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Hi I have been today caught by southeastern doing short ticketing have done this regularly. With paper tickets but also e tickets. I know they will go away and assess this with my online account. This was between zone 8 and zone 1. I was purchasing zone 2-1 singles.
I don’t want to go to court so hoping to settle outside of court but wondering what the amount would be. The office mentioned they do their write up and then usually write to you in a few weeks likely asking for more information or state they will prosecute but didn’t know the full process. Would be interested to know the process most have seen here.
You will have to wait for them to write to you, but they will likely be wanting the full fare from Swanley to London for each of the journeys you made without the proper ticket, plus a few hundred pounds in admin fees. Southeastern almost always settle out of court If you cooperate.
Hi I have been today caught by southeastern doing short ticketing have done this regularly. With paper tickets but also e tickets. I know they will go away and assess this with my online account. This was between zone 8 and zone 1. I was purchasing zone 2-1 singles.
I don’t want to go to court so hoping to settle outside of court but wondering what the amount would be. The office mentioned they do their write up and then usually write to you in a few weeks likely asking for more information or state they will prosecute but didn’t know the full process. Would be interested to know the process most have seen here.
Hi - have a look at some other Southeastern threads.
They will tend to want the Anytime Single Fare for each one way journey they detect you have taken between the 2 named stations you start and end at (so not off peak or contactless zone fares etc) - if you name the stations it is easy to look this up or you can do so yourself on
Purchase flexible single/return tickets & Travelcards – in 3 clicks. Full details of all British rail fares shown, with built-in Season Ticket Calculator.
www.brfares.com
Plus an admin fee for their costs of dealing with you. circa £150 maybe
This is if they agree not to prosecute you in court (that results in higher fines and court costs plus a criminal record so is generally best avoided as you appreciate)
So it should only be on the single e-tickets they will be able to source from my account as that is only the pure evidence they have, a lesson learnt i suppose and gladly pay up but are there instances where they do likely take you to court, or is that usually for individuals doing large season ticket frauds? Preference is to avoid court given the overall costs rise and i would be pleading guilty to the act anyway, hoping this isnt something that appears on my record as i am seeing differing views that it appears on DBS and you have to declare to your employer etc.
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You will have to wait for them to write to you, but they will likely be wanting the full fare from Swanley to London for each of the journeys you made without the proper ticket, plus a few hundred pounds in admin fees. Southeastern almost always settle out of court If you cooperate.
would they only take to court when its season ticket fraud and numbers can be very high? i am not in the office every day and this hasnt been done every day just on some single e-ticket journeys and i have used oyster for the return or short ticketed a paper ticket, which i am sure they cannot track but could they ask for more evidence on return journeys etc. I am trying to avoid being in some long exchange and hope its just acknowledgment and fine. the e-ticket journeys will easily rack up to about 120
would they only take to court when its season ticket fraud and numbers can be very high? i am not in the office every day and this hasnt been done every day just on some single e-ticket journeys and i have used oyster for the return or short ticketed a paper ticket, which i am sure they cannot track but could they ask for more evidence on return journeys etc. I am trying to avoid being in some long exchange and hope its just acknowledgment and fine. the e-ticket journeys will easily rack up to about 120
They have offered out of course settlements in the past for over £30,000. I have every confidence that you will not be taken to court if you cooperate.
They will likely look at all the journeys in your account and want to be paid for them where they don’t match the journey they think you made.
So it should only be on the single e-tickets they will be able to source from my account as that is only the pure evidence they have, a lesson learnt i suppose and gladly pay up but are there instances where they do likely take you to court, or is that usually for individuals doing large season ticket frauds? Preference is to avoid court given the overall costs rise and i would be pleading guilty to the act anyway, hoping this isnt something that appears on my record as i am seeing differing views that it appears on DBS and you have to declare to your employer etc.
