Southeastern potential prosecution notice

[efatty]

Good evening all,

I recently recieved a notice of potential prosecution after being caught short faring on my trainline app by an inspector. This is something I’ve been doing for over a year and was recently caught 30th January.

I deeply regret my actions and I wish I could go back in time and never do it. I would really like to settle out of court, this is my first infraction/fine/issue with southeastern. Please any sort of help will be appreciated, I am riddled with anxiety as I have a job working with young people and schools so cannot afford a criminal record. Please assist me in terms of writing a letter, what should I include. Also, am I able to respond via email refrencing my reference number and attached a scanned document as opposed to sending a letter, as I don’t have a printer and don’t want to hand write the letter.

 

[notmyrealname]

Hi, welcome to the forum.

Could you show us the paperwork you have please? That will help people to start advising you. Cover up your personal details and their reference number though before you post the image.

 

[John R]

If you’ve been doing this for a year then if you are lucky enough to be offered a settlement then it is likely to reflect the number of times SE reckon you’ve done it, and the cost of the tickets avoided.

So you either need to estimate how many times or better still trawl through your account and find out the exact number, and then use the Anytime single fare for each individual journey to work out what you might need to find at very short order (also add around £150 to cover their admin costs) to avoid prosecution.

If you let us know which stations you’ve travelled between we can help with that estimate.

 

[efatty]

Hi, welcome to the forum.

Could you show us the paperwork you have please? That will help people to start advising you. Cover up your personal details and their reference number though before you post the

If you’ve been doing this for a year then if you are lucky enough to be offered a settlement then it is likely to reflect the number of times SE reckon you’ve done it, and the cost of the tickets avoided.

So you either need to estimate how many times or better still trawl through your account and find out the exact number, and then use the Anytime single fare for each individual journey to work out what you might need to find at very short order (also add around £150 to cover their admin costs) to avoid prosecution.

If you let us know which stations you’ve travelled between we can help with that estimate.

Hiya, thank you so much for your response. I have calculated what I think it could be and have been putting some money aside to anticipate this, if I’m lucky enough to get an out of court settlement.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Feb 2025 ==

Hi, welcome to the forum.

Could you show us the paperwork you have please? That will help people to start advising you. Cover up your personal details and their reference number though before you post the image.

Please excuse the coffee stains my sibling spilt it on the letter. Am I able to send an email as opposed to posting?

 

[Titfield]

Yes you can reply by email but ensure you quote the reference number so that your email and case file can be matched.

If you post here your draft reply it can be checked by forum members before you send it.

If you use the search facility top right of the page you can search for suitable examples to base your reply on. The advice given by forum member @Hadders will be particularly useful.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

A suggest sending a short, concise reply that mentions the following points:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

The difficulty you've got is you've been doing this on an 'industrial scale' - many people would say that cases like this should end up in the Magistrates Court, and if they don't how serious should a case be to end up being prosecuted. That aside, although Southeastern are entitled to send the case to the Magistrates Court, the good news is that they are normally prepared to offer an out of court settlement in cases like this as long as you co-operate with them.

Ordinarily, the settlement is likely to cost the value of the fare avoided at the full Anytime rate with no credit given for the invalid tickets you did purchase. In addition you will need to may an admin fee, normally around £150. You will have to be in a position to pay the settlement in full within a few days of it being offered - payment in installments isn't normally allowed.

The difficulty you've got is what to do about the other occasions. The letter only asks you about the incident where you were caught, and fundamentelly you aren't required to incriminate yourself. Southeastern are highly likely to audit your Trainline purchase history which will reveal what you've been up to and they will then want to factor the cost of all the other journeys into the settlement figure. If you 'fess up' now there will be some certainty around the settlement. if you don't, you might get away with the other ocasions if they don't check your purchase history, but on the other hand a failure to be honest with them might mean they are less likely to offer a settlement if they do check.

It's fine to reply by email but do make sure to include your case reference number, name and address in the reply. If you post your draft reply in this thread forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

 

[efatty]

This is my proposed response, I would appreciate any feedback:
Dear Sir/Madam,

I am writing in response to the letter I received on the 31st of January regarding my fare-related offence at Gravesend station. I want to sincerely apologise for my actions and express my deep regret. I take full responsibility for my mistake and fully acknowledge that I did not meet my obligations as a passenger. I regret my poor judgment and understand the seriousness of this situation.

This experience has been a humbling one, and I have taken the time to reflect on my past travel habits. I now fully recognise the importance of always ensuring I have the correct and valid ticket for every journey. Since this incident, I have made sure to follow the correct procedures and can assure you that this will not happen again.

