Southeastern metro fleet replacement/improvement

[brad465]

There's another scrap run tomorrow. Given there are no 2s left at Ely, this means if it's a Networker drag, it has to be 466s and/or any of the 9s currently there:

Realtime Trains | 5Q76 0858 Ely Mlf Papworth Sidings to Newport Docks (Simsgroup) | 29/05/2025

Real-time train running information for 5Q76 0858 departure from Ely Mlf Papworth Sidings to Newport Docks (Simsgroup) on 29/05/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 May 2025 ==

Does anyone have an updated list of what 466s are in store? Wikipedia's list is definitely not up to date on this.

 

[50002Superb]

There's another scrap run tomorrow. Given there are no 2s left at Ely, this means if it's a Networker drag, it has to be 466s and/or any of the 9s currently there:

Realtime Trains | 5Q76 0858 Ely Mlf Papworth Sidings to Newport Docks (Simsgroup) | 29/05/2025

Real-time train running information for 5Q76 0858 departure from Ely Mlf Papworth Sidings to Newport Docks (Simsgroup) on 29/05/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 May 2025 ==

Does anyone have an updated list of what 466s are in store? Wikipedia's list is definitely not up to date on this.

Interesting news if so.

 

[Robin Edwards]

There's another scrap run tomorrow. Given there are no 2s left at Ely, this means if it's a Networker drag, it has to be 466s and/or any of the 9s currently there:

Realtime Trains | 5Q76 0858 Ely Mlf Papworth Sidings to Newport Docks (Simsgroup) | 29/05/2025

Real-time train running information for 5Q76 0858 departure from Ely Mlf Papworth Sidings to Newport Docks (Simsgroup) on 29/05/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 May 2025 ==

Does anyone have an updated list of what 466s are in store? Wikipedia's list is definitely not up to date on this.

At Ely there is 466001/010/013/017/024/027/30/033/043 - none of which are readily visible from viewpoints at the site. 466016 is at Doncaster Wabtec

 

[brad465]

At Ely there is 466001/010/013/017/024/027/30/033/043 - none of which are readily visible from viewpoints at the site. 466016 is at Doncaster Wabtec

Thank you for this.

 

[Wolvercoter]

Had a nose through the fences at Ely on Saturday. 465905, 465934 were visible at the front end, and 465918, 465933 and 465917 on the blocks.

 

[frankmoh]

I wonder why the /0s and /1s were given to Eversholt whereas the /2s (and the /9s but they are basically refurbed /2s) where given to Angel. Did Angel specialise in Metro-Cammell stuff?

 

[brad465]

Had a nose through the fences at Ely on Saturday. 465905, 465934 were visible at the front end, and 465918, 465933 and 465917 on the blocks.

While I wouldn't be surprised if the 9s in store do go soon, given they've only been out for 2 years I wonder if they should hold on a bit longer in case something happens at Southeastern that means they a) need to do a unit swap, and/or b) have something for spares?

The 466s there though are probably done for, given some of those have been out for 4 years and a few of the ones already scrapped went straight from Gillingham, so never spent time off lease/stored.

 

[frankmoh]

While I wouldn't be surprised if the 9s in store do go soon, given they've only been out for 2 years I wonder if they should hold on a bit longer in case something happens at Southeastern that means they a) need to do a unit swap, and/or b) have something for spares?

The 466s there though are probably done for, given some of those have been out for 4 years and a few of the ones already scrapped went straight from Gillingham, so never spent time off lease/stored.

Not too relevant, but I wonder if its possible to have an ABB 465, a BREL/Hitachi 465 and a Metro-Cammell 466 all coupled as one 10 car train together. I assume that mixing motor types isn't allowed?

 

[50002Superb]

Had a nose through the fences at Ely on Saturday. 465905, 465934 were visible at the front end, and 465918, 465933 and 465917 on the blocks.

Didn’t realise that 465918 had gone to Ely, when did that happen?

 

[brad465]

Didn’t realise that 465918 had gone to Ely, when did that happen?

Sometime in the summer of 2023, when the remaining 707s came over to SE.

 

[50002Superb]

Sometime in the summer of 2023, when the remaining 707s came over to SE.

My last notes had it at Doncaster?

 

[JonathanH]

Not too relevant, but I wonder if its possible to have an ABB 465, a BREL/Hitachi 465 and a Metro-Cammell 466 all coupled as one 10 car train together. I assume that mixing motor types isn't allowed?

