SouthEastern poor training

[Failed Unit]

I purchased a ticket from Canterbury to Potters Bar not Valid on Hs1 from Canterbury West ticket office. Ask when I was returning I stated tomorrow morning. I was sold an off-peak return which i didn't think about until today. Cost 28.00

First problem. I used Hs1 and asked for the ticket to be excesses to make it the ap route. The gaurd just sold the 4.40 tax. Printed or an outward and return journey so I thought nothing more of it.

On my return I am told the off peak was not valid. Fair enough it is 0840 but I am a bit annoyed Canterbury never warned me. I travelled from potters bar to kx without meeting a barrier or staff member so it was not until st pancras I knew the problem existed. I asked for the ticket to be excessed to an anytime. It was at this point that I found out the hs upgrade was not the excess I had asked for. Worse was to come I was charged a single ticket from st pancras to Canterbury and told to claim back the overcharge. I am not best pleased but if anyone can let me know what conditions of carriage have been broken in this sad tail i would be very grateful. I am very tempted to send this over to passenger focus anyway whether the result is positive or negative. As this should not happen.

My other question is why a 28.50 return can be purchased from Potters bar to Canterbury and is valid on any route but the other way you must pay the hs1 tax?

Thanks in advance.

 

[philjo]

As both Potters Bar & Canterbury are in the ex-NSE area, there is no anytime return ticket available, only an anytime DAY return (i.e. return has to be on the same day).
Therefore if returning the next day in the peak time you need a separate single ticket.

The only return ticket available for return the next day is the off-peak return. both outward & return journeys cannot start before 09:30 (i.e. you can't leave potters Bar until 09:30 for the return journey)

I have done this journey but only starting from Potters Bar travelling to Canterbury.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Hmmm... I was once sold a Stratford to Ebbsfleet International CDR on board a 395 ( I had a ticket from St P to Stratford then wanted to go on to Ebbsfleet ) and it was actually marked "Not HS" even though it was for the same train I was about to leave St P on!

Fortunately I spotted that straight away... BUT... there is no other route anyway is there?!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Can we please try not to label every error as poor training. There is no evidence of poor training here.

On my ticket machine it doesn't say the full restriction of any ticket unless it can be fitted into one line, often it just says "see restriction..." or "not valid for outward travel before...." or similar. The system I use automatically looks for a valid journey, but I know that not all machines do, and I can bypass it if I choose to.

I doubt Canterbury West ticket office sells many tickets to Potters Bar, and so they may be unaware of the return restriction, nobody is perfect after all.

Infact, even if he sold ten a day, mistakes and lapses of concentration can and do happen everyday. Maybe Southeastern has the best training facility on the planet but the staff are bone idle, I don't know.

They made an error, but it isn't always poor training to blame.

 

[MikeWh]

Forget the training, the whole way that South Eastern has gone about pricing fares for HS1 is completely loopy.

Consider a journey from Crayford to Gillingham (Kent). There really is only one sensible route between those two stations. Earlier this year I went to the TVM at Crayford and was offered two options: Any Permitted and NOT HS1. The any permitted fare was significantly higher than the NOT HS1 fare. To date, no-one at South Eastern has been able to tell me what route the any permitted fare allowed that justified the higher price. There are three possible ways to use HS1, but neither of the first two seem likely to be valid.

1) Crayford to London, Underground to St Pancras, HS1 + Classic to Gillingham.
2) Crayford to Lewisham, DLR to Stratford, HS1 + Classic to Gillingham.
3) Crayford to Northfleet, walk to Ebbsfleet, HS1 (less than a mile of it) + Classic to Gillingham.

It may well be that the fares have been corrected now; perhaps someone with NFM07 could check.

 

[bnm]

Forget the training, the whole way that South Eastern has gone about pricing fares for HS1 is completely loopy.

Consider a journey from Crayford to Gillingham (Kent). There really is only one sensible route between those two stations. Earlier this year I went to the TVM at Crayford and was offered two options: Any Permitted and NOT HS1. The any permitted fare was significantly higher than the NOT HS1 fare. To date, no-one at South Eastern has been able to tell me what route the any permitted fare allowed that justified the higher price. There are three possible ways to use HS1, but neither of the first two seem likely to be valid.

