Southeastern metro fleet replacement/improvement

[frankmoh]

This video https://x.com/AaronBastani/status/2059786562339025291 of the aftermath of someone removing all of the seats on a Networker train and stuffing them in the toilet is doing the rounds on social media. This isn't a new issue and I've known of it to happen before but I can't say I've experienced it firsthand (I have a feeling it's a problem on the Vic-Orp route on the last services of the night, if it's a common issue at all)


But this is honestly such a silly design. It's not like Southeastern regularly clean and exchange these cushions. What on earth is the point?

The 465s are from another era... it's telling how I can find staff training videos for cleaning trains from the NSE days but not anything newer.

 

[Goldfish62]

This video https://x.com/AaronBastani/status/2059786562339025291 of the aftermath of someone removing all of the seats on a Networker train and stuffing them in the toilet is doing the rounds on social media. This isn't a new issue and I've known of it to happen before but I can't say I've experienced it firsthand (I have a feeling it's a problem on the Vic-Orp route on the last services of the night, if it's a common issue at all)


But this is honestly such a silly design. It's not like Southeastern regularly clean and exchange these cushions. What on earth is the point?

I first experienced this around 20 years ago.

It's a 35 year old seat design. Not everything old on the railways is better!

 

[brad465]

I first experienced this around 20 years ago.

It's a 35 year old seat design. Not everything old on the railways is better!

I seem to recall that the original HST seat design was essentially netting, but this was rejected on the basis that they were very easy to tear and this would require a full seat replacement. You'd think when designing Networker seats they'd have used the same sort of logic, but obviously not.

 

[Goldfish62]

I seem to recall that the original HST seat design was essentially netting, but this was rejected on the basis that they were very easy to tear and this would require a full seat replacement. You'd think when designing Networker seats they'd have used the same sort of logic, but obviously not.

But the HSTs and several other trains of that era still ended up with headrests that kept falling off!

 

[C377]

This video https://x.com/AaronBastani/status/2059786562339025291 of the aftermath of someone removing all of the seats on a Networker train and stuffing them in the toilet is doing the rounds on social media. This isn't a new issue and I've known of it to happen before but I can't say I've experienced it firsthand (I have a feeling it's a problem on the Vic-Orp route on the last services of the night, if it's a common issue at all)


But this is honestly such a silly design. It's not like Southeastern regularly clean and exchange these cushions. What on earth is the point?

The seat cushions are fixed down by a small hook on the seat base. It was effective at securing the seats down in NSE days but after decades of wear they basically don't work anymore.
I guess it's just down to the fact that fitting the entire fleet with a new seat locking design is too expensive and provides no benefit, considering that these issues don't happen that much and are solved quickly.

 

[317 forever]

The 458/4s would seem a logical replacement for some remaining 465s, although any reasons against may have been mentioned elsewhere.

 

[SECR 65]

Are there any mainline SE routes where 458s could run? Am I right SE is DOO in the metro area but not elsewhere?

 

[Stephen42]

Are there any mainline SE routes where 458s could run? Am I right SE is DOO in the metro area but not elsewhere?

Correct SE is DOO in the metro area with guards elsewhere (and rostered to be on board mainline trains in the metro area).

There isn't an obvious route to put 458s on and only a few Networkers on mainline routes. There aren't enough to displace the 377s and they are maintained off patch anyway with maintenance for any new mainline fleet going to be tricky.

On the new metro fleet Steve White recently posted to Twitter/X:

We have a business case ready to replace our metro fleet with a transformational replacement offering improved capacity, accessibility and customer experience

Hopefully that means it's just all the various approvals left and that a formal announcement isn't too far away.

 

[wls1]

458s lack DOO ability meaning they wouldn’t be able to run in the DOO area, which is Farningham Road - London, Hildenborough - London and Kemsing - London

 

[SECR 65]

How many non-London services do SE operate?

Paddock Wood - Strood
Sheerness
Bromley North

Any more? Could they find use for 27 units not within the metro area?

