Southeastern revenue staff making an appearance

[Antman]

Have you looked at a map?
The reason why Thamesmead people use Plumstead instead of Woolwich Arsenal has nothing to do with the barriers at Woolwich. It's because Plumstead is more than a mile closer to Thamesmead.

I don't need to look at a map I know the area well enough and Woolwich Arsenal would generally be a more convenient for bus/train interchange for a number of reasons.

I look forward to your next fascinating post.

 

[Jonny]

It's likely a lot of people from Thamesmead make their bus/rail connection at Plumstead rather than Woolwich Arsenal where there are ticket gates and it does seem an obvious place for ticket checks.

Have you looked at a map?
The reason why Thamesmead people use Plumstead instead of Woolwich Arsenal has nothing to do with the barriers at Woolwich. It's because Plumstead is more than a mile closer to Thamesmead.

I don't need to look at a map I know the area well enough and Woolwich Arsenal would generally be a more convenient for bus/train interchange for a number of reasons.

I look forward to your next fascinating post.

For starters, a cursory view of Google Earth suggests that the natural point to "feed in" to the railway is at Plumstead. Also a quick check of an information site suggests that the vast majority of services call there and so it seems like the natural place, barriers or otherwise. In fact, a cursory view of it on the station facilities on the National Rail website https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations-and-destinations/stations-made-easy/plumstead-station-plan suggests that a blockade is going to get rather ^cozy^ very quickly

 

[bionic]

What does Thamesmead have to do with fare evasion? Are people trying to suggest that residents of a council estate are more likely to evade fares than those in private housing? What's the scoop here? If there is a suggestion that Thamesmead residents are more likely to evade fares than people in other areas I'd like to see some evidence of that rather than throwaway remarks.

 

[Antman]

What does Thamesmead have to do with fare evasion? Are people trying to suggest that residents of a council estate are more likely to evade fares than those in private housing? What's the scoop here? If there is a suggestion that Thamesmead residents are more likely to evade fares than people in other areas I'd like to see some evidence of that rather than throwaway remarks.

Just the rather obvious fact that there are heavy flows from Thamesmead, and other areas to the east of Woolwich, and if you don't want to pay for your rail journey Plumstead is your friend which might explain why that station was chosen for the high profile operation. For those with valid tickets Woolwich Arsenal would be a better option, far less of a walk for one thing.

 

[bionic]

Just the rather obvious fact that there are heavy flows from Thamesmead, and other areas to the east of Woolwich, and if you don't want to pay for your rail journey Plumstead is your friend which might explain why that station was chosen for the high profile operation. For those with valid tickets Woolwich Arsenal would be a better option, far less of a walk for one thing.

A bit like what happens at Shortlands then with people walking there to avoid the barriers at Bromley South when going to Bromley town centre.

 

[Antman]

A bit like what happens at Shortlands then with people walking there to avoid the barriers at Bromley South when going to Bromley town centre.

Indeed and people using Ladywell to avoid the ticket gates at Lewisham is another example.

 

[ScotGG]

Woolwich Dockyard too instead of Woolwich Arsenal. It's only half a mile west and for anyone coming from the west it's not a long walk at all to the town centre.

Dockyard doesn't seem too hard to gate though is a quiet station (based on official numbers anyway) though that will change with all the housing planned nearby. Plumstead could be gated by closing one exit as part of the approved rebuild for disability access. Despite some stations being tricky plenty aren't. Crayford is another. The east-bound exit has ample space for gates which could be remotely monitored.

 

[lancastria]

I don't need to look at a map I know the area well enough and Woolwich Arsenal would generally be a more convenient for bus/train interchange for a number of reasons.

I look forward to your next fascinating post.

You do need to look at a map.
Here's a link https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4823198,0.1238178,12.64z.
When you open it up, you'll see that Thamesmead is north east of Plumstead. To get to Thamesmead from Woolwich Arsenal you have to go either past (by road) or through Plumstead station.
So, the primary reason Thamesmead people use Plumstead is not because they are crooks looking to dodge fares but because it is more convenient to do so.
If you are a commuter I daresay you do much the same and choose the quickest way home, most often.