1) Crayford to London, Underground to St Pancras, HS1 + Classic to Gillingham.
2) Crayford to Lewisham, DLR to Stratford, HS1 + Classic to Gillingham.
3) Crayford to Northfleet, walk to Ebbsfleet, HS1 (less than a mile of it) + Classic to Gillingham.

It may well be that the fares have been corrected now; perhaps someone with NFM07 could check.

Both NFM06 and NFM07 do not show any 'Any Permitted' fares for Crayford to Gillingham (Kent) excepting ones with the ticket code SPO which is marked as 'SE Promotion' (?) and one with the code ZZZ for 10p marked 'Not Valid for Travel' (?)

 

[MikeWh]

Cheers bnm,

So are the other fares all labeled NOT HS1? To the man in the street who has a little understanding of HS1 being a premium line this still seems weird because you'd never try to use HS1 for that journey.

 

[Failed Unit]

Sorry Hairyhandedfool. It was the person at St Pancras I thought was badly trained for selling a new ticket rather than excess to anytime. However it was me that is badly trained as I did not know the anytime didn't exist. I am not from the NSE area. It is a shame we can't have a consistent approach to ticketing.

Still a bit annoyed. At st pancras they said pay this and claim back the overcharge. If I had known that by waiting one hour I would have saved 28 I would have waited. I has expecting to get the single ticket less the excess refunded.

We certainly have a crazy ticketing system. Uniform restrictions would be wonderful. In my part of the world off-peak tickets are valid all day! Well ex saver ones that is.

 

[John @ home]

are the other fares all labeled NOT HS1?

Yes.

To the man in the street who has a little understanding of HS1 being a premium line this still seems weird

How about this one then?

Origin : LEEDS
Destination : MANCHESTER STNS
Route : EARLYBIRD NOT HS1
7DS : SEVEN DAY Standard Class Season £37.40

 

[philjo]

Maybe they somehow included it with the through tickets to Leeds Castle when doing a global change to add the not-HS1 routes?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Sorry Hairyhandedfool. It was the person at St Pancras I thought was badly trained for selling a new ticket rather than excess to anytime. However it was me that is badly trained as I did not know the anytime didn't exist. I am not from the NSE area. It is a shame we can't have a consistent approach to ticketing...

It's not just you, I've seen it around a lot recently, here and elsewhere and it starts to get at me when anything that isn't immediately explained is poor training or jobsworths or something. I didn't mean it to sound like I was having a go if that is how it came across.

...Still a bit annoyed. At st pancras they said pay this and claim back the overcharge. If I had known that by waiting one hour I would have saved 28 I would have waited. I has expecting to get the single ticket less the excess refunded...

I can see why you'd be annoyed, but the chaps at St Pancras have few options in these circumstances and any leniency will be pounced on by the 'real fare evaders'.

...We certainly have a crazy ticketing system. Uniform restrictions would be wonderful....

We do indeed, and they certainly would!

 

[Magicake]

As both Potters Bar & Canterbury are in the ex-NSE area, there is no anytime return ticket available, only an anytime DAY return (i.e. return has to be on the same day).
Therefore if returning the next day in the peak time you need a separate single ticket.

The only return ticket available for return the next day is the off-peak return. both outward & return journeys cannot start before 09:30 (i.e. you can't leave potters Bar until 09:30 for the return journey)

Really? I quite often buy an SVR from Tonbridge to Tring and when returning the next morning at peak time ticket office staff are more than happy to excess me to an SDR ie. pay £7.25 after accounting for YPR. I always thought it seemed wrong that I was travelling over two days for the cost of a day return.

Consider a journey from Crayford to Gillingham (Kent). There really is only one sensible route between those two stations. Earlier this year I went to the TVM at Crayford and was offered two options: Any Permitted and NOT HS1. The any permitted fare was significantly higher than the NOT HS1 fare. To date, no-one at South Eastern has been able to tell me what route the any permitted fare allowed that justified the higher price. There are three possible ways to use HS1, but neither of the first two seem likely to be valid.