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would they only take to court when its season ticket fraud and numbers can be very high? i am not in the office every day and this hasnt been done every day just on some single e-ticket journeys and i have used oyster for the return or short ticketed a paper ticket, which i am sure they cannot track but could they ask for more evidence on return journeys etc. I am trying to avoid being in some long exchange and hope its just acknowledgment and fine. the e-ticket journeys will easily rack up to about 120
as @island says the key is to co-operate with them - it does not seem to be the sum involved. cases end up in court for one off small sums of evaded or mistaken ticket fares (less that £5 even) but where the person concerned has not responded to their letters or ignored things and hoped it would go away / put head in sand / thought 'they would never take me to court for this'.
They have offered out of course settlements in the past for over £30,000. I have every confidence that you will not be taken to court if you cooperate.
They will likely look at all the journeys in your account and want to be paid for them where they don’t match the journey they think you made.
Thanks some of this is reassuring, the value shouldnt be that much at all.
the tickets on my SE account are for the e-tickets only, i have made most journeys using paper tickets bought at a machine (not account linked) or oyster which i expect would be visible, would they ask for me to send across oyster journey history as i wouldnt have an issue with that. My fear is they make assumptions on return journeys where there is no evidence available inflating the fine.
It would be a combination of Oyster, paper ticket or contactless card, there would be some history on my oyster account but there wont be a full picture of each return.
It would be a combination of Oyster, paper ticket or contactless card, there would be some history on my oyster account but there wont be a full picture of each return.
Paper ticket they will not have access only electronic tickets.
If you can prove with paper tickets or bank statement's for the dates you have a return/single back then keep that as evidence.
It would be a combination of Oyster, paper ticket or contactless card, there would be some history on my oyster account but there wont be a full picture of each return.
Normal people do not randomly rotate between Oyster, paper tickets, and contactless cards for regular journeys. They use one method and stick to it.
If you plan to maintain this part of your story it is strongly advisable that you pull together whatever evidence you can, such as receipts, bank statements etc. that show these purchases.
Paper ticket they will not have access only electronic tickets.
If you can prove with paper tickets or bank statement's for the dates you have a return/single back then keep that as evidence.
wouldnt have been many paper tickets but mainly oyster and contactless card, it wont help that one of the cards i used i closed a couple of months ago and i may not have statements for that anymore. do they take this much of a deepdive when reaching out.
They have offered out of course settlements in the past for over £30,000. I have every confidence that you will not be taken to court if you cooperate.
They will likely look at all the journeys in your account and want to be paid for them where they don’t match the journey they think you made.
They are not 'reaching out' - they are seeking to get back the maximum amount of money they think has been evaded and if you decline to pay it they will prosecute you on the evidence they have for the one journey - that's all they need. As far as they are concerned you have been stealing from them and they caught you red handed.
They typically seem to send a spreadsheet of journeys they have identified and seek evidence that they were legitimate examples of the full journey and some payment proof from you.
Unless you can poove the payment you are not in a strong position to debate it with them I fear.
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its a typo for an 'out of court settlement' - some people will want to pay a lot of money not to be prosecuted and loose their entire career - eg if their annual salary alone if more than £30k losing your job that you may expect to earn £50K + a year for another 10 years say will be worth paying £30k for.
Of course courts don't do settlements they do punishments.
It's an out of court settlement, not a court settlement.
Out of court settlements can be for whatever sum the parties agree on, subject to any relevant rules on unconscionable bargains. The settlement I am thinking of was that of Jonathan Burrows, a Southeastern passenger who worked in finance and evaded the fare for several years. He paid around £43,000.
(He did not save his job as he wound up getting struck off by the Financial Conduct Authority.)
They are not 'reaching out' - they are seeking to get back the maximum amount of money they think has been evaded and if you decline to pay it they will prosecute you on the evidence they have for the one journey - that's all they need. As far as they are concerned you have been stealing from them and they caught you red handed.
They typically seem to send a spreadsheet of journeys they have identified and seek evidence that they were legitimate examples of the full journey and some payment proof from you.
Unless you can poove the payment you are not in a strong position to debate it with them I fear.
