Southeastern Services to Blackfriars

[WizCastro197]

I am sure that Southeastern operated or still do operate services to very few destinations to the south east from Blackfriars. I am not sure if they still do as I haven’t seen any. I know they are in the peak.

Couple Questions

Do they continue to operate

Do they operate to good passenger numbers?
I thought that because Blackfriars was surrounded by southeasterly bound stations
(CHX and Cannon Street)

With the Thameslink Services now in place and the Thameslink programme fully complete or almost, are the SEs really needed?

 

[NSE]

They do operate in the peaks 100%. I *think* there was talk of an off peak service. There’s a thread about the new timetable somewhere on here.

 

[JonathanH]

Do they continue to operate

Southeastern at Blackfriars next Wednesday
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...4/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=SE

With the Thameslink Services now in place and the Thameslink programme fully complete or almost, are the SEs really needed?

To some extent, Blackfriars effectively is to Victoria what Cannon Street is to Charing Cross, an alternative terminal further east but on a smaller scale. However, Chatham and stations further east get direct trains to Cannon Street using the Chislehurst curves.

 

[tbwbear]

That extract from RTT - WTT posted by JonathanH is fascinating.

Before February this year there were only 3 SE passenger services into Blackfriars and all are shown on the extract. These were the 0707 and 0807 arrivals from Ashford International via Maidstone East and the 1739 departure to Ashford International via Maidstone East. A little further back there were two evening services IIRC - one at 17XX and one at 18XX.

These services are effectively ancient relics of the time (before 1900) when the London Chatham and Dover Railway had Holborn Viaduct as its City Terminus and Victoria as its West End one, whereas the South Eastern Railway had Cannon Street and Charing Cross. The creation of the Chislehurst curves after the LCDR and SER merger created the option to vary between all 4 terminals, as JonathanH points out, but the main reason these 3 services still don't use the Chislehurst curves and go into London Bridge and Cannon Street is, I believe, capacity constraints.

Under the original Thameslink proposal there were plans to run two Thameslink trains an hour from Maidstone East, via Chiselhurst, London Bridge, through Blackfriars, Farringdon and on to Cambridge. If this had been implemented as an all day option, it would probably have killed these 3 services, but it failed (again on capacity grounds) to materialise.

The cancellation of the Maidstone to Cambridge service has caused a lot of consternation in Kent, and as a possible partial sop (a very cynical one IMHO) to these feelings, SE has (from February this year) started running off peak Maidstone-Blackfriars trains. Basically they turn the 0807 arrival around and send it back to Maidstone at 0832. It then works back to Blackfriars and returns to Maidstone at 1140. I think it gets replaced by another unit in Maidstone which comes up from Ashford (e.c.s.) and then returns to Blackfriars to work the 1440 to Maidstone. This finally returns again to London in time to work the 1739 back to Ashford International.

The time-honoured morning and evening trains are well patronised as they are the only direct fast services to the City for passengers on the (ex-LCDR) Swanley-Maidstone East-Ashford line. Before COVID the two up trains could be packed leaving Swanley. However, from casual personal observation the new off-peak ones seem to be running virtually empty.

What is fascinating about the RTT extract is all the e.c.s workings - surely the ones from Sevenoaks are TL not SE. Could it be an error ? And if you look at the occupancy of Platform 4 between the arrival of the 1335 from Maidstone and its subsequent departure to Maidstone at 1440, there is an e.c.s. that also uses Platform 4 between 1402 and 1409. That doesn't make much sense either. Any ideas ?

 

[DA1]

What is fascinating about the RTT extract is all the e.c.s workings - surely the ones from Sevenoaks are TL not SE.

Definitely SE. I believe this is a Grove Park roads duty to ensure route competence and knowledge is maintained.

 

[350401]

I use the 17.39 Maidstone East from Blackfriars regularly. The train is very well used, often has standees on departure, and it picks up a fair few people at both Elephant and Denmark Hill - I’m guessing changing from the Northern Line / London Overground respectively. A lot get off at Bromley South, myself included - it’s a very handy quick link to the Bromley suburbs from the City, compared to going via Victoria, or getting a TfL Bus from Grove Park.

 

[BJames]

I caught Southeastern to Sydenham Hill the other weekend when the line was diverted there from Victoria - train was reasonably busy. Useful divert terminus.

 

[Surreytraveller]

I use the 17.39 Maidstone East from Blackfriars regularly. The train is very well used, often has standees on departure, and it picks up a fair few people at both Elephant and Denmark Hill - I’m guessing changing from the Northern Line / London Overground respectively. A lot get off at Bromley South, myself included - it’s a very handy quick link to the Bromley suburbs from the City, compared to going via Victoria, or getting a TfL Bus from Grove Park.