I found the same thing when looking up a Sevenoaks to Colchester fare in NFM06 yesterday. There's a cheaper route +NOT VALID ON HS1 and the frankly bizarre +AP at very slightly more.

 

[Failed Unit]

It gets worse! Yes from the posts above I made a mistake, but how this is tickets validity is stated on the SouthEastern Website.

Off Peak Return
Discounts:Children (aged 5 to 15 inclusive): 50% discount. Up to two children aged under 5 can travel free with each fare paying passenger. Railcard discounts: 16-25 Railcard: 34% discount, Disabled Persons Railcard: 34% discount, Family & Friends Railcard: 34% discount, HM Forces Railcard: 34% discount, Network Railcard : 34% discount and Senior Railcard: 34% discount on Standard. Other discount cards Gold Cards : 34% discount and New Deal Photocard (England and Wales): 50% discount. NOTE: Minimum fares / time restrictions may apply to tickets bought with a Railcard or other discount card. See terms and conditions of the appropriate Railcard or discount card for details.
Refunds:Your ticket is refundable. If you decide not to use your ticket to make all or part of your intended journey then you can get a refund by returning your unused ticket to the ticket office or place of purchase (for tickets bought via websites, telesales or travel agents) within 28 days of the ticket expiry date. You may be required to pay an administration fee. The refund amount will normally take into account any use you have made of the ticket and in some circumstances no refund will be paid.
Break of journey:You may start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station along the route of travel on Off-Peak tickets unless the ticket restriction for the journey you are making does not allow it. If you intend to start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station, please call 08457 48 49 50 to check if it is available on your specific journey. Where Break of Journey is available on your specific journey, if you wish to stop overnight or it is not possible to complete the journey by 0230 on the day following the last day of validity, you may continue your journey the following morning. Travel must resume before 1200, where the time restrictions that apply to the ticket should be observed and no further break of journey is allowed except to change trains. NOTE: Cross London transfers will not be accepted by London Underground during this extension period.
Validity:Conditions of Use. You must travel in the class of accommodation shown on your ticket. Where accomodation is provided, you may upgrade to First Class. Railcard holders travelling on a discounted ticket must carry their Railcard when they travel. If a Railcard holder fails to produce their valid Railcard with their ticket, they will be required to pay a full priced ticket for their journey as if no Railcard and/or no ticket were held. The outward part of the ticket is only valid for travel when accompanied by the unused return part of the same ticket. When and where the ticket can be used. Off-Peak tickets may require you to travel at specific times of day, days of the week or on a specific route. Website journey planners can tell you when your ticket can be used - simply enter your outward and return journey times to see the trains you can travel on. The outward part of Off-Peak Return tickets are valid for travel on the date shown on your ticket. Break of journey for an overnight stay is allowed. Where a journey continues into the next day, travel must resume before 1200 and no further break of journey is allowed except to change trains. The return part of Off-Peak Return tickets are valid for travel within one calendar month of the outward journey. Travel is allowed until 0230 on the day following the last day of validity. If you are still travelling at 0230 then you may stay on the train to complete that part of the journey but no further break of journey is allowed and all travel must be completed by 1200. Travelling via London. If the route shown on the ticket has a + the ticket includes the cost of travelling between certain London Stations (e.g. between Liverpool St and Paddington) by either London Underground, Docklands Light Railway (DLR) or First Capital Connect (Thameslink Route) services appropriate to the route of the journey being made. Tickets will only be accepted by London Underground and DLR on the up to the last day of validity on the return portion of tickets and until 0429 the following day. Other than to change trains, a break of journey at intermediate London Underground or DLR stations is NOT permitted. Travel restrictions do not apply on public holidays. All tickets and travel are subject to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.
Booking deadline:Tickets can be bought in advance or immediately before travel. You can reserve a seat on many longer distance services. Reservations are recommended on busy services. If you wish to change your time of travel you can pay the difference between the cost of the ticket held and the cost of the ticket that is most appropriate for the journey you need to make. In many cases, if you are still travelling at a time when your ticket is not restricted, no additional fare is payable. If you wish to change the date of outward travel, or the origin or destination of your ticket, it may be necessary to buy a new ticket and apply for a refund on your existing ticket (see below).

