Southeastern problems post timetable change

[ScotGG]

Since major timetable changes in early December the Southeastern network has been a shocker.

Many MPs and passengers unhappy and PPM on the floor.

I've been hearing some interesting word too from the inside that it possibly just won't ever work. For example the trains that swing back at Slade Green now seem to be losing time after being switched from sidcup to bexleyheath lines. Whether true, it's pretty bad almost every day.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Since major timetable changes in early December the Southeastern network has been a shocker.

Many MPs and passengers unhappy and PPM on the floor.

I've been hearing some interesting word too from the inside that it possibly just won't ever work. For example the trains that swing back at Slade Green now seem to be losing time after being switched from sidcup to bexleyheath lines. Whether true, it's pretty bad almost every day.

It's not the timetable that's the problem though. Off Peak It's performing really well.

 

[43066]

Since major timetable changes in early December the Southeastern network has been a shocker.

Many MPs and passengers unhappy and PPM on the floor.

I've been hearing some interesting word too from the inside that it possibly just won't ever work. For example the trains that swing back at Slade Green now seem to be losing time after being switched from sidcup to bexleyheath lines. Whether true, it's pretty bad almost every day.

Any evidence to back this up?

I use their metro network virtually every day and it seems fine to me, in fact it’s very reliable. Their latest PPM figure is 98.4%. Metro is 99.1%.

 

[PGAT]

I don’t see any reason why the PPM would decrease? The entire point of the timetable was to remove conflicting points at Lewisham

 

[Bald Rick]

Infrastructure performance for the last few months has been nothing short of appalling.

 

[43066]

Infrastructure performance for the last few months has been nothing short of appalling.

I know they had issues when it was cold before Xmas, and there have been recurrent signalling problems in CST/London Bridge area. Anything else?

 

[Gorlash1886]

Just the usual esr's on the mainline route slowing them down and then conflicting with the metro. Main issue I've noticed thus far is serious over crowding during peak times, especially on the Sidcup and Hayes line via Lewisham.

 

[Horizon22]

I know they had issues when it was cold before Xmas, and there have been recurrent signalling problems in CST/London Bridge area. Anything else?

Almost daily issues it seems with power supply issues, flooding, points failures and as you mentioned, recurring signalling problems towards the London Terminals. Not much around Lewisham though which makes a change after all those engineering works! Take a look at the twitter to see the spate of recent incidents.

It's been so bad they've sent an apology tweet: https://twitter.com/Se_Railway/status/1617597056649920527/photo/1

We’re sorry that our services have been disrupted, overcrowded or unreliable over the past two weeks. You can claim Delay Repay compensation here: https://southeasternrailway.co.uk/help-and-contact/help/delay-repay-compensation

 

[WizCastro197]

Any evidence to back this up?

Although not many, I presume that mat have been a slight exaggeration, but there was a debate with 2 MPs from SE London, who weren't too happy about the changes. I can't find the debate itself, but I have bee able to retrieve the transcript, if you want to look.

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2022-12-06/debates/11B2B2CD-2C65-46D7-8EF1-4A2EAEB3F6B7/SoutheasternRailwayTimetableChanges

 

[BluePenguin]

Ah, coincidentally just the thread for me.

Today was my sisters masters graduation. This morning at Walmer it was announced our train was delayed 16 minutes. We drove to Folkestone West (because car park is bigger than Dover) to get the Charing Cross train not expecting it to be held at Dover.

Surprise surprise the SAME train to St Pancras we could have got on initially arrived, and the train to Charing Cross not long after. It was announced at Ashford that we would run non stop to Paddock Wood because of the delay. We zoomed past my sister waiting to get on at Staplehurst.Then we terminated at London Bridge and had to take another to Waterloo East

All in all a typical lousy journey on Southeastern

 

[Horizon22]

Ah, coincidentally just the tread for me.

Today was my sisters masters graduation. This morning at Walmer it was announced our train was delayed 16 minutes. We drove to Folkestone West (because car park is bigger than Dover) to get the Charing Cross train not expecting it to be held at Dover.

Surprise surprise the SAME train St Pancras we could have got on initially arrived and the train to Charing Cross not long after. It was announced at Ashford that we would run non stop to Paddock Wood because of the delay. We zoomed past my sister waiting to get on at Staplehurst.Then we terminated at London Bridge and had to take another to Waterloo East

All in all a typical lousy journey on Southeastern

Odd to run fast and also terminate at London Bridge which isn't the most sensible decision, unless it was seriously (30+ late). At the very least, it is often a short change across the platform.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Ah, coincidentally just the tread for me.