As I've noted on here already, Plumstead (like Charlton) doesn't lend itself easily to the installation of barriers because of a relatively small ticket hall/concourse on the up side of the station. Unless of course they installed two sets of barriers, with the extra one on the down platform

 

[bionic]

Its all well and good installing barriers at these stations along the north Kent line but you've also got to look at staffing. Lone working at these locations would be thoroughly unpleasant and, dare I say, dangerous for the station staff. Walking out of Plumstead sidings late at night and passing back is unpleasant enough (and that's hanging about in the sidings until just before the train is due and then travelling in a middle cab away from the punters!). Sod actually working at those stations. It would need a team of staff to actually enforce anything there and to back each other up.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Just the rather obvious fact that there are heavy flows from Thamesmead, and other areas to the east of Woolwich, and if you don't want to pay for your rail journey Plumstead is your friend which might explain why that station was chosen for the high profile operation.

In other words, Plumstead is simply a very heavily used station (I just checked the figures - 1.5 M entrances and exits, comparable to Charlton, and far more than the other ungated stations along that stretch of line: Woolwich Dockyard/Belvedere/Erith/Slade Green). Therefore, even if the proportion of fare evaders in the same, a blockade should catch proportionately more people. Also worth pointing out that Plumstead is very close to, and therefore shares much of the same catchment area as, Woolwich Arsenal. It therefore probably picks up a fair few fare evaders who could use either station but who go to Plumstead specifically because it's ungated.

For those with valid tickets Woolwich Arsenal would be a better option, far less of a walk for one thing.

I don't think that's quite correct. If you're travelling from Thamesmead, then I would say the main routes - the 301 and 472 - both stop nearer to Plumstead station than to Woolwich Arsenal station (they stop at the public market, then Beresford Square). Add that to that buses can be quite slow between Plumstead and Woolwich, and I'd expect it to be quicker to get the train at Plumstead - and in rush hours you're more likely to get a seat.

Coming back towards Thamesmead, the situation is different because the nearest bus stop to Plumstead station towards Thamesmead is Plumstead bus garage - enough of a walk to probably make changing at Woolwich better.

(Obivously, if you want the DLR, not national rail, then you're going to change at Woolwich in both directions)

 

[Antman]

In other words, Plumstead is simply a very heavily used station (I just checked the figures - 1.5 M entrances and exits, comparable to Charlton, and far more than the other ungated stations along that stretch of line: Woolwich Dockyard/Belvedere/Erith/Slade Green). Therefore, even if the proportion of fare evaders in the same, a blockade should catch proportionately more people. Also worth pointing out that Plumstead is very close to, and therefore shares much of the same catchment area as, Woolwich Arsenal. It therefore probably picks up a fair few fare evaders who could use either station but who go to Plumstead specifically because it's ungated.



I don't think that's quite correct. If you're travelling from Thamesmead, then I would say the main routes - the 301 and 472 - both stop nearer to Plumstead station than to Woolwich Arsenal station (they stop at the public market, then Beresford Square). Add that to that buses can be quite slow between Plumstead and Woolwich, and I'd expect it to be quicker to get the train at Plumstead - and in rush hours you're more likely to get a seat.

Coming back towards Thamesmead, the situation is different because the nearest bus stop to Plumstead station towards Thamesmead is Plumstead bus garage - enough of a walk to probably make changing at Woolwich better.

(Obivously, if you want the DLR, not national rail, then you're going to change at Woolwich in both directions)

Exactly my point about journeys towards Thamesmead, going the other way probably not much difference but I'd still say Woolwich Arsenal was preferable.

 

[lancastria]

It's likely a lot of people from Thamesmead make their bus/rail connection at Plumstead rather than Woolwich Arsenal where there are ticket gates and it does seem an obvious place for ticket checks.

It seems, as has been noted on here, that you believe Thamesmead people make a choice to use Plumstead and not Woolwich Arsenal because they wish to avoid paying fares at the Woolwich barrier. This seems to me to be unsubstantiated bigotry, or opinion tossed off in a slack fashion.
I have demonstrated that this is not the case by the simple use of a map. You should try it.

Exactly my point about journeys towards Thamesmead, going the other way probably not much difference but I'd still say Woolwich Arsenal was preferable.

You were not making a point about journeys towards Thamesmead, you were making a sly jab at Thamesmead folk. And I refer you to my earlier link to google maps.