Not exactly customer friendly. Yes I didn't buy this ticket online but did attempt to investigate on my mobile this morning.

http://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/tickets-and-fares/ticket-types/off-peak-tickets/177/

So the very annoyed failed unit retrospecitvely can't find anywhere on Southern's website that explictly says not valid before 0930. (or at least where I would expect to look). Without replanning the journey! It will be interesting to see how SouthEastern deal with my complaint, I will let you know. Maybe the Thread should read SouthEastern don't highlight ticket restrictions very well! Next time I am at the TVM I will see if it gives an explaination of the real time the ticket is valid. I normally coming from up North buy off-peak and excess should I change my plans and return in the peak. So I have learnt and expensive lesson in the South East, Don't because you can't!

 

[yorkie]

I purchased a ticket from Canterbury to Potters Bar not Valid on Hs1 from Canterbury West ticket office. Ask when I was returning I stated tomorrow morning. I was sold an off-peak return which i didn't think about until today. Cost 28.00

First problem. I used Hs1 and asked for the ticket to be excesses to make it the ap route. The gaurd just sold the 4.40 tax. Printed or an outward and return journey so I thought nothing more of it.

The ticket you bought was £28.00 the excess to change borth portions is £4.50.

You were charged a supplement which I believe is calculated on a £4.40 difference of fare for a single.

First question: Did you ask for an excess for the entire ticket (ie, both portions)? If so, I think the guard may have acted incorrectly (depending on the answer to the second question)

Second question: Can SouthEastern disregard / refuse to issue excess fares on the basis that they can sell upgrades instead?

Excesses are a faff. Someone realised that there was a potential for a lot of faffing about on HS1, so a supplement was made instead. Was this intentionally made higher than the price of an excess? Should an excess be sold where cheaper (I think it should)? Are SE acting within the NCoC by issuing these supplements?

 

[Failed Unit]

The ticket you bought was £28.00 the excess to change borth portions is £4.50.

You were charged a supplement which I believe is calculated on a £4.40 difference of fare for a single.

First question: Did you ask for an excess for the entire ticket (ie, both portions)? If so, I think the guard may have acted incorrectly (depending on the answer to the second question)

Second question: Can SouthEastern disregard / refuse to issue excess fares on the basis that they can sell upgrades instead?

Excesses are a faff. Someone realised that there was a potential for a lot of faffing about on HS1, so a supplement was made instead. Was this intentionally made higher than the price of an excess? Should an excess be sold where cheaper (I think it should)? Are SE acting within the NCoC by issuing these supplements?

Yes I did specificly ask for an excess so "the Return would also be valid on HS1". I didn't question at the time as I didn't know the difference between the 2 fares anyway. (I normally do this journey in the opposite direction where the fare is cheaper @ £28.50 and the fare gets you an Any Permitted route ticket). The supplement printed out had two portions a single and a return so the alarm bells didn't start ringing. Why physically print 2 tickets if the 2nd one was not valid for travel!

 

[RJ]

It's not just you, I've seen it around a lot recently, here and elsewhere and it starts to get at me when anything that isn't immediately explained is poor training or jobsworths or something. I didn't mean it to sound like I was having a go if that is how it came across.

Indeed. Some people will never, ever grasp how to do the correct ticket quickly, no matter how superb the training is. Conversely, no training course could cover every situation.

 

[Deerfold]

Indeed. Some people will never, ever grasp how to do the correct ticket quickly, no matter how superb the training is. Conversely, no training course could cover every situation.

Which suggests they're employing the wrong people.

 

[yorkie]

Which suggests they're employing the wrong people.

true, especially in the current climate!