Today was my sisters masters graduation. This morning at Walmer it was announced our train was delayed 16 minutes. We drove to Folkestone West (because car park is bigger than Dover) to get the Charing Cross train not expecting it to be held at Dover.

Surprise surprise the SAME train St Pancras we could have got on initially arrived and the train to Charing Cross not long after. It was announced at Ashford that we would run non stop to Paddock Wood because of the delay. We zoomed past my sister waiting to get on at Staplehurst.Then we terminated at London Bridge and had to take another to Waterloo East

All in all a typical lousy journey on Southeastern

PPM always comes first on the railway despite they tell us "We are putting the Passenger First"

 

[Horizon22]

PPM always comes first on the railway despite they tell us "We are putting the Passenger First"

PPM is ultimately good for the passenger though if you're taking an overview of the whole service. It's not a simplistic picture. Plus that example is a PPM failure anyway, as is the return (by starting at London Bridge).

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

PPM is ultimately good for the passenger though if you're taking an overview of the whole service. It's not a simplistic picture.

Thing is im surmising our poster was on 2W30 1000 Dover P to CX which left 20L wastes nearly 3m at Ashford no doubt telling driver to run fast but ends up still 16L at L.Bdge although was only 11L passing Tonbridge. So no doubt caught up with something so might as well have at least called at all stations upto Tonbridge.

However, I see this time and time again with fast running where it doesn't gain much back and just leaves loads of disgruntled passengers on platforms.

Leaving passengers waiting for half an hour or more for the sake of PPM will peeve off people a lot more than being a few minutes late occasionally.

 

[BluePenguin]

Odd to run fast and also terminate at London Bridge which isn't the most sensible decision, unless it was seriously (30+ late). At the very least, it is often a short change across the platform.

I thought that, considering it wasn’t going back to Dover until 12:08 it could easily have carried on to Charing Cross at 11:45 or so

 

[Horizon22]

Thing is im surmising our poster was on 2W30 1000 Dover P to CX which left 20L wastes nearly 3m at Ashford no doubt telling driver to run fast but ends up still 16L at L.Bdge although was only 11L passing Tonbridge. So no doubt caught up with something so might as well have at least called at all stations upto Tonbridge.

However, I see this time and time again with fast running where it doesn't gain much back and just leaves loads of disgruntled passengers on platforms.

Leaving passengers waiting for half an hour or more for the sake of PPM will peeve off people a lot more than being a few minutes late occasionally.

Depends if it's done in a methodical and planned manner with good awareness of the overall impact. In this instance, I'd suggest just terminating/restarting at London Bridge was probably the easiest option. Probably those 3 minutes were also advising passengers to alight for intermediate stops. Controllers often try their best to recovery the service, but its never perfect.

 

[BluePenguin]

Depends if it's done in a methodical and planned manner with good awareness of the overall impact. In this instance, I'd suggest just terminating/restarting at London Bridge was probably the easiest option. Probably those 3 minutes were also advising passengers to alight for intermediate stops. Controllers often try their best to recovery the service, but its never perfect.

We had already left Sevenoaks by this point so there weren’t any more before London Bridge. Although it was far better to terminate there than say Sevenoaks because of the connections

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Depends if it's done in a methodical and planned manner with good awareness of the overall impact. In this instance, I'd suggest just terminating/restarting at London Bridge was probably the easiest option. Probably those 3 minutes were also advising passengers to alight for intermediate stops. Controllers often try their best to recovery the service, but its never perfect.

The point is it could have made the intermediate calls and avoided inconveniencing those passengers and terminated at L.Bdge. Given time of day they were likely passengers turning up and buying a ticket only to find they've got to wait an extra 30mins and how many will not bother to use the train again as a result. The controllers react to route contingency plans but too many of them are flawed and its not there fault but overall the industry simply can't afford to drive people away.

 

[Stephen42]

Thing is im surmising our poster was on 2W30 1000 Dover P to CX which left 20L wastes nearly 3m at Ashford no doubt telling driver to run fast but ends up still 16L at L.Bdge although was only 11L passing Tonbridge. So no doubt caught up with something so might as well have at least called at all stations upto Tonbridge.

However, I see this time and time again with fast running where it doesn't gain much back and just leaves loads of disgruntled passengers on platforms.

Leaving passengers waiting for half an hour or more for the sake of PPM will peeve off people a lot more than being a few minutes late occasionally.