Completely understand thanks, looks like it will be heavy exercise and i may come up short on many of the return journeys evidence, i will have some identifiable on oyster. I suspect this could be quite a high fine.
Completely understand thanks, looks like it will be heavy exercise and i may come up short on many of the return journeys evidence, i will have some identifiable on oyster. I suspect this could be quite a high fine.
well of course it's not a fine, it's paying what you should have paid in the first place, like the other passengers who paid because paying for things you use that you are supposed to pay for is the right thing to do...
I say this because that is what you need to convince them you understand that and will do in future.
Edit - here's an example of a case that you might find helpful in looking over as it has an example of a letter sent from the railway and what happened next and you can work out the timeline from the dates of the posts too. There are other example if you search the forum.
Hi all, I wondered if you can help me with drafting a response letter to Southeastern. I was caught short faring earlier this month and have now received their letter. Having looked through some of the posts on the forum I have drafted a response with the advice I found on some of the threads...
well of course it's not a fine, it's paying what you should have paid in the first place, like the other passengers who paid because paying for things you use that you are supposed to pay for is the right thing to do...
I say this because that is what you need to convince them you understand that and will do in future.
Edit - here's an example of a case that you might find helpful in looking over as it has an example of a letter sent from the railway and what happened next and you can work out the timeline from the dates of the posts too. There are other example if you search the forum.
Hi all, I wondered if you can help me with drafting a response letter to Southeastern. I was caught short faring earlier this month and have now received their letter. Having looked through some of the posts on the forum I have drafted a response with the advice I found on some of the threads...
Very helpful, and i only have myself to blame, I shall see what i receive and will reach out should i need any more advice. Appreciate the help from all on here, its very easy to judge these days and pleasantly surprised how helpful strangers can be.
Very helpful, and i only have myself to blame, I shall see what i receive and will reach out should i need any more advice. Appreciate the help from all on here, its very easy to judge these days and pleasantly surprised how helpful strangers can be.
I suggest you search for posts on this forum by @Hadders who has some helpful suggestions. You could also look at the thread already linked
It's a standard letter - the main thing is to reply apologetically and honestly, without incriminating yourself. But you must reckon that SE may pursue your previous instances of cheating.
My use of e tickets and paper tickets frequently over the past year has been regular and I have now been caught. I’m open to being honest and paying my fair share but not sure the best response and the level of their investigations. Would I offer a nominal amount in any reply with apologies? Since being caught I’ve just used my oyster and would be happy to send evidence on an ongoing basis of this. Any help is appreciated as I’d like to respond in the next couple days.
My use of e tickets and paper tickets frequently over the past year has been regular and I have now been caught. I’m open to being honest and paying my fair share but not sure the best response and the level of their investigations. Would I offer a nominal amount in any reply with apologies? Since being caught I’ve just used my oyster and would be happy to send evidence on an ongoing basis of this. Any help is appreciated as I’d like to respond in the next couple days.
You don’t offer any sum. You need to ask them if they ‘will kindly consider settling the matter without court action and allowing me to pay any outstanding fares owed’ then you wait for the sum they ask for.
If you don’t like that sum it’s going to court. I don’t want to sound brutal but you are over a barrel. The choice is pay what they ask or criminal record and court fine (usually more than they will ask for in a settlement if that eases your mind).
Have a go at drafting a reply for people to check here before you send. Lots of examples of the approach to take on other threads if you have a look.
This is the standard letter Southeastern send in this sort of case. I suggest a short, concise reply that mentions the following points:
- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter
You will find lots of examples of letters in other threads in this section of the forum that you can use as a template.
If you post a draft copy of your reply in this thread forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.
This is the standard letter Southeastern send in this sort of case. I suggest a short, concise reply that mentions the following points:
- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter
You will find lots of examples of letters in other threads in this section of the forum that you can use as a template.
If you post a draft copy of your reply in this thread forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.