To get back to fare dodging on SE lines. My recent anecdotal experience on the Hayes line this Sunday was contradictory. Every person who got off the down train I was on at Catford swiped to leave the station, yet at Hayes only half the passengers did so. But then, I have scepticism towards qualitative experiences as a way of measuring fare evasion.

 

[Antman]

It seems, as has been noted on here, that you believe Thamesmead people make a choice to use Plumstead and not Woolwich Arsenal because they wish to avoid paying fares at the Woolwich barrier. This seems to me to be unsubstantiated bigotry, or opinion tossed off in a slack fashion.
I have demonstrated that this is not the case by the simple use of a map. You should try it.


You were not making a point about journeys towards Thamesmead, you were making a sly jab at Thamesmead folk. And I refer you to my earlier link to google maps.

To get back to fare dodgng on SE lines. My recent anecdotal experience on the Hayes line this Sunday was contradictory. Every person who got off the down train I was on at Catford swiped to leave the station, yet at Hayes only half the passengers did so. But then, I have scepticism towards qualitative experiences as a way of measuring fare evasion.

You have not demonstrated anything with the use of a map you just continue to make sweeping assumptions on subjects that you clearly know very little about. I won't bother replying to anything else you post.

 

[lancastria]

You have not demonstrated anything with the use of a map you just continue to make sweeping assumptions on subjects that you clearly know very little about. I won't bother replying to anything else you post.

I'm putting you on 'ignore'; there is nothing to be gained from talking to you.

 

[lancastria]

Its all well and good installing barriers at these stations along the north Kent line but you've also got to look at staffing. Lone working at these locations would be thoroughly unpleasant and, dare I say, dangerous for the station staff. Walking out of Plumstead sidings late at night and passing back is unpleasant enough (and that's hanging about in the sidings until just before the train is due and then travelling in a middle cab away from the punters!). Sod actually working at those stations. It would need a team of staff to actually enforce anything there and to back each other up.

I'm now puzzling over SE/BTP motives for the blockade, apart from the obvious one of catching criminals.
The choice of Plumstead appears to be a good one; they've had a great haul! What is SE trying to achieve? If it's deterence, then I'm sure that will work. If it is to gain intelligence about fare dodging, I suspect SE has confirmed what it already knew or at least now knows the extent of the problem at Plumstead.
So, what will SE do next? I suspect it will do nothing. The blockade is the cheapest method of fighting fare dodging, and I suspect that the costs of barriers at Plumstead (construction of barrier, reconstruction of part of station, cost of manning barrier for a substantial part of every weekday) is well known to SE, and one it chooses not to pay.
The status quo will prevail, with some fare dodgers deterred.

 

[sprunt]

You have not demonstrated anything with the use of a map you just continue to make sweeping assumptions on subjects that you clearly know very little about. I won't bother replying to anything else you post.

Please explain how it is "far less of a walk" - your words in post #184 of this thread - from Thamesmead (visible in the north east of the map below) to Woolwich (the westernmost of the three stations shown) than it is to Plumstead (the middle station).

 

[ComUtoR]

Not to throw fuel on the fire but...

I've always been informed that Abbey Wood is the de facto station for Thamesmead. Don't some of SE announcements actually say 'Abbey Wood for Thamesmead'

 

[ScotGG]

Thamesmead is divided by a spine road and elevated sewer. Quickest way to nearest station: South = Abbey Wood via bus (though walk isn't bad). North = Plumstead via bus.

 

[Antman]

Please explain how it is "far less of a walk" - your words in post #184 of this thread - from Thamesmead (visible in the north east of the map below) to Woolwich (the westernmost of the three stations shown) than it is to Plumstead (the middle station).

View attachment 69059

I haven't said anything about walking from Thamesmead, try paying attention eh?

 

[Antman]

Not to throw fuel on the fire but...

I've always been informed that Abbey Wood is the de facto station for Thamesmead. Don't some of SE announcements actually say 'Abbey Wood for Thamesmead'

Good point but it does rather depend whereabouts in Thamesmead and just to clarify the original point wasn't just about Thamesmead but points to the east of Woolwich where there are heavy bus flows.... 96,99,422 etc all very busy at peak times.

 

[sprunt]

I haven't said anything about walking from Thamesmead, try paying attention eh?

