Southeastern Railway Fare Evasion Prosecution MG11

[Tajim02]

Hi, I was wondering if anyone can give me advice to what I’m going through at the moment.

On November 17, 2023 I was making my way back to university from visiting my family. My mother has been supporting me a lot with university, food and travel.

I arrived at Beckenham hill train station to get the train to go to Bromley south but I needed to catch that specific train to get to university on time the following day.

I called my mum to send me money for the ticket but at that point she was very busy but I needed to go on the train to catch the one from Bromley south so I went on it.

But as soon as I got to Bromley south I called my mum to send me the money and she did.

I was then approached by a ticket inspector and asked for my ticket I told him to give me a second as I was going to pay for my ticket on Trainline. But he waited patiently. His colleague came and asked me for tickets and he said to me “don’t try and send money to anybody else” I felt very uncomfortable and pressured I tried to explain to him what’s going on and he kept talking over me so I walked away to try to speak to someone else and he create a scene, that’s when police came over.

He asked for my name and address but because I’ve never experienced something like this before and also I’ve been having a hard time with uni and my personal life I panicked and gave false information.

He told me to go on my Apple ID, I did so and obviously he saw a different name and asked me if I lied, I said yes.

That’s when he cautioned me and read out my right. He said also “minimum £0 to 3 months in jail” he really got me there because I’ve never been in trouble with the law or experienced anything like that.

I think a month later I received a letter explaining I had to identify myself and explain what happened, I did so and a couple days later I’ve received a court summons. I haven’t been at rest as I have university issues and I’m worried about court because hearing that I have to go to court is a scary thing for someone who’s never been in trouble by the law. I was wondering if anyone can give me advice.

I would like to try and do an out of court settlement but I don’t know how and who to contact.

Thanks for taking the time to read my issue.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Welcome to the forum.

So, essentially, you travelled from Beckenham Hill to Bromley South on some date without having already bought/paid for your ticket before travelling/boarding the train? Is that basically it?

And did you have a ticket already for your onward journey from Bromley South to wherever?

 

[Tajim02]

Welcome to the forum.

So, essentially, you travelled from Beckenham Hill to Bromley South on some date without having already bought/paid for your ticket before travelling/boarding the train? Is that basically it?

And did you have a ticket already for your onward journey from Bromley South to wherever?

Yeah I didn’t buy it before I was going to buy it on Trainline but there wasn’t enough time & yeah that’s basically it.
Yes I bought my ticket from Bromley south to my final destination.

 

[AlterEgo]

This case is going to be complicated by the fact you gave false details and the police got involved. If you caused a “scene” it may not help you.

What did you say in response to the first correspondence? The specifics of what you said are important.

 

[Tajim02]

The police was only there to calm me down because he knew I was worried & when they first approached me?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Apr 2023 ==

He only asked to see my ticket and I said hold on or one second and he waited that’s when his colleagues came and was being rude to me.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Apr 2023 ==

This case is going to be complicated by the fact you gave false details and the police got involved. If you caused a “scene” it may not help you.

What did you say in response to the first correspondence? The specifics of what you said are important.

This case is going to be complicated by the fact you gave false details and the police got involved. If you caused a “scene” it may not help you.

What did you say in response to the first correspondence? The specifics of what you said are important.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Apr 2023 ==

Sorry I’m new to this. There wasn’t really a scene it was the police didn’t take any of my details down Or from the inspector

 

[WesternLancer]

Try not to worry too much but please try and answer these clearly and in order as your posts could be clearer, your answers will help people give you good advice:

1) Do you mean November 17 2022?

2) Have you received any letters about this from the Railway? Given the time since November I would expect you to have been contacted by now.

3) Did you give them a false address?

4) Did you go on to correct that address when they worked out you had given a false name?

The risk is that they have sent papers and court related stuff to a false address, but given they they found out your name you may still have been taken to court withotu knowing it - eventually that will catch up with you I suspect, and create a problem down the line.

5) As you are at University I think it would be a very good idea to speak yo your student union or university welfare service about this - they may be able to help you properly at no charge. Have you been in touch with them?

You could probably get an out of court settlement on this pretty easily (it's not a story of persistent deliberate fare evasion) - but you probably need to engage with the Railway somehow - it's probably SE Trains at those stations and their staff.

 

[AlterEgo]

Try not to worry too much but please try and answer these clearly and in order as your posts could be clearer, your answers will help people give you good advice:

1) Do you mean November 17 2022?

2) Have you received any letters about this from the Railway? Given the time since November I would expect you to have been contacted by now.

3) Did you give them a false address?

4) Did you go on to correct that address when they worked out you had given a false name?

The risk is that they have sent papers and court related stuff to a false address, but given they they found out your name you may still have been taken to court withotu knowing it - eventually that will catch up with you I suspect, and create a problem down the line.