I am writing to sincerely apologize for not holding a valid ticket from "home station" to London Bridge on 31 October 2024. I deeply regret my error in judgment and acknowledge that my actions were both improper and inexcusable. I am aware that this incident may have caused your company unnecessary financial and administrative strain, and I fully understand the importance of adhering to fare policies for the benefit of all passengers.
Upon reflection, this experience has taught me a valuable lesson about the importance of respecting the rules and procedures that help your services run smoothly. I take full responsibility for my actions, and I am committed to ensuring they will not be repeated.
In view of the above, I am hopeful that we might be able to resolve this matter amicably, without the need for court proceedings. I am more than willing to cover any outstanding fare after your investigation, along with any administrative costs incurred by your team in handling this matter. I trust that my sincere desire to address the situation fairly and responsibly will be taken into account.
Thank you very much for considering my request, and I assure you of my respect for your service and policies moving forward.
Best regards,
[Your Name]
[Your Contact Information]
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I am sure their investigation may uncover other short tickets on my online account, i assume its best not to incriminate further and the above is sufficient.
Maybe it's just me, but that response seems just way too OTT and borderline AI generated. My *opinion* is that you need to scrap this, start over, and write something that is much more sincere. Some specific points:
- What you're willing to pay is irrelevant; you'll pay what they offer you, or it'll end up in court. So I would suggest something along the lines of "I would like to offer to cover the outstanding fare and SouthEastern's costs in dealing with this matter." Or if you'd prefer a more open-ended approach, "I would like to offer to cover whatever sum SouthEastern proposes to resolve this matter.
- "Best regards" is inappropriate; you're not writing to a friend or acquaintance. Their last letter was signed off "On behalf of the Prosecutions Manager". Therefore your letter should be addressed to the Prosecutions Manager, and, as you do not know their name, you would sign it off as "Yours faithfully".
Maybe it's just me, but that response seems just way too OTT and borderline AI generated. My *opinion* is that you need to scrap this, start over, and write something that is much more sincere. Some specific points:
- What you're willing to pay is irrelevant; you'll pay what they offer you, or it'll end up in court. So I would suggest something along the lines of "I would like to offer to cover the outstanding fare and SouthEastern's costs in dealing with this matter." Or if you'd prefer a more open-ended approach, "I would like to offer to cover whatever sum SouthEastern proposes to resolve this matter.
- "Best regards" is inappropriate; you're not writing to a friend or acquaintance. Their last letter was signed off "On behalf of the Prosecutions Manager". Therefore your letter should be addressed to the Prosecutions Manager, and, as you do not know their name, you would sign it off as "Yours faithfully".
I'm writing to apologize for not having a valid ticket from [home station] to London Bridge on 31 October 2024. I understand it was a mistake on my part, and I regret any trouble this may have caused for Southeastern Railway.
This experience has made me more aware of how important it is to follow fare rules to keep things fair for everyone. I take full responsibility for my actions and will make sure it doesn’t happen again.
I’d like to offer to cover the fare I owe, along with any costs that may have come up because of this issue. Thank you for considering my request, and again, I’m sorry for any inconvenience I caused.
The last paragraph needs to be very much phrased as a very polite ask if Southeastern would agree to it, rather than prosecute you, rather than just something you would like to do.
The last paragraph needs to be very much phrased as a very polite ask if Southeastern would agree to it, rather than prosecute you, rather than just something you would like to do.
I'm writing to apologize for traveling without a valid ticket from [home station] to London Bridge on 31 October 2024. I realize this was a serious oversight on my part, and I’m truly sorry for any inconvenience caused to Southeastern Railway.
This experience has made me more aware of how important it is to follow fare policies to keep things fair for all passengers. I take full responsibility for my actions, and I’m committed to making sure this doesn’t happen again.
I would be very grateful for the chance to settle this matter without it going to court. I’m more than willing to cover the fare I owe, along with any costs Southeastern has incurred in dealing with this situation. I hope you will consider my request, and thank you for your understanding.
We are aware of an issue with emails from the Forum to Microsoft-based email accounts (hotmail/outlook/live.com email addresses). This is being looked into currently, thanks for your patience meanwhile.
