Southeastern metro cuts from January - effects?

[SF-02]

Due to London Bridge rebuilding and seeming lack of planning there's some big capacity cuts coming from January. The line through Greenwich is seeing a third of trains cut and around 20-25% of passenger capacity cut at the busiest evening peak time.

I'm wondering what the effects will be and how quickly extra stock could be received to deal with it? The plan for 377/1 is way too far off and will arrive just before Crossrail is opening and London bridge is completing when the need is diminished.

Basic story is that less trains can run which is fair enough with all the work. Problem is that the remaining trains that do run on the Greenwich line can't be 12 car despite years of work on platforms and power upgrades as 1) SE lack stock 2) Woolwich Dockyard has only 10 car platforms and work not done there, and no trains with SDO have been cascaded to SE. The delayed 700 ordering played a part here I suppose in not freeing up 377s.

The 20-25% of lost passenger capacity has to go somewhere. Its not like the Olympics with travel changes needed for 2 weeks at the quietest period. Most of the lost % are supposed to go via Lewisham and DLR instead, but isn't Lewisham already packed, and can trains on other lines heading between London terminals & Lewisham take many extra using it? Even then, this option is of limited use to most on the line.

Would it have been possible for some 377s with Southern that have SDO to go to SE allowing 12 car and in return some 465/466 go over for the duration to run on southern lines that do not have 12 car but use 377s?

More could go for DLR to Woolwich but isn't that also extremely busy now? Plus that option costs a fair chunk more than a train from Cannon Street.

I see the % that they hope will alter travel as too ambitious to achieve without some pretty severe consequences. This could all have been avoided if SE could have run 12 car trains with SDO. Was there ever any real plans for this?

 

[21C101]

Due to London Bridge rebuilding and seeming lack of planning there's some big capacity cuts coming from January. The line through Greenwich is seeing a third of trains cut and around 20-25% of passenger capacity cut at the busiest evening peak time.

I'm wondering what the effects will be and how quickly extra stock could be received to deal with it? The plan for 377/1 is way too far off and will arrive just before Crossrail is opening and London bridge is completing when the need is diminished.

Basic story is that less trains can run which is fair enough with all the work. Problem is that the remaining trains that do run on the Greenwich line can't be 12 car despite years of work on platforms and power upgrades as 1) SE lack stock 2) Woolwich Dockyard has only 10 car platforms and work not done there, and no trains with SDO have been cascaded to SE. The delayed 700 ordering played a part here I suppose in not freeing up 377s.

The 20-25% of lost passenger capacity has to go somewhere. Its not like the Olympics with travel changes needed for 2 weeks at the quietest period. Most of the lost % are supposed to go via Lewisham and DLR instead, but isn't Lewisham already packed, and can trains on other lines heading between London terminals & Lewisham take many extra using it? Even then, this option is of limited use to most on the line.

Would it have been possible for some 377s with Southern that have SDO to go to SE allowing 12 car and in return some 465/466 go over for the duration to run on southern lines that do not have 12 car but use 377s?

More could go for DLR to Woolwich but isn't that also extremely busy now? Plus that option costs a fair chunk more than a train from Cannon Street.

I see the % that they hope will alter travel as too ambitious to achieve without some pretty severe consequences. This could all have been avoided if SE could have run 12 car trains with SDO. Was there ever any real plans for this?

If the peak time services have been cut then it would follow that there is extra stock for 12 car services. 12 car trains could just omit a call at Woolwich Dockyard.

But isn't Dartford still only 10 car. The tracks were realigned to allow 12 cars a decade or so ago when it was resignalled but I don;t think the platforms exist.

Nothing to stop a few 12 car circulars around the Slade Green loops though.

 

[SF-02]

I thought Dartford was ok but not 100% on that. Skipping Woolwich Dockyard for at least some trains in the evening peak would make sense to me, and I'm unsure why they've not done it. It would give higher capacity for everyone else and is the least used station on the line. Also very close to Woolwich Arsenal.

 

[Busaholic]

Apologies for dragging buses into this, but I think it has some relevance to this thread. TfL at very short notice have introduced additional short-working journeys on bus route 472 between Charlton Station and North Greenwich Station during the morning peak, at 10 minute intervals. Given that these buses disobey two central tenets of current TfL bus practice i.e. buses should cover the whole of the route and not deviate from the normal route (and Charlton Station is off line of route) this must show that at least TfL are planning ahead and seeing many passengers availing themselves of Jubilee Line services to London Bridge, Waterloo and beyond as an alternative to less-frequent and therefore more-packed Southeastern services, even though the extra bus journey will see people paying more for the inconvenience. I suspect the morning 'extras' may soon materialise in the evening peak as well and other extra buses will run in the Greenwich area, including on the 177 and 188. There might even be a return to 177Xs, an 'express' version which existed some years ago.

