southeastern prosecution

[achtungbaby1]

hi basically i’ve been having an ongoing issue with southeastern as i travel out to kent for uni and found it very hard to afford tickets, so i would buy some half the way. i ended up getting my 3 strikes and then got caught again. i received a letter saying the matter would be provisionally authorised for prosecution but as a student i don’t make a lot of money to be able to afford court fees etc so i’m asking for help regarding what to do next, the best way to get an out of court settlement.

 

[Wethebest838]

When you say 3 strikes, you have been caught 3 times already?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Welcome to the forum.

@Hadders has some very good advice on how to respond to letters from the railway about this sort of thing: for example this from https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ecution-expired-railcard.227585/#post-5511059

You are likely to receive a letter from the train company (or an investigation company acting on their behalf) which will probably take a few weeks to arrive saying that they have received a report, are considering prosecuting you and asking for your version of events. It is important that you engage with and reply to this letter. You might want to include the following in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Make sure your reply is short and concise, don't give a sob story - they've heard it all before. Most train companies are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) for people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. There is no guarantee of this and the train company would be well within their rights to prosecute you in the magistrates court.

If you are offered a settlement the amount varies depending on the train company and circumstances but tend to be a few hundred pounds plus the outstanding fare. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.

But it's important for your apology and commitment not to do it again to be sincere. I may be reading rather too much into what you have told us, but I understand your position to be that
- on a number of occasions you did not pay your full fare
- on a number of occasions you were caught
- the railway now have suggested that they want to take action
- you now wish to agree an out of court settlement

If I have understood your position correctly, then my view is that the railway will see this as persistent and deliberate fare evasion, which is not suitable for dealing with out of court: they may insist that you go to court and be prosecuted. And if I have understood the facts correctly, you will be found guilty and you will be fined. So it may well be that your attempts to get an out of court settlement won't succeed. You need to prepare yourself for that being a possible outcome.

 

[achtungbaby1]

When you say 3 strikes, you have been caught 3 times already?

southeastern operate a 3 strike policy where if you get 3 chances to get a fine before it’s taken further. each time i paid those fines quickly

 

[swt_passenger]

southeastern operate a 3 strike policy where if you get 3 chances to get a fine before it’s taken further. each time i paid those fines quickly

Do you actually mean you’ve paid 3 penalty fares in the past?

 

[achtungbaby1]

Do you actually mean you’ve paid 3 penalty fares in the past?

yes

 

[Wethebest838]

southeastern operate a 3 strike policy where if you get 3 chances to get a fine before it’s taken further. each time i paid those fines quickly

Yeah I don’t mean to be a bearer of bad news but I think you are out of luck for an out of court settlement. They won’t tolerate it. If you can’t afford the first time then you do it again and again and you still pay the fines then it won’t go down well with southeastern.

 

[skyhigh]

southeastern operate a 3 strike policy where if you get 3 chances to get a fine before it’s taken further. each time i paid those fines quickly

Generally an out-of-court settlement is only offered where the offender has shown they've learnt their lesson and it won't happen again. If you've been caught and given a penalty fare 3 times already for the same thing, you've pretty clearly demonstrated you won't learn. I'd suggest chances of a settlement are pretty low, though you can still ask.

What are they looking to charge you with? Is it just a byelaw offence or a more serious prosecution under the Regulation of Railways Act? Given your record I don't think they'd have a hard time proving you were intending to evade paying the correct fare, so might decide to take the more serious route forward to try and teach you a lesson.

 

[AlterEgo]

I will be very surprised if SE don't prosecute for such obvious mickey-taking and wanton theft of fares.

 

[gray1404]

You need to reply to the latter you have received. Keep it simple. I am assuming that the letter only refers to the last time you were stopped not the previous occasions so let's just focus on what the letter talks about.

And you reply you should apologise to South Eastern, explain to them that you understand the seriousness of this and that you will ensure that all future train travel will be with a valid ticket, tell them that you want to pay the third you for your journey plus there costs involved in dealing with the matter and would they consider an out of court settlement.

That is literally or you can do at the moment so I would make your letter short and to the point and send it off to them as soon as possible and I hope for the best.

Have you learnt your lesson now though or will it actually take ending up in court for you to finally learn it? I asked that question because if you're going to say the above in your letter then I trust it will be truthful.

 

[skyhigh]

Also worth noting that if you buy your tickets via an app such as theirs or Trainline it's trivially easy for them to see how many short fares you've bought, so if you tell them you bought "some half way" but it turns out that 'some' is 'all' then they won't view that kindly. To be honest, if you've been caught 4 times but only did it occasionally you've been quite unlucky...

 

[mikeg]

We also need to clarify were they definitely penalty fares (issued there and then) by south eastern? Or has the op already settled out of court three times ? (IE thru the post)?

If the former the op possibly has a marginally higher chance of achieving a settlement but either way they've been very reasonable. If the latter theres just about no chance as we've already been there and done that and the op hasn't learnt.

I also see this as one of the cases with a lower chance of a settlement being achieved. Thats not to say don't try, but start saving now for any court fine. Engage with the system too, you'll have your low income taken into account when the fine is calculated but you'll still have a much lighter wallet. Do you know what legislation they're planning to use? This is important from a criminal records view. Also what are you reading at uni? Some careers such as law could be affected, others it may not make a difference, especially if the offence is spent

 

[gray1404]

If this case does go to court, it is important that the court is aware what low-income the defendant is on. Otherwise they will receive a fine based on average earnings which will be higher.

 

[Egg Centric]

Out of interest did they explain it was a three strike policy on any of the previous strikes? We have had other south eastern “customers” and I don’t recall them mentioning anything about this policy

 

[island]

I also agree with those above who say that an out of court settlement is unlikely for someone who has shown they have no intention of learning their lesson and clearly intend to practice fraud on the train company by not paying the correct fare.

