is fully valid and permitted, and is often also the quickest route. What is SE going to do about this?

I have no idea what you are trying to say here, but as this is a thread about 'The Key' I would suggest you start a new thread to discuss Southeastern's implementation of e-Tickets.

 

[philthetube]

There are no journeys for which 'orange card tickets' are not available as a fulfilment option. There may, however, be stations where such ticket cannot be purchased but then there are many stations where no tickets can be purchased.

True but if you then board a train where orange card tickets are not available either, things begin to get interesting.

 

[Wallsendmag]

True but if you then board a train where orange card tickets are not available either, things begin to get interesting.

Not on LNER, our onboard TIS can issue you a receipt with a CTR on to travel on that service then if you need a CCST to complete your journey you can collect it from a TVM when you leave the train.

 

[Bungle965]

Not on LNER, our onboard TIS can issue you a receipt with a CTR on to travel on that service then if you need a CCST to complete your journey you can collect it from a TVM when yo leave the train.

Theoretically a similar setup could be possible with GWR now that they have moved over to TTK, they don’t seem to have implemented it however.
Virgin (and now Avanti) way is a little bit more cackhanded in that you have to exchange your paper roll ticket at Euston ticket office for CCST.

 

[infobleep]

Not on LNER, our onboard TIS can issue you a receipt with a CTR on to travel on that service then if you need a CCST to complete your journey you can collect it from a TVM when you leave the train.

That sounds sensible. Perhaps you could publise it to GWR, so they could consider introducing something similar.