 

[Cach17]

How many non-London services do SE operate?

Paddock Wood - Strood
Sheerness
Bromley North

Any more? Could they find use for 27 units not within the metro area?

That's the full list.

If the 458s go anywhere else, Southern would be a better (though not necessarily great) fit.

 

[brad465]

How many non-London services do SE operate?

Paddock Wood - Strood
Sheerness
Bromley North

Any more? Could they find use for 27 units not within the metro area?

I'd like to see the new metro fleet takeover those branches, allowing the 375/3s to strengthen mainline services. 465s don't do the first two branches due to dispatch issues at Swale and Cuxton (and/or Halling), along with SDO needs at Beltring, but if the new fleet allows SDO and guard operation from any doors, they should be good for the branches, where their hopefully better acceleration is more useful.

 

[SECR 65]

That's the full list.

If the 458s go anywhere else, Southern would be a better (though not necessarily great) fit.

Southern is almost exclusively DOO. This has been discussed on another thread. Possibly the Coastways but you'd have to train and employ / convert guards. Otherwise fit batteries and do Uckfield / Marshlink.

 

[317 forever]

That's the full list.

If the 458s go anywhere else, Southern would be a better (though not necessarily great) fit.

I'm sure I've seen a suggestion that the 458s are introduced on Coastway services ie not serving London, and the 377s replace 465s at South Eastern.

EDIT : It was mentioned just above, but I didn't know that when I submitted my post.

 

[Ellwill]

I'm sure I've seen a suggestion that the 458s are introduced on Coastway services ie not serving London, and the 377s replace 465s at South Eastern.

458s for the Coastway, with the 387s strengthening GatEx service as is currently intended by GTR and pledged by DafT. If any are left over they could allow a few more 377s to cascade to SE.

458s on SE? At best I could see them supplementing the 377s on Gills stoppers and CHX-MDE semifasts, and maybe Cannon St summer specials down to Thanet also.

 

[JonathanH]

458s for the Coastway, with the 387s strengthening GatEx service as is currently intended by GTR and pledged by DafT. If any are left over they could allow a few more 377s to cascade to SE.

What is the provision on the 458s for DOO with in-cab monitors?

 

[Ellwill]

What is the provision on the 458s for DOO with in-cab monitors?

At the moment I can't say for sure, I was certain that they did have everything needed for DOO while running at SWR but some here are claiming otherwise.

 

[brad465]

458s for the Coastway, with the 387s strengthening GatEx service as is currently intended by GTR and pledged by DafT. If any are left over they could allow a few more 377s to cascade to SE.

458s on SE? At best I could see them supplementing the 377s on Gills stoppers and CHX-MDE semifasts, and maybe Cannon St summer specials down to Thanet also.

I cannot see 458s at Southeastern, as that's yet another new fleet all the staff have to be trained on. A cascade of 377s as a result of them going to Southern is probably more likely as per your main suggestion. I don't see SE getting many more though as there isn't much more work they can easily take on. SE might enough to completely eliminate 465s on Victoria-Gillingham diagrams, but that would be it; Tunbridge Wells' services would require a large logistical shake-up and a number of units that would mean Southern don't really get any capacity enhancement.

 

[wls1]

Anyone got a list of Scrapped/Stored/In service 465 + 466?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I cannot see 458s at Southeastern, as that's yet another new fleet all the staff have to be trained on. A cascade of 377s as a result of them going to Southern is probably more likely as per your main suggestion. I don't see SE getting many more though as there isn't much more work they can easily take on. SE might enough to completely eliminate 465s on Victoria-Gillingham diagrams, but that would be it; Tunbridge Wells' services would require a large logistical shake-up and a number of units that would mean Southern don't really get any capacity enhancement.

SE have shown themselves adept at absorbing others stock so whilst its not ideal it provides the means to remove another 20 Networkers. Even if DfT allow them to order new trains wont be seen till next decade.