The OP mentions getting a letter and responding to it. It would be helpful if they clarified exactly what they said in response.

 

[furlong]

Start from the summons. What is the "charge" on it? It might help to upload a photo with details that identify you and the specific case covered up.

 

[WesternLancer]

The OP mentions getting a letter and responding to it. It would be helpful if they clarified exactly what they said in response.

ah thanks - missed that

OP - did you keep that letter? Did you keep a copy of your reply? How long ago was it? can you post copies of the stuff with none of your personal details showing or ref numbers

when was / is court summons date?

It would still be possible to write back again to train company asking for this to be settled and the court case be withdrawn I would think.

 

[Tajim02]

Try not to worry too much but please try and answer these clearly and in order as your posts could be clearer, your answers will help people give you good advice:

1) Do you mean November 17 2022?

2) Have you received any letters about this from the Railway? Given the time since November I would expect you to have been contacted by now.

3) Did you give them a false address?

4) Did you go on to correct that address when they worked out you had given a false name?

The risk is that they have sent papers and court related stuff to a false address, but given they they found out your name you may still have been taken to court withotu knowing it - eventually that will catch up with you I suspect, and create a problem down the line.

5) As you are at University I think it would be a very good idea to speak yo your student union or university welfare service about this - they may be able to help you properly at no charge. Have you been in touch with them?

You could probably get an out of court settlement on this pretty easily (it's not a story of persistent deliberate fare evasion) - but you probably need to engage with the Railway somehow - it's probably SE Trains at those stations and their staff.

1. Yes, I mean 2022.

2. Yes, I received two letters, one to identify me and two about the court summons.

3. Yes, I have them a false address but when he found out about my real name I gave them my real address too.

4. Yes.

5. That’s a good idea. No I haven’t been in touch with them.

To get a out of court settlement would be good as I don’t want to go to court and to get a criminal record.

Thank you.

 

[Tajim02]

Start from the summons. What is the "charge" on it? It might help to upload a photo with details that identify you and the specific case covered up.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Apr 2023 ==

ah thanks - missed that

OP - did you keep that letter? Did you keep a copy of your reply? How long ago was it? can you post copies of the stuff with none of your personal details showing or ref numbers

when was / is court summons date?

It would still be possible to write back again to train company asking for this to be settled and the court case be withdrawn I would think.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Apr 2023 ==

ah thanks - missed that

OP - did you keep that letter? Did you keep a copy of your reply? How long ago was it? can you post copies of the stuff with none of your personal details showing or ref numbers

when was / is court summons date?

It would still be possible to write back again to train company asking for this to be settled and the court case be withdrawn I would think.

I haven’t got the letter or keep a copy of my reply as this was I think in January.

the court summons date is in may 17th

 

[WesternLancer]

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Apr 2023 ==


1. Yes, I mean 2022.

2. Yes, I received two letters, one to identify me and two about the court summons.

3. Yes, I have them a false address but when he found out about my real name I gave them my real address too.

4. Yes.

5. That’s a good idea. No I haven’t been in touch with them.

To get a out of court settlement would be good as I don’t want to go to court and to get a criminal record.

Thank you.

OK - a little time off the court date, so time for you to engage with them about it - so I think the next thing for you to do is to start drafting an apology letter to the Railway company to try and get the out of court settlement. Have a go at drafting that and post up your draft so people can help you get it as good as possible.

Obv it's made harder by the fact that the false details are specified on the summons, but that can be dealt with in your apology. BTW you are writing to the railway, not the court.

Have a look at the sort of advice @Hadders often posts in threads on the sort of content to include.

Pause a bit whilst other people see the thread and they may also have suggestions for you to factor in. Also get in touch with Uni/SU welfare ppl ASAP to see what help they can give (eg some can put you in touch with free legal advisor maybe, which would probably help if they do).

 

[Tajim02]

Is this clear for you guys? when I reply it get jumbled up

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Apr 2023 ==

OK - a little time off the court date, so time for you to engage with them about it - so I think the next thing for you to do is to start drafting an apology letter to the Railway company to try and get the out of court settlement. Have a go at drafting that and post up your draft so people can help you get it as good as possible.

Obv it's made harder by the fact that the false details are specified on the summons, but that can be dealt with in your apology. BTW you are writing to the railway, not the court.

Have a look at the sort of advice @Hadders often posts in threads on the sort of content to include.

Pause a bit whilst other people see the thread and they may also have suggestions for you to factor in. Also get in touch with Uni/SU welfare ppl ASAP to see what help they can give (eg some can put you in touch with free legal advisor maybe, which would probably help if they do).

Okay I will do this. Thank you so much. I’ll update you.

 

[30907]

To help me (and others)get my head around this: what ticket did you have from Bromley S (and to where?), and what time of day/night did you leave Beckenham Hill?