Mixing units is fine, not least because a 466 doesn't have the Hitachi modification, and have to be able to multi with 465/0 or 465/1 to form 10 coach trains.

 

[DBS92042]

There's another scrap run tomorrow. Given there are no 2s left at Ely, this means if it's a Networker drag, it has to be 466s and/or any of the 9s currently there:

Realtime Trains | 5Q76 0858 Ely Mlf Papworth Sidings to Newport Docks (Simsgroup) | 29/05/2025

Real-time train running information for 5Q76 0858 departure from Ely Mlf Papworth Sidings to Newport Docks (Simsgroup) on 29/05/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 May 2025 ==

Does anyone have an updated list of what 466s are in store? Wikipedia's list is definitely not up to date on this.

Reported as 37884 + 465915 466027

 

[MPW]

Can someone please explain the interest in networked movements to depots further afield? Is this just train spotting for people who don't live close enough to see them on the SE network?

I also miss the point about references to specific train unit numbers. Thanks to this forum my train spotting advanced to noticing at least what kind of train it is based on the number but after that seems about as interesting as car number plates.

Please let me in on the secret so I can nerd out with you

 

[frankmoh]

Can someone please explain the interest in networked movements to depots further afield? Is this just train spotting for people who don't live close enough to see them on the SE network?

I also miss the point about references to specific train unit numbers. Thanks to this forum my train spotting advanced to noticing at least what kind of train it is based on the number but after that seems about as interesting as car number plates.

Please let me in on the secret so I can nerd out with you

Many Networkers that have gone into storage have never come out again...

5 465s are currently scrapped
10 466s are scrapped
EVERY 365 is scrapped!

 

[Robin Edwards]

Can someone please explain the interest in networked movements to depots further afield? Is this just train spotting for people who don't live close enough to see them on the SE network?

I also miss the point about references to specific train unit numbers. Thanks to this forum my train spotting advanced to noticing at least what kind of train it is based on the number but after that seems about as interesting as car number plates.

Please let me in on the secret so I can nerd out with you

It's last-chance saloon simply put. To explain the psychology beyond that would take me more time that I have and this thread wouldn't be the place tbh.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 May 2025 ==

Reported as 37884 + 465915 466027

Interesting - does it mean that 1x 466 + 1x 465/9 at a time is more likely than say 2x or even 4x 466s?

 

[meld3]

Many Networkers that have gone into storage have never come out again...

5 465s are currently scrapped
10 466s are scrapped
EVERY 365 is scrapped!

12 x 465 scrapped: 235, 236, 238, 239, 240, 243, 244, 245, 246, 248, 249, 250. (+915 going today)
8 x 466 scrapped: 004, 005, 007, 009, 014, 025, 032, 037. (+027 going today)

Happy to be corrected if I have missed a couple of 466's going ??

 

[Mastermind88]

Interesting - does it mean that 1x 466 + 1x 465/9 at a time is more likely than say 2x or even 4x 466s?

Multiples of 466s aren't allowed to run without a 465 of any type due to the lack of an accessible toilet on the 466.

This is also why 466 no longer run on the Sheerness or Bromley North

 

[50002Superb]

Multiples of 466s aren't allowed to run without a 465 of any type due to the lack of an accessible toilet on the 466.

This is also why 466 no longer run on the Sheerness or Bromley North

I thought the question was being posed as to scrap moves not in service.

 

[Robin Edwards]

I thought the question was being posed as to scrap moves not in service.

Indeed so. I imagine need for toilets en-route to Newport would be superfluous.

 

[frankmoh]

12 x 465 scrapped: 235, 236, 238, 239, 240, 243, 244, 245, 246, 248, 249, 250. (+915 going today)
8 x 466 scrapped: 004, 005, 007, 009, 014, 025, 032, 037. (+027 going today)

Happy to be corrected if I have missed a couple of 466's going ??

Very unhappy to be corrected! Southeastern probably needs to acquire more trains to fill the gaps soon.

 

[JonathanH]

Southeastern probably needs to acquire more trains to fill the gaps soon.

The gaps have been filled with 707s and the influx of 377s.

 

[brad465]

The gaps have been filled with 707s and the influx of 377s.

And with the recent 377s there seems to be a net increase on before their arrival, as all I can recall leaving SE in the build-up were 5x 466s that went to scrap directly from Gillingham. This may have helped with the May timetable change seeing some extra 10 and 12-car Networker diagrams compared to before.