Denmark Hill is a destination in its own right, with the hospitals there

 

[Benjaminmorgan]

I saw Hayes line being diverted there last Sunday

 

[brad465]

I saw Hayes line being diverted there last Sunday

Yes there are a number of weekend closures affecting Cannon Street and Charing X. Most services are being diverted to Victoria, other than Hastings services going to London Bridge bay platforms and Hayes' services going to Blackfriars, presumably as Victoria can only take so many extra services.

 

[tbwbear]

Definitely SE. I believe this is a Grove Park roads duty to ensure route competence and knowledge is maintained.

Interesting. So, is that all with SE stock then ? Or would it still show as SE if it were SE drivers on TL trains ?

Am I right in thinking there is a little bit of crossover between SE and TL with drivers and trains ? Or have I got that wrong ?

 

[Surreytraveller]

Interesting. So, is that all with SE stock then ? Or would it still show as SE if it were SE drivers on TL trains ?

Am I right in thinking there is a little bit of crossover between SE and TL with drivers and trains ? Or have I got that wrong ?

Southeastern drivers no longer drive Thameslink trains.
They used to, but some where TUPEd over for the May 2018 timetable change.

 

[43066]

With the Thameslink Services now in place and the Thameslink programme fully complete or almost, are the SEs really needed?

I suppose GTR don’t run into the parts of Kent the longer range SE Blackfriars emanate from. When (if!) the Ashford GTR services start that might reduce the case for them somewhat.

Interesting. So, is that all with SE stock then ? Or would it still show as SE if it were SE drivers on TL trains ?

Some SE mainline services run round there, some ECS workings (and diversions if the Chatham mainline is blocked). Not all Grove Park drivers sign it, Orpington still do AFAIK. Route learning could be done in the cabs of either (driver permitting of course!).

Am I right in thinking there is a little bit of crossover between SE and TL with drivers and trains ? Or have I got that wrong ?

Historically Victoria and Orpington based SE drivers signed 319s (latterly 700s) and worked GTR services as far north as Bedford. That arrangement ended in 2018, with Victoria losing it prior to that IIRC.

 

[Busaholic]

I saw Hayes line being diverted there last Sunday

May be the only opportunity to go from Elephant to the stations on the Hayes line if the Bakerloo second extension never gets there.

 

[ijmad]

Didn't there used to be some SE peak services from Blackfriars to Kent House via Herne Hill & West Dulwich? For a while they were run as Thameslinks before London Bridge and Bermondsey Diveunder were finished, but after that was all done they were going to run as Southeasterns and terminate at Blackfriars, but seem to have entirely disappeared now.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Didn't there used to be some SE peak services from Blackfriars to Kent House via Herne Hill & West Dulwich? For a while they were run as Thameslinks before London Bridge and Bermondsey Diveunder were finished, but after that was all done they were going to run as Southeasterns and terminate at Blackfriars, but seem to have entirely disappeared now.

They ran to the Beckenham Junction Bay Platform.

 

[ijmad]

They ran to the Beckenham Junction Bay Platform.

Ah yes that's right. Thanks for the correction. When did they drop out of the timetable, was it a pandemic thing, or before that?

 

[43066]

Didn't there used to be some SE peak services from Blackfriars to Kent House via Herne Hill & West Dulwich? For a while they were run as Thameslinks before London Bridge and Bermondsey Diveunder were finished, but after that was all done they were going to run as Southeasterns and terminate at Blackfriars, but seem to have entirely disappeared now.

They ran to the Beckenham Junction Bay Platform.

From memory pre 2018 there were SE services from Beck J to both Vic and BFS, and (one or two per day?) GTR Bedford services that originated at Beck J .

 

[Surreytraveller]

I suppose GTR don’t run into the parts of Kent the longer range SE Blackfriars emanate from. When (if!) the Ashford GTR services start that might reduce the case for them somewhat.



Some SE mainline services run round there, some ECS workings (and diversions if the Chatham mainline is blocked). Not all Grove Park drivers sign it, Orpington still do AFAIK. Route learning could be done in the cabs of either (driver permitting of course!).



Historically Victoria and Orpington based SE drivers signed 319s (latterly 700s) and worked GTR services as far north as Bedford. That arrangement ended in 2018, with Victoria losing it prior to that IIRC.