This is you, talking about flows from Thamesmead:

Just the rather obvious fact that there are heavy flows from Thamesmead, and other areas to the east of Woolwich, and if you don't want to pay for your rail journey Plumstead is your friend which might explain why that station was chosen for the high profile operation. For those with valid tickets Woolwich Arsenal would be a better option, far less of a walk for one thing.

"For those with valid tickets Woolwich Arsenal would be a better option, far less of a walk for one thing."

If that's not about walking from Thamesmead, try expressing yourself clearly eh? The fact remains that despite your entrenched nonsensical position, Plumstead is clearly the obvious station to use for Thamesmead residents, whether walking to the station or using the bus - indeed, every single bus from Thamesmead to Woolwich stops at Plumstead station before it gets to Woolwich.

 

[Antman]

This is you, talking about flows from Thamesmead:



"For those with valid tickets Woolwich Arsenal would be a better option, far less of a walk for one thing."

If that's not about walking from Thamesmead, try expressing yourself clearly eh? The fact remains that despite your entrenched nonsensical position, Plumstead is clearly the obvious station to use for Thamesmead residents, whether walking to the station or using the bus - indeed, every single bus from Thamesmead to Woolwich stops at Plumstead station before it gets to Woolwich.

If you read the whole thing you would know I was referring to bus passengers from Thamesmead and other areas east of Woolwich.

Buses from Thamesmead stop near Plumstead Station, in the opposite direction it's a considerable walk from station to bus stop and not a particularly pleasant one. I trust that explains things but if it doesn't I'm not going over it again and I'm slightly puzzled as to why anybody would get worked up about such minor details.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

What does Thamesmead have to do with fare evasion? Are people trying to suggest that residents of a council estate are more likely to evade fares than those in private housing? What's the scoop here? If there is a suggestion that Thamesmead residents are more likely to evade fares than people in other areas I'd like to see some evidence of that rather than throwaway remarks.

People from poorer backgrounds who need to travel are likely to evade a fare, especially if they know they can get away with it from an ungated station. As stated upthread, the most poor and the most rich are most likely to dodge their fares - obviously for differing reasons

 

[Busaholic]

A bit like what happens at Shortlands then with people walking there to avoid the barriers at Bromley South when going to Bromley town centre.

The lengths (or, rather, heights) some people will go to to avoid paying! That's a serious uphill slog in one direction, as I knew when I briefly ran a shop next to Shortlands station.

 

[Busaholic]

Not to throw fuel on the fire but...

I've always been informed that Abbey Wood is the de facto station for Thamesmead. Don't some of SE announcements actually say 'Abbey Wood for Thamesmead'

And, of course, the fabled Crossrail won't be stopping at Plumstead.

 

[lancastria]

People from poorer backgrounds who need to travel are likely to evade a fare, especially if they know they can get away with it from an ungated station. As stated upthread, the most poor and the most rich are most likely to dodge their fares - obviously for differing reasons

Really? Where did you find out about poor people being criminals? The Daily Mail?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Really? Where did you find out about poor people being criminals? The Daily Mail?

I have eyes.

I do actually travel on the railway nearly every day.

I see it first hand...

I often work in the Woolwich area....

 

[lancastria]

I have eyes.

I do actually travel on the railway nearly every day.

I see it first hand...

I often work in the Woolwich area....

Poor people, eh? What right have they to be on a train? I guess you must have checked their tickets?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Poor people, eh? What right have they to be on a train? I guess you must have checked their tickets?

I think you're rather over-reacting. It's pretty well established that there is a link between poverty and crime levels. For example

The new figures show that three-quarters of the boroughs in London with the highest levels of violent offending are also in the top 10 most deprived, while the same boroughs also have higher proportions of children under 20 living in poverty than the London average.

You can argue about which way the causation goes and what the reasons are (though, preferably, in a different thread) but I don't think you can dispute that poorer areas tend to see more crime in general - from which you can surmise that implies likely greater incidence of fare evasion. None of that implies that poor people (the vast majority of whom are likely to be honest) have any lesser right to be on a train.

 

[sprunt]

Buses from Thamesmead stop near Plumstead Station, in the opposite direction it's a considerable walk from station to bus stop and not a particularly pleasant one.

It's approximately 100 metres, past a block of shops. I guess it maybe doesn't hold up to the bucolic beauty of central Woolwich, but I'd confidently expect that it's no issue whatsoever to an overwhelming majority of people.