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

I fear this is going to be a difficult one to get out of because in addition to travelling without a ticket you gave false details. There then appears to be an escalation s the police got involved - were they already at the station or did they get called to attend?

I suggest writing a short concise letter to Southeastern asking if they will reconsider their decision to prosecute. You might want to include the following points in the letter:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Feel free to post a draft of the letter in this thread and forum members will be happy to proof read it for you. You need to get the letter sent as quickly as possible, although the court hearing is a month away there are two Bank Holidays in the coming weeks which effectively shorten the time. If Southeastern decline to settle out of court then you might want to consider engaging the services of a solicitor to see if they can obtain one, the Student Union at your university might have contacts that can assist with this.

 

[Tajim02]

To help me (and others)get my head around this: what ticket did you have from Bromley S (and to where?), and what time of day/night did you leave Beckenham Hill?

Hi, so I had a single ticket from Bromley south to Canterbury east station. I left Beckenham hill around 5:40pm.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Apr 2023 ==

Welcome to the forum!

I fear this is going to be a difficult one to get out of because in addition to travelling without a ticket you gave false details. There then appears to be an escalation s the police got involved - were they already at the station or did they get called to attend?

I suggest writing a short concise letter to Southeastern asking if they will reconsider their decision to prosecute. You might want to include the following points in the letter:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Feel free to post a draft of the letter in this thread and forum members will be happy to proof read it for you. You need to get the letter sent as quickly as possible, although the court hearing is a month away there are two Bank Holidays in the coming weeks which effectively shorten the time. If Southeastern decline to settle out of court then you might want to consider engaging the services of a solicitor to see if they can obtain one, the Student Union at your university might have contacts that can assist with this.

Hi, the police was already there and he was calming me down. He was saying basically I should let the inspector do his job. I will also write to them quickly as possible. Thank you so much for the advice

 

[furlong]

Oooh! So did they ask you pay the fare due when they caught you? And did you refuse to pay it on the spot?

 

[Tajim02]

Oooh! So did they ask you pay the fare due when they caught you? And did you refuse to pay it on the spot?

Nope, they didn’t ask me to pay for nothing.
I was told they’re were meant to fine me first.

 

[furlong]

Well on the face of it they've chosen a strange way to do this. The legislation begins "Having failed to pay his fare" and the obvious way for that to have happened is for them to have asked you and for you to have refused to pay. There could be some interesting legal arguments around this. Failure implies there was an earlier opportunity and obligation, and the challenge here is why they have chosen to use 3 (c) without also using something else. Where are they identifying that this failure occurred and what is the legal basis for that obligation? Normally I'd expect 3(c) to be supplementary to another charge that proves the breach of a legal obligation to pay your fare. The statement of facts suggests they may be trying to rely upon 3(a) without explicitly proving it!

Anyway, what this means is you should get proper legal advice about this one if it proceeds to court - don't rely on an internet forum - but also you should have a good chance of negotiating a settlement with the train company once they realise they've made things (needlessly?) complicated for themselves.

 

[Tajim02]

This is what I thought too. This is very frustrating. They read out my rights too.

 

[furlong]

(And just to add to that, they say that you failed to pay the fare due "at Bromley South" so they are telling the court that this obligation to pay occurred at Bromley South, not earlier at your original station.)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Apr 2023 ==

Did you offer to pay the fare due, but they wouldn't let you? Or was that never discussed?

 

[reb0118]

Did you offer to pay the fare due, but they wouldn't let you? Or was that never discussed?

I'm getting the impression that the OP was unable to pay anything when asked because he required funds to be transferred to his account from a third party.

Three fails. Failure to show a valid ticket, failure to purchase a valid ticket when asked, and failure to provide correct details.

 

[furlong]

Three fails. Failure to show a valid ticket, failure to purchase a valid ticket when asked, and failure to provide correct details.

Indeed that's how this would normally be done - but that isn't on the indictment.

 

[Tajim02]

(And just to add to that, they say that you failed to pay the fare due "at Bromley South" so they are telling the court that this obligation to pay occurred at Bromley South, not earlier at your original station.)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Apr 2023 ==

Did you offer to pay the fare due, but they wouldn't let you? Or was that never discussed?

They didn’t offer anything when he asked for my ticket and he realised I didn’t have it he asked me for my name and address.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Apr 2023 ==

I'm getting the impression that the OP was unable to pay anything when asked because he required funds to be transferred to his account from a third party.

Three fails. Failure to show a valid ticket, failure to purchase a valid ticket when asked, and failure to provide correct details.

I wasn’t asked to pay anything. My mum sent me the money when they asked me for my tickets. So if they asked me to pay for a fine or a ticket I would have done so.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Apr 2023 ==

Indeed that's how this would normally be done - but that isn't on the indictment.