 

[Krystal]

Anyone got a list of Scrapped/Stored/In service 465 + 466?

465005, 465032, 465188, 465905, 465915, 465917, 465918, 465920, 465921, 465931, 465933 and 465934 have been scrapped.
All the 465/2s except 465241, 242 and 247 are scrapped.
465045, 465169 and 465175 are in Dollands Moor for short term storage.
Everything else is in service but note there are some units that have not run in passenger service in a while (such as 465027, for example)

As for the 466s:
466001, 466002, 466004, 466005, 466007, 466009, 466010, 466012, 466013, 466014, 466015, 466016, 466017, 466020, 466024, 466025, 466027, 466028, 466029, 466030, 466031, 466032, 466033, 466036, 466037 and 466041 have been scrapped.
466043 is with the East Kent Railway.
Everything else is in service with SE.

 

[frankmoh]

I'm sure I've seen a suggestion that the 458s are introduced on Coastway services ie not serving London, and the 377s replace 465s at South Eastern.

EDIT : It was mentioned just above, but I didn't know that when I submitted my post.

377s on metro routes? I know Southern manages it somehow, but I don't think losing all that seating capacity will be good.

 

[wls1]

The spectacular failure of 465017 and 465919 on 2I47 at London Bridge in the evening peak last night shows the dire situation, if the rumour of them wanting rid of met cams soon is true with no replacement then expect many short forms or service reductions

 

[Snow1964]

How many non-London services do SE operate?

Paddock Wood - Strood
Sheerness
Bromley North

Any more? Could they find use for 27 units not within the metro area?

Are there any dedicated peak hour only diagrams to/from London, where a smallish number of crews could be trained.

Clearly if can then release say 3 unit 375s from 6 or 7 workings, to cascade, then have 18-21 standard units released to cover some of the dying networkers

They couldn't be used as 12car formations on Waterloo-Portsmouth line, as too long for some terminal platforms, or more strictly where they fitted in the platforms couldn't then see the starting signal. A 12car class 458 set is 246m long, which is about 4m (or 13 feet) longer than a 12car class 375

 

[SECR 65]

Are there any dedicated peak hour only diagrams to/from London, where a smallish number of crews could be trained.

Yes, I think. I'm not very familiar with SE but I do have some limited knowledge about the train planning side of things.

There are definitely a few peak extras running to/from Cannon Street. Certainly on the Hastings line, but I'm sure there are others.

The 458s could possibly be used on an isolated service, e.g. Tun Wells terminators?

However, crewing would be a right pickle. You would probably only want one or two depots to sign the 458s. But I think there is loads of interworking of crews between depots where a driver from one depot will relieve another mid-service. Trying to plan would become utter chaos.

The Networkers are had it. And the SE website mentions frequency doubling on metro routes to 4tph. Some 377s might be best - but then Southern need something to run - they don't have an abundance of stock either, and GatEx is gonna need an extra half a dozen diagrams for the Gatwick terminators which are soon coming in.

 

[RichJF]

Yes, I think. I'm not very familiar with SE but I do have some limited knowledge about the train planning side of things.

There are definitely a few peak extras running to/from Cannon Street. Certainly on the Hastings line, but I'm sure there are others.

The 458s could possibly be used on an isolated service, e.g. Tun Wells terminators?

However, crewing would be a right pickle. You would probably only want one or two depots to sign the 458s. But I think there is loads of interworking of crews between depots where a driver from one depot will relieve another mid-service. Trying to plan would become utter chaos.

The Networkers are had it. And the SE website mentions frequency doubling on metro routes to 4tph. Some 377s might be best - but then Southern need something to run - they don't have an abundance of stock either, and GatEx is gonna need an extra half a dozen diagrams for the Gatwick terminators which are soon coming in.

28 x 458/4 fleet vs 27 x 387s required for the Gatwick Express service. Am I right? Is that too convenient in my brain to imagine a theoretical post SWR usage? Then a knock on move of 387s to other Southern services & 377s moving over to Kent?