 

[SF-02]

Yes that does seem to suggest a spike is expected, and a rather last minute adjustment. Can the Jubilee take much more let alone before we think of new builds on the Peninsula?

There's a huge number of flats being built all along the Greenwich line. Even with no cuts occurring pressure on southeastern capacity would be squeezed. Add in the cuts and pressure is heightened so some forced onto Jubilee and DLR. They are then fighting with the thousands moving onto the peninsula from 2015 as the many new developments complete.

 

[cle]

Utilitarianism - close or limit service at Woolwich Dockyard.

Could they not send some trains via Blackheath to Victoria - as for the Dome (Vic - Plumstead terminators) ? Those are all 8 car though, unless they don't stop before Lewisham.

 

[SF-02]

I'd imagine Victoria trains would cause a fair few problems at Lewisham?

Woolwich Dockyard, like almost all other stations along the line, has large scale housing plans. Unlike most others though they won't be ready until 2016 at the earliest so it could see reduced service for a couple of years.

 

[Bald Rick]

Due to London Bridge rebuilding and seeming lack of planning there's some big capacity cuts coming from January.

When you say 'lack of planning' do you mean that, or perhaps instead 'after three years of planning, consulting, planning again, checking every possible option and tweaking the plan, it isn't to my liking and I think I could do better?'

 

[SF-02]

So the plan was always for 20% capacity cuts in the evening rush hour and no 12 car running, despite millions spent on platform lengthening and power upgrades?

Yes the planning should have been better by NR, DfT and SE. The work at London Bridge is badly needed yet capacity should be at a greater level than is now planned when train paths reduce. There have been years to get 12 car running on the Greenwich line by January 2015, as it was known paths would be reduced. It hasn't happened and we have large peak time cuts at the busiest time of day. If that isn't bad planning what is?

Why no internal refurbs and changes to 465/6 to increase capacity i.e 2x2 seating, more space around doors over the past 5 years?

Why no SDO fitted to them?

Why no procuring of stock with SDO to run 12 car if not possible?

What about 6 car 376s? 5 is apparently the limit on existing software but new software or reforming as 4 car?

It seems little has been done when there was a multitude of options, and very recently it has occurred to southeastern etc we have 20% capacity cuts on a line that is seeing large scale population growth and mass housebuilding along it. The confused and contrasting responses southeastern have given the past year over capacity and train lengths, and short term action such as TfL putting on shuttle buses, seem to bear this out.

 

[Bald Rick]

The confused and contrasting responses southeastern have given the past year over capacity and train lengths

That's not bad planning, but bad communication. I can't comment further.

 

[SF-02]

Aye their comunication has not been clear or consistent.

I'm not blaming SE for much of the problem though. NR and the DfT are a big part of it for perhaps not foreseeing the capacity issue we now face, and thinking of how 12 car trains will be capable of stopping at 10 car stops.

NR even extended Westcombe Park and I think Maze Hill for 12 car only last year. Or maybe the plan was always to skip Woolwich Dockyard which has now been postponed. So perhaps NR feel they've done all they could with extensions and the DfT just havn't been quick enough with stock alterations - either ordering enough new stock the past few years, dealing with 700 delays, or funding internal refurbishments to increase capacity.

All concerned probably havn't been looking closely enough at the mass housebuilding going on and completions now happening.

Whoever made the decisions along the way, well we are where we are. I have doubts 20% + of current passengers can make alternatives from January (ignoring new passengers). Going to London and changing at Lewisham will be tricky. Lewisham's passenger numbers are up 10% alone the past year. 1000s of new homes are going up around it, and then adding on up to 20% of the Greenwich line will be tricky.

Coming back there's no point in going via Lewisham if heading past Greenwich. You'd probably have more luck barging on at Cannon Street or London Bridge than going Lewisham, then getting DLR to Greenwich, then boarding a packed Greenwich train. Some users of Greenwich and Deptford will not need to take another train as a DLR to Greenwich or Deptford Bridge will suffice, but not enough I fear.

 

[ComUtoR]

I thought Dartford was ok but not 100% on that.

Dartford is 12-Car.

I'm pretty sure that everything past Dartford is now 12 (except Woolwich Dockyard)

Vic's are limited to 8-Car because they go via the Catford Loop and that is 8-Car max (Nunhead, Peckham Rye, Denmark Hill) Victoria is also restricted by platform length and would need a reshuffle to accommodate 12-Car Dartford services.

 

[Metobusfan]

I heard some of the Dartford are going into blackfriars. It that true

 

[SF-02]

I don't think that's happening except perhaps during engineering work.

Isn't there still an issue with 12 cars at Charing X?

The networkers really could have done with having SDO fitted over the past few years. Woolwich Dockyard won't be sorted out for many years, if ever, and class 376s will likely now never be able to be extended to 6 cars.