This is what I was told that should have happened but this never did.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Apr 2023 ==

(And just to add to that, they say that you failed to pay the fare due "at Bromley South" so they are telling the court that this obligation to pay occurred at Bromley South, not earlier at your original station.)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Apr 2023 ==

Did you offer to pay the fare due, but they wouldn't let you? Or was that never discussed?

It was never discussed

 

[furlong]

Well on the face of it I think they might have got this one a bit confused (and perhaps realise this) but we haven't seen the interview and their position might be retrievable (with some amendments or hole filling) - you'd need to take professional legal advice if you did want to see if it's possible to challenge this.
The technical line of argument I'm wondering about (if it is true) is roughly "At Bromley South I did not fail to pay the fare due for the journey made as alleged. For there to be such a failure at Bromley South, Southeastern would first need to identify the legal obligation and opportunity available to me to pay there which I missed, which they have not done. Southeastern did not actually provide me with such an opportunity at Bromley South prior to asking for my details even though I made clear to them (did you?) that I was willing to pay and had funds available. Consequently the stated obligation to provide the correct name and address does not arise." There's also the matter of how giving a false name or address (corrected shortly afterwards) can lead to a demand to pay a fare in compensation. (An unpaid fare is not a consequence of an offence of giving the wrong name or address.) But again, don't take my advice though on this - ask a professional.

But anyway, you asked about out-of-court settlements and we know Southeastern does sometimes agree to these, and we can see they seem to have gone about this case in an odd way - why are you not being prosecuted for evading your fare which they claim you admitted? - but you could still follow the normal approach of apology, a promise never to do it again, and an offer to pay the fare and their costs (which should be no higher than what you can see in the statement of facts as they won't have incurred all those yet).

 

[blakey1152]

Because the wording on the screenshot for the summons says that they are claiming for the fare and a "contribution of £135" towards the prosecution costs, this says to me that they are most certainly open to an out of court settlement - as if someone asked me for a contribution towards something then it's not the full amount and that it will cost them more to continue with this.
As others have mentioned, an apology letter and offer to pay the costs around what they have put in their statement and providing its a first offence there is a very reasonable chance they'll take your offer and it will all be sorted.
Just don't do it again!

 

[Hadders]

Because the wording on the screenshot for the summons says that they are claiming for the fare and a "contribution of £135" towards the prosecution costs, this says to me that they are most certainly open to an out of court settlement - as if someone asked me for a contribution towards something then it's not the full amount and that it will cost them more to continue with this.
As others have mentioned, an apology letter and offer to pay the costs around what they have put in their statement and providing its a first offence there is a very reasonable chance they'll take your offer and it will all be sorted.
Just don't do it again!

That is just the standard wording on the court summons. What it means is that if convicted by the court you will have a fine imposed (which is the punishment and is given to the Government), Southeastern have applied for the outstanding fare plus a contribuition towards their costs (which would be paid to them). 40% is also added to the fine as a victim surcharge.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Just to pick up on one point from the original post: although in the first place the railway warned that this could end in going to prison, that won’t happen. Although the letter of the law allows people to be sent to prison, everything else says that you can’t be. In particular, I understand that magistrates have to follow ‘sentencing guidelines’ - and those tell the magistrates to deal with this sort of thing with a fine,

 

[30907]

Hi, so I had a single ticket from Bromley south to Canterbury east station. I left Beckenham hill at 5.40pm.

Thanks - I presume that you had an Advance ticket which only allows you to use a certain train?

For the future, if Beckenham Hill is the station you are nearest, it costs at most 45p more (with Railcard discount, I assume you have one) to book your ticket from there, and staff at Bromley South should allow you to start there if you need to though technically you aren’t supposed to.

 

[WesternLancer]

I think the priority here is for the OP to get drafting a letter to South Eastern aiming to settle out of court so the matter gets resolved before then. South Eastern have form on these threads for agreeing to settlements so I think there is a realistic chance.

Issues about what is written on the summons are all very well, but if the OP can't get free legal advice from their student union then they will need to be paying a solicitor to help argue that for them at court and frankly it does not sound like they have the spare money to do that (OP from other cases I suspect solicitors may charge from £500 to £900 for that but you could easily ring a few and ask for quotes). But with luck it can be avoided at court.

Another lesson from this in my view is a point I regularly make to relatives I have under the age of c25 which is that despite whatever your preferred method of payment is for any goods and services, keep about £20 in cash on you at all times for use in emergencies when for whatever reason you go more than about 500m from your own home! Being totally reliant on tech based payment solutions and or finding the need to get people to transfer money to you at short notice is very much best avoided in my view. With luck you may never use the bank notes, but having them is good insurance. I know not always easy when money is tight but it would have saved a lot of problems here, and ultimately a lot more money I suspect.