I appreciate the impact that fare evasion has on Southeastern Railway and regret any inconvenience my actions may have caused. I would be extremely grateful for the opportunity to settle this matter without the need for court proceedings. I am prepared to cover any outstanding fares, as well as any reasonable administrative costs incurred in addressing this case. If a settlement is possible, please let me know how I can proceed with making the necessary payments.

Once again, I sincerely apologise and hope that my willingness to take responsibility and make amends will be taken into consideration. I appreciate your time in reviewing my response and look forward to your guidance on resolving this matter amicably.

 

[John R]

Reading this it seems to have every AI apology in it (except for “gravity of the situation”), but nowhere do you actually spell out what you have done.

As an example, you have “reflected on your past travel habits”. What does this mean? Don’t expect the investigator to read between the lines, if you want to say you’ve done it before then do so, and if not don’t say it.

Another example, instead of “following the correct procedures” just say “buy the correct ticket for my journey”.

I wouldn’t suggest that you are looking for an amicable resolution either. It’s not an equal negotiation here, they have every right to prosecute you.

 

[efatty]

Reading this it seems to have every AI apology in it (except for “gravity of the situation”), but nowhere do you actually spell out what you have done.

As an example, you have “reflected on your past travel habits”. What does this mean? Don’t expect the investigator to read between the lines, if you want to say you’ve done it before then do so, and if not don’t say it.

Another example, instead of “following the correct procedures” just say “buy the correct ticket for my journey”.

I wouldn’t suggest that you are looking for an amicable resolution either. It’s not an equal negotiation here, they have every right to prosecute you.

Okay thanks for your feedback, I’ve never wrote a letter like this before so not too sure what my wording should be like. How would you word asking for an out of court settlement, I’m finding this difficult to draft

 

[Hadders]

I agree with @JohnR - the letter needs some rewording.

Start it with Dear Mr Willis - that's the person who sent the letter to you.

You need to say what you did - something like I made an error of judgement in buying tickets that did not cover my whole journey.
Reflecting on past travel habits - if you're going to 'fess up' then you need to be more direct and say something like 'I have researched my online ticket purchasing account and believe that between ddmmyy and ddmmyy I have avoided paying the correct fare on xx occasions'.
When you ask for a settlement you should say something like I wondered if it would be possible to resolve this issue without having to go to court. I am prepared to pay the cost of the fares avoided and you administrative costs in dealing with this case'.

End the letter 'Yours sincerely'

 

[efatty]

I agree with @JohnR - the letter needs some rewording.

Start it with Dear Mr Willis - that's the person who sent the letter to you.

You need to say what you did - something like I made an error of judgement in buying tickets that did not cover my whole journey.
Reflecting on past travel habits - if you're going to 'fess up' then you need to be more direct and say something like 'I have researched my online ticket purchasing account and believe that between ddmmyy and ddmmyy I have avoided paying the correct fare on xx occasions'.
When you ask for a settlement you should say something like I wondered if it would be possible to resolve this issue without having to go to court. I am prepared to pay the cost of the fares avoided and you administrative costs in dealing with this case'.

End the letter 'Yours sincerely'

Thank you so much, I really appreciate it

 

[efatty]

I agree with @JohnR - the letter needs some rewording.

Start it with Dear Mr Willis - that's the person who sent the letter to you.

You need to say what you did - something like I made an error of judgement in buying tickets that did not cover my whole journey.
Reflecting on past travel habits - if you're going to 'fess up' then you need to be more direct and say something like 'I have researched my online ticket purchasing account and believe that between ddmmyy and ddmmyy I have avoided paying the correct fare on xx occasions'.
When you ask for a settlement you should say something like I wondered if it would be possible to resolve this issue without having to go to court. I am prepared to pay the cost of the fares avoided and you administrative costs in dealing with this case'.

End the letter 'Yours sincerely'

The only issue is I’m not too sure when I have actually done it, as I have only done this when I have to travel to work and I don’t have to be in the office every week so it’s maybe 1/2 times every week or so but as I’m not in the office consistently it’s difficult to say when I have done this

 

[30907]

The only issue is I’m not too sure when I have actually done it, as I have only done this when I have to travel to work and I don’t have to be in the office every week so it’s maybe 1/2 times every week or so but as I’m not in the office consistently it’s difficult to say when I have done this

If you have never purchased online, or used a credit card, then you will have to make a best guess. Otherwise, you can access the information.

 

[Hadders]

The only issue is I’m not too sure when I have actually done it, as I have only done this when I have to travel to work and I don’t have to be in the office every week so it’s maybe 1/2 times every week or so but as I’m not in the office consistently it’s difficult to say when I have done this

You shoudl be able to access your ticket purchase history via your online account. You might have to sign-on through the website rather than the app to see the full details.

 

[AlterEgo]

Southeastern haven't asked the OP about past offending. Why are we advising them to incriminate themselves?