It was a wierd set-up. North of City Thameslink they were a Thameslink service, south thereof a SouthEastern service, even though it was a through train

 

[Magdalia]

A key date in the history of these trains is March 2009. That's when the old Blackfriars bay platforms and Farringdon-Moorgate were closed for the start of reconstruction work at both Blackfriars and Farringdon.

Basically trains previously running into Blackfriars and out of Moorgate, or into Moorgate and out of Blackfriars, were joined into single services by running through the Thameslink core. Each train was a Thameslink train north of Blackfriars and a South Eastern train south of Blackfriars, just as if they had still been using Moorgate and the old Blackfriars bays.

South of the river most starting/terminating stations were quite close to London, but there were three trains in each direction that ran to/from beyond the Medway. The March 2009 timetable has morning trains from Bearsted, Ashford and Rochester to Bedford, and evening trains from Bedford to Gillingham (2) and Ashford.

 

[thedbdiboy]

Ah yes that's right. Thanks for the correction. When did they drop out of the timetable, was it a pandemic thing, or before that?

Yes, they were removed during the pandemic and never reinstated. They were the last remnant of the original SED Holborn Viaduct trains that (after Thameslink) terminated at City Thameslink ad berthed in Smithfield sidings. When Thameslink 2000 was finally built, they were (as described above) combined with a Thameslink service to make a through working; and then once the Thameslink revised timetable came in became Blackfriars - Beckenham services. They were the least busy of all the peak hour workings pre-Covid; not empty but rarely packed full, and therefore their reinstatement seems unlikely at any point soon (if ever)

 

[Dave91131]

To some extent, Blackfriars effectively is to Victoria what Cannon Street is to Charing Cross, an alternative terminal further east but on a smaller scale.

I always find myself surprised that, whilst not doubting the accuracy of the quoted statement, Cannon Street actually has more platforms than Charing Cross.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

I always find myself surprised that, whilst not doubting the accuracy of the quoted statement, Cannon Street actually has more platforms than Charing Cross.

Cannon Street's overall capacity is lower than Charing Cross's though due to the 2 track section at Borough Market Junction.

 

[WizCastro197]

Cannon Street's overall capacity is lower than Charing Cross's though due to the 2 track section at Borough Market Junction.

What does the Blackfriars/Charing Cross section have? 4/6/8?

Unrealted But is the small chord from Cannon Street to Rejoin the CHX lines for ECS? Always wonder why it was built.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

What does the Balckfriars/Charing Cross section have? 4/6/8?

4 all the way to from Charing Cross to London Bridge, but it functionally goes down to 2 tracks between Ewer Street Junction and London Bridge, where Southeastern use 2 of the lines and Thameslink use the other 2 lines.

 

[30907]

But is the small chord from Cannon Street to Rejoin the CHX lines for ECS? Always wonder why it was built.

In the beginning the SER had a policy of running trains via Cannon St to Charing X.
This ended with electrification or possibly a few years before, bar the odd late night train.
(I recall a Cannon St-Waterloo E or possibly Charing cross shuttle during engineering work in the late 70s.)

Since then its main use has been ECS to/from Stewarts Lane via Ludgate Hill or Blackfriars.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

In the beginning the SER had a policy of running trains via Cannon St to Charing X.
This ended with electrification or possibly a few years before, bar the odd late night train.
(I recall a Cannon St-Waterloo E or possibly Charing cross shuttle during engineering work in the late 70s.)

Since then its main use has been ECS to/from Stewarts Lane via Ludgate Hill or Blackfriars.

Certainly no ecs's from Stewarts Lane have used it for a long while.

In fact, currently I don't think there is anything booked to use in the WTT at all, apart from perhaps the odd seasonal or test train.

 

[ijmad]

There were a considerable number of late night Charing X - Cannon Street - London Bridge services during the closure of the Charing Cross platforms at London Bridge during the Thameslink rebuild.

 

[Edsmith]

I use the 17.39 Maidstone East from Blackfriars regularly. The train is very well used, often has standees on departure, and it picks up a fair few people at both Elephant and Denmark Hill - I’m guessing changing from the Northern Line / London Overground respectively. A lot get off at Bromley South, myself included - it’s a very handy quick link to the Bromley suburbs from the City, compared to going via Victoria, or getting a TfL Bus from Grove Park.

It's certainly got busier since the Denmark Hill stop was added.

 

[4BEP]

The time honoured peak services to Blackfriars via Maidstone will disappear with the December 2022 timetable. My earliest recollection of this service was of a single up morning service and a similar down service with ECS workings back to Maidstone for stabling in the siding on the London side of the bridge over the River Medway. In the early 50s the stock was HALs with EPBs later.