 

[frankmoh]

The gaps have been filled with 707s and the influx of 377s.

But for metro routes the amount of 707s delivered is lower than the total amount of 465s (which will 100% be replaced)

 

[brad465]

But for metro routes?

The 707s are all over metro routes.

 

[frankmoh]

The 707s are all over metro routes.

A poorly timed edit on my part, reread please!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 May 2025 ==

Oh well, I guess today there will be 2 less networkers in the world.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 May 2025 ==

The 707s are all over metro routes.

I do have to wonder which train could fully take over the 465 as a multirole train, considering it can do metro and main line with ease. Is there a difference in doctrine between NSE's needs of a universal train and SE's needs for trains with different purposes?

 

[brad465]

A poorly timed edit on my part, reread please!

Apologies, the 707s were sort of dumped on SE because SWR ended up ordering 701s to replace them along with everything else. SE used them to get rid of the most problematic Networker units, but it's still another fleet to have to learn and maintain in a different way to others. In hindsight though the 701 debacle should have seen all the 707s stay at SWR until enough 701s were deployed to allow them all to go to SE; as it happens the 707 cascade was staggered because of the former issue, but I still think too quick given SWR's situation.

I do have to wonder which train could fully take over the 465 as a multirole train, considering it can do metro and main line with ease. Is there a difference in doctrine between NSE's needs of a universal train and SE's needs for trains with different purposes?

I don't think this will happen, but I would like to see the fleet being tendered by SE at the moment have a multirole aspect and be larger than currently speculated. If the fleet was large enough, they could also replace the 376s for a more homogenous fleet. Furthermore, if a subset were ordered with a different interior layout more suited for longer distance operations, they could send all the 377s back to Southern. Electrostars might have better interior comfort (especially the 375s), but their stop/start acceleration is poor compared to Networkers, so a new fleet with a 375-like interior and 465-like acceleration would work wonders on the Tunbridge Wells', Maidstone East line and Chatham mainline stopping services. Also, if the new fleet had a top speed of 90-100mph, it could fully utilise line speeds above 75mph.

 

[frankmoh]

Apologies, the 707s were sort of dumped on SE because SWR ended up ordering 701s to replace them along with everything else. SE used them to get rid of the most problematic Networker units, but it's still another fleet to have to learn and maintain in a different way to others. In hindsight though the 701 debacle should have seen all the 707s stay at SWR until enough 701s were deployed to allow them all to go to SE; as it happens the 707 cascade was staggered because of the former issue, but I still think too quick given SWR's situation.

I don't think this will happen, but I would like to see the fleet being tendered by SE at the moment have a multirole aspect and be larger than currently speculated. If the fleet was large enough, they could also replace the 376s for a more homogenous fleet. Furthermore, if a subset were ordered with a different interior layout more suited for longer distance operations, they could send all the 377s back to Southern. Electrostars might have better interior comfort (especially the 375s), but their stop/start acceleration is poor compared to Networkers, so a new fleet with a 375-like interior and 465-like acceleration would work wonders on the Tunbridge Wells', Maidstone East line and Chatham mainline stopping services. Also, if the new fleet had a top speed of 90-100mph, it could fully utilise line speeds above 75mph.

Just put the 465 motors in the 375

Does the 707 have acceptable acceleration for you? The only time I've actually paid attention to a train accelerating was a 465 (shocker), in part because it was a /9 with the noisy motors but also because it was a fast train from Catford to London Bridge that was also late.

It will be a sad day when the only place I can hear that Metro-Cammell "gear shift" (not really) is on the Jubilee line. Even then the tube trains go at half the speed so its never in full.

 

[Goldfish62]

Just put the 465 motors in the 375

Does the 707 have acceptable acceleration for you? The only time I've actually paid attention to a train accelerating was a 465 (shocker), in part because it was a /9 with the noisy motors but also because it was a fast train from Catford to London Bridge that was also late.

It will be a sad day when the only place I can hear that Metro-Cammell "gear shift" (not really) is on the Jubilee line. Even then the tube trains go at half the speed so its never in full.

The 1996 Jubilee stock frequently achieve 60mph, so not far off the Networkers.

 

[rmHawk765]

Does the 707 have acceptable acceleration for you? The only time I've actually paid attention to a train accelerating was a 465 (shocker), in part because it was a /9 with the noisy motors but also because it was a fast train from Catford to London Bridge that was also late.

Desiro Cities have great acceleration, it's just they're fairly quiet so you don't always notice it.