From looking at realtimetrains, if it wasn't run fast then it would arrive Sevenoaks roughly the same time as the stopper (2F32) leaves. If you delay the stopper, that would delay the subsequent stopper arrival and probably the Hastings (1H28) behind. Once the delayed stopper gets to Orpington late it delays the Ramsgate to Charing Cross (2W32) and the opposite direction (2R30) immediately after. If you instead let the stopper go first the Dover Priory train gets even later, a small delay to 2W32 and the 12:08ish arrival at London Bridge is the same time the train is meant to leave London Bridge in the opposite direction delaying that trip as well.

Whether those subsequent delays would bubble up further or would resolve themselves I don't know. The following train half an hour later (2W32) called at all stations missed so the delay to stations skipped was ten minutes. To me at least it seems a reasonable enough decision to both skip and turn back early in this case.

 

[Bald Rick]

I thought that, considering it wasn’t going back to Dover until 12:08 it could easily have carried on to Charing Cross at 11:45 or so

Depends on the drivers diagram. If it was their break at Charing Cross, it would have been late out.

 

[Horizon22]

We had already left Sevenoaks by this point so there weren’t any more before London Bridge. Although it was far better to terminate there than say Sevenoaks because of the connections

Terminating London Bridge saves about 30 minutes (10 minutes x2 to Charing Cross + the turn around time). Sevenoaks would be unecessary.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Terminating London Bridge saves about 30 minutes (10 minutes x2 to Charing Cross + the turn around time). Sevenoaks would be unecessary.

Err you need a turn round time at London Bridge too.

 

[Horizon22]

Err you need a turn round time at London Bridge too.

Yeah but that could be minimal, compared to the actual booked time at Charing Cross (although they are only 10 minutes in the new timetable).

 

[350401]

I use the Bromley North / Grove Park to London Bridge train nearly daily; and today was the first day commuting in 2 weeks that I didn’t have delays. I’ve now got into the habit of always checking the trains before I leave the flat in case it’s messed up. Anecdotally, the service definitely seems a lot less reliable than before the timetable change. A lot of delays are blamed on signal problems - which given the line was shut a couple of summers ago for 10 days to replace the signalling system does seem odd. I thought the Orpington to London Bridge line had pretty modern digital signalling now?

 

[brad465]

A lot of delays are blamed on signal problems - which given the line was shut a couple of summers ago for 10 days to replace the signalling system does seem odd. I thought the Orpington to London Bridge line had pretty modern digital signalling now?

It has modern LED signalling controlled from Three Bridges, I'm pretty sure digital signalling hasn't been widely rolled out yet.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Yeah but that could be minimal, compared to the actual booked time at Charing Cross (although they are only 10 minutes in the new timetable).

So why would it need the booked time at Charing Cross but not at London Bridge?

 

[BluePenguin]

So why would it need the booked time at Charing Cross but not at London Bridge?

That is also what I was thinking

 

[zwk500]

It has modern LED signalling controlled from Three Bridges, I'm pretty sure digital signalling hasn't been widely rolled out yet.

It depends what you mean by 'digital signalling'. Three Bridges ROC is signalled with a computerised Interlocking that is very much digital in the sense of being computer code-controlled rather than the Relay-based interlocking of the old installation, but powering fixed assets. What NR usually means is what it calls the 'digital railway' using ETCS, with in-cab signalling etc. This is not in place except for the Thameslink lines between London Bridge and St Pancras.

 

[ComUtoR]

2W30 arrived at London Bridge 1154 (+16) and was booked on the return service (2R32) at 1208. Therefore there was 14 minutes to "change ends"

If the service was sent to Charing Cross and maintained the +16 it would have arrived at 1205. Then you would need to add the Drivers change end time to that (call that 7 minutes). Therefore the 2R32 service (should everything still remain equal) would have departed at 1212 which would mean the 2R32 service is then +13 late.

 

[Horizon22]

So why would it need the booked time at Charing Cross but not at London Bridge?

Services may not always “need” their booked time, but are timetabled that way for a multitude of reasons. Trains at Charing Cross have anywhere between 8-25 minutes. Crew have minimum turn around times - dependent on stock length - and therefore this could be less than the booked time.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jan 2023 ==

2W30 arrived at London Bridge 1154 (+16) and was booked on the return service (2R32) at 1208. Therefore there was 14 minutes to "change ends"

If the service was sent to Charing Cross and maintained the +16 it would have arrived at 1205. Then you would need to add the Drivers change end time to that (call that 7 minutes). Therefore the 2R32 service (should everything still remain equal) would have departed at 1212 which would mean the 2R32 service is then +13 late.

The point is whether it could have run as booked and then terminated at London Bridge and still departed on time, as it made minimal time running fast from Ashford - Paddock Wood. I would suggest yes, but someone would need to take an in depth look at timings and the stopper from Sevenoaks especially or whether that could be held for a couple of minutes. It’s never an exact science