 

[Titfield]

Post #10 stated “if you are going to fess up….” Which itself was responding to the OP stating they had been evading the correct fare for a year and had made a reference to this in their draft response. As the TOC is likely to research the history isn’t it advisable to be upfront at the outset? If the OP doesn’t address this in their letter then the TOC may wonder why this hasn’t been addressed and move to prosecute.

 

[John R]

Southeastern haven't asked the OP about past offending. Why are we advising them to incriminate themselves?

I don’t think @Hadders or I have advised the OP to do that. But their draft strongly hinted at it, and so all we are saying is that if they do wish to do so then it needs to be more explicit.

 

[AlterEgo]

As the TOC is likely to research the history isn’t it advisable to be upfront at the outset?

No! Don't incriminate yourself and do their work for them.

Southeastern often don't bother researching ticket history.

 

[Hadders]

Southeastern haven't asked the OP about past offending. Why are we advising them to incriminate themselves?

The OP tells us in their ipening post that they have been short faring for over a year. Southeastern are one of the TOCs who routinely check online ticket purchase history so it will be very easy for them to discover what's been going on.

My original advice was:

The difficulty you've got is what to do about the other occasions. The letter only asks you about the incident where you were caught, and fundamentelly you aren't required to incriminate yourself. Southeastern are highly likely to audit your Trainline purchase history which will reveal what you've been up to and they will then want to factor the cost of all the other journeys into the settlement figure. If you 'fess up' now there will be some certainty around the settlement. if you don't, you might get away with the other ocasions if they don't check your purchase history, but on the other hand a failure to be honest with them might mean they are less likely to offer a settlement if they do check.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Feb 2025 ==

Southeastern often don't bother researching ticket history.

I disagree. GTR often don't check (although even they seem to be checking more frequently). In my experience Southeastern often do check.

 

[AlterEgo]

The OP tells us in their ipening post that they have been short faring for over a year. Southeastern are one of the TOCs who routinely check online ticket purchase history so it will be very easy for them to discover what's been going on.

Where train companies do check, they often inform the person in the opening letter. They haven't done this.

The OP should not attempt to answer questions which haven't been asked. They have merely been asked for "comments about the incident" (the one on 30 January 2025 as referenced in the letter).

Under no circumstances should they voluntarily incriminate themselves. If they receive subsequent correspondence from the company saying "oh we saw you did this before too, can you tell us about this" then they may be advised to comment on that. Given that Southeastern settle basically every time, even when dealing with the most blatant liars, cheats and people who try to give false details, we can safely say it is not yet in the OP's interest to simply spill the beans about numerous offences they have not even been asked about.

 

[Hadders]

I think it's important that we point out the pros and cons of different approaches to people when giving advice. Ultimately they have to be comfortable with the reply they are putting their name to, and the potential level of risk involved.

Fundamentelly, I agree that you aren't required to incriminate yourself but for balance we should also note the risks involved.

Southeastern are entitled to send the case to the Magistrates Court, the good news is that they are normally prepared to offer an out of court settlement in cases like this as long as you co-operate with them.

The letter only asks you about the incident where you were caught, and fundamentelly you aren't required to incriminate yourself. Southeastern are highly likely to audit your Trainline purchase history which will reveal what you've been up to and they will then want to factor the cost of all the other journeys into the settlement figure. If you 'fess up' now there will be some certainty around the settlement. if you don't, you might get away with the other ocasions if they don't check your purchase history, but on the other hand a failure to be honest with them might mean they are less likely to offer a settlement if they do check.

 

[jumble]

If you have never purchased online, or used a credit card, then you will have to make a best guess. Otherwise, you can access the information.

I may be missing something but are you suggesting that the OP tells Southeastern about journeys that they have no practical way of knowing about let alone proving?

 

[Hadders]

I may be missing something but are you suggesting that the OP tells Southeastern about journeys that they have no practical way of knowing about let alone proving?

The OP tells us they purchased through Trainline app so there will be a record of the purchases.

 

[AlterEgo]

The OP tells us they purchased through Trainline app so there will be a record of the purchases.

@jumble is quoting a post suggesting that if the poster hasn't purchased the tickets online or hasn't used a credit card (and therefore the purchases would be "invisible" to Southeastern) they will "have to make a best guess".

(No, under no accounts should you just freehand some sort of estimate of otherwise undetectable offending like this!)

We know the OP has used Trainline so the point may be moot, but it's another piece of bad advice which runs counter to the OP's interests in this thread.

 

[30907]

I may be missing something but are you suggesting that the OP tells Southeastern about journeys that they have no practical way of knowing about let alone proving?

No, I was suggesting they should make that best guess for their own benefit, in answer to their question.
I entirely agree that we should not advise people to incriminate themselves, but at the same time to be careful not to appear to be lying.