 

[SECR 65]

How many MetCam 465s remain?

28 x 458/4 fleet vs 27 x 387s required for the Gatwick Express service. Am I right? Is that too convenient in my brain to imagine a theoretical post SWR usage? Then a knock on move of 387s to other Southern services & 377s moving over to Kent?

This is very true. But having a separate GatEx fleet may or may not make sense if merged under GBR. 27 isn't necessarily the right number of units for GatEx. You need 6 diagrams to run a peak time 2tph to Brighton. Thats 12 units as 8sets or 18 units as 12sets. If you then run 2tph Gatwick terminators - 3 diagrams, as 8 sets this would need 6 units. If worked out right, thats 24 units - perfect!

BUT
If Southern lose 25 odd units, thats a net loss for them, as ~10 red 387/2s are used for SN services each day.

 

[brad465]

The spectacular failure of 465017 and 465919 on 2I47 at London Bridge in the evening peak last night shows the dire situation, if the rumour of them wanting rid of met cams soon is true with no replacement then expect many short forms or service reductions

I think you mean 2I49. 2I47 was a pair of 376s (which turned round at Plumstead, presumably because they couldn't get into London as a result of aforementioned breakdown):

Realtime Trains | 2I49 1704 London Cannon Street to London Bridge | 09/06/2026

Real-time train running information for 2I49 1704 departure from London Cannon Street to London Bridge on 09/06/2026. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 2I47 1634 London Cannon Street to Plumstead | 09/06/2026

Real-time train running information for 2I47 1634 departure from London Cannon Street to Plumstead on 09/06/2026. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[ExRes]

465005, 465032, 465188, 465905, 465915, 465917, 465918, 465920, 465921, 465931, 465933 and 465934 have been scrapped.
All the 465/2s except 465241, 242 and 247 are scrapped.
465045, 465169 and 465175 are in Dollands Moor for short term storage.
Everything else is in service but note there are some units that have not run in passenger service in a while (such as 465027, for example)

As for the 466s:
466001, 466002, 466004, 466005, 466007, 466009, 466010, 466012, 466013, 466014, 466015, 466016, 466017, 466020, 466024, 466025, 466027, 466028, 466029, 466030, 466031, 466032, 466033, 466036, 466037 and 466041 have been scrapped.
466043 is with the East Kent Railway.
Everything else is in service with SE.

It may be of interest that a contributor to se gen is reporting on the 13th, 20th & 27th Networker units are due to be moved from Dollands Moor to Slade Green by RailAdventure, 20007 & 20205 are expected to be involved with RA barrier vans, unit movement from Dollands Moor this Saturday is due to be 0930 7Y65

 

[C377]

465021 is not going for scrap. It is being rebuilt, as will all the Networkers in short-term storage at Dollands Moor.
Only 032/005/188 were designated for scrap, no more BREL units are going to be scrapped at the moment, however the fate of the dormant units that haven't ran in ages is still undecided.
Southeastern are also looking at potentially scrapping 3 /9s units, however not sure if that's going ahead anymore. No more 466s are to be scrapped as well for the time being.

And here's 465045 returning this weekend for reactivation from Dollands Moor. 465175 will return on 20/06 and 465169 will follow on 27/06.

Realtime Trains | 7Y65 0930 Dollands Moor Sdgs to Slade Green T&R.S.M.D | 13/06/2026

Real-time train running information for 7Y65 0930 departure from Dollands Moor Sdgs to Slade Green T&R.S.M.D on 13/06/2026. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jun 2026 ==

The spectacular failure of 465017 and 465919 on 2I47 at London Bridge in the evening peak last night shows the dire situation, if the rumour of them wanting rid of met cams soon is true with no replacement then expect many short forms or service reductions

Was an air leak on 919, unfortunate but not really a dire situation. The rumour of SE wanting rid of the MetCams is nothing but a rumour that has existed since 2022, it's not happening, especially considering how much the BRELs are suffering at the moment.