Unlikely does not mean impossible though, and my very strong advice to the OP is to start saving and getting any money together that they can – be prepared to sell excess household possessions etc. – because whether they end up paying an out of court settlement or a court fine, this is going to be costly.

It goes without saying that they should desist from travelling without the correct ticket going forward.

 

[swt_passenger]

We also need to clarify were they definitely penalty fares (issued there and then) by south eastern? Or has the op already settled out of court three times ? (IE thru the post)?

I asked and it was answered yes, in posts 6/7.

 

[mikeg]

I asked and it was answered yes, in posts 6/7.

Fair enough. I just wanted unlta clarity as to what the 'fines' were I guess. I also hadn't heard of the southeastern three strikes policy

 

[swt_passenger]

Fair enough. I just wanted unlta clarity as to what the 'fines' were I guess. I also hadn't heard of the southeastern three strikes policy

I hadn’t heard of a 3 strikes policy either, from other replies not many people have…

 

[Gloster]

Perhaps because there is sometimes talk of a Three Strikes policy in various situations, although this seems to be more of a US thing (although sometimes imitated or quoted over here), but the OP has for some reason come to believe that it applies in this case. Anyway, my understanding is that in a Three Strikes policy they let you off lightly on the first two occasions, but will hit you with the lot on the third.

 

[furlong]

An out of court settlement wouldn't surprise me if it entailed a believable, agreed and evidenced estimate covering all the fares avoided over the relevant period of time. (This might exceed what the company could obtain in an adversarial prosecution process focussing on a single instance where little or nothing might be admitted.)

 

[skyhigh]

I hadn’t heard of a 3 strikes policy either, from other replies not many people have…

Personally my guess is what happened is that the OP's name has been put into the app used by revenue inspectors to complete report/penalty fare forms - as part of the verification process, it searches for and shows previous records (such as what was issued - travel irregularity report, penalty fare etc - grounds for issue, journey details) and gives the option if you want to proceed with a penalty fare or report instead. I suspect the revenue officer saw the 3 previous penalty fares issued for exactly the same reason, told the OP "because you've done this three times already I won't give you a penalty fare but instead report you for investigation" and they've taken that as there was a three strike rule.

If that guess is correct the penalty fares will be automatically linked with the new report so office staff will be immediately aware of the history when they review the report.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Feb 2022 ==

An out of court settlement wouldn't surprise me if it entailed a believable, agreed and evidenced estimate covering all the fares avoided over the relevant period of time. (This might exceed what the company could obtain in an adversarial prosecution process focussing on a single instance where little or nothing might be admitted.)

I'd agree that's probably the only likely way to get a settlement (in which case, start saving up). It wouldn't surprise me though if they chose to prosecute under RoRA and make an example.

 

[blakey1152]

Unfortunately, because you've been stopped and given a penalty fare on several occasions I don't think Southeastern will be particularly lenient.
You've mentioned that you travel out to Kent for university and have a low income, This says to me that although there are almost certainly cheaper ways of getting to University such as the bus there is no way you could board a bus without paying the correct fare, however, you can chance your arm and pay less or nothing at all and take the train.

They may well look at how often you go to university and how many tickets you've actually bought and ask you to pay the difference plus the various costs involved.

To have been stopped three times is a lot, you've either got to be very unlucky and got caught in quick succession or this has been happening over a long period of time - as I rarely see a revenue block on Southeastern.

But you never know, you may get them on a good day considering your circumstances and I hope it works out.

 

[Enthusiast]

If this case does go to court, it is important that the court is aware what low-income the defendant is on. Otherwise they will receive a fine based on average earnings which will be higher.

He must make sure he fills in one of these:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/688361/mc100-eng.pdf

The court will calculate his fine on a multiple of his weekly income. If it is less than £120pw they are unlikely to use a figure below that as a basis. That is the figure used for those on minimal State benefits.

 

[Trackman]

So you got caught the first time and then decided to do it again, then do it again and then do it again? You've obviously not learnt the first, second or third time.

An analogy would be like sticking your fingers in an open plug socket three times.

To have been stopped three times is a lot, you've either got to be very unlucky and got caught in quick succession ...

I don't think being caught of fare evasion would be 'unlucky' but I know what you are thinking.
--
Back to the original poster's question:
It says 'provisionally authorised for prosecution'
Do you have to write back ..?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Back to the original poster's question:
It says 'provisionally authorised for prosecution'
Do you have to write back ..?

(1) It’s the only opportunity the OP has to make their point before the railway make a firm decision on whether or not to prosecute. So the OP isn’t obliged to engage with the process, but it’s hard to see how they could benefit from not doing so.
(2) This is also the standard wording of the first letter after being caught: it’s actually a little misleading in that it suggests that prosecution is the inevitable (or at least overwhelmingly likely) end point of the process, whereas we do hear of a lot of cases which actually end in an out of court settlement (and some which end with no action at all). But the consensus here (which I share - see post #3) is that this case will go to court, so I don’t think the OP has misinterpreted what it means for them.

 

[Grvrdvicdr]

Asked one of my se revenue buddies. Just to clear up the ‘Three Strike Policy” with SE. If someone gets 2 penalty fares within 12 months and they get caught again within the same 12 months then they get reported under byelaw 18.

 

[30907]

Asked one of my se revenue buddies. Just to clear up the ‘Three Strike Policy” with SE. If someone gets 2 penalty fares within 12 months and they get caught again within the same 12 months then they get reported under byelaw 18.

....which, if prosecuted, is a non-recordable offence, so will only hit the OP in the pocket (in nearly all circumstances).
Very useful clarification, thanks.