Southeastern - Lies, damn lies. and statistics?

[Old Timer]

I contacted the DfT a few months ago on this issue, and they told me, quoting chapter and verse from various Regulations, that the law applied to all airlines on all flights departing from the EU, including those airlines registered outside the EU. The law itself contains a clause stating that it may not be waived by mutual agreement......

Then I suggest you contact the DfT again because they have given wrong advice.

EU "Law" in terms of compensation is over and above that agreed Internationally under the Montreal Convention and it cannot unilaterally apply that requirement to non-EU registered airlines. EU "Law" has no legitimacy outside the EU, as only National Law (which occasionally mirrors EU "Law" - Greece for example has legal standards considerably lower than the EU requires) is accepted internationally.

IATA sets the International rules by which airlines operate, including those from the EU.

If you care to click on the link within the webpage you actually posted a link to itself, it clearly states this, so I am somewhat surprised at your continued argument.

...If non-EU airlines don't like the law, they are free not to come here....

Any contractual terms to the contrary are automatically null and void.

The EU cannot unilaterally impose this. I should be taking some action against them myself were this illegal act to happen.

Again a quote from the link you gave.

This right to compensate for flights delayed more than three hours is not set out specifically in Regulation EC261/2004, but follows a European Court of Justice ruling on the Regulation on 19 November 2009.

However, the Administrative Court of the High Court of Justice in the UK has recently ordered, on the application of a number of airlines, that questions relating to the November 2009 ruling be referred to the Court of Justice of the European Union. In doing so, it placed a “stay” on further court proceedings in the UK whose aim would be to try to make airlines pay compensation in line with the ruling. The stay will remain in place until the CJEU has ruled on the questions referred by the Administrative Court.

In the meantime, airlines cannot be compelled in the UK to pay compensation for delays.

For the avoidance of doubt, I travelled in excess of some 100,000 miles long-haul outside of the EU during 2010, so I think I have a little experience from which to speak.

 

[WestCoast]

Ryanair initially refused to pay expenses under their so called "extraordinary circumstances" clause which as ever was set out in their labyrinth of terms and conditions. But this was voided by the regulators who told them they had to pay and they obviously weren't happy but I am sure they were aware of the EU conditions.

 

[Magicake]

In the meantime, airlines cannot be compelled in the UK to pay compensation for delays.

But as he said above he's not talking about compensation - rather hotel, meal costs etc incurred.

The EU cannot unilaterally impose this. I should be taking some action against them myself were this illegal act to happen.

Can you explain why they can not impose this? I would have thought that if the EU passed regulation that all airlines had to pay compensation or else not be allowed to operate within the EU then that is up to them. I can't see why this is any different from a company having to operate under national laws if they operate within a country but are registered elsewhere.

 

[jkdd77]

I am not legally qualified in any way, but the relevant EU law states:
http://ec.europa.eu/transport/air_portal/passenger_rights/doc/2008/q_and_a_en.pdf
Article 3: Scope
1. This Regulation shall apply:
(a) to passengers departing from an airport located in the territory of a Member State to which the Treaty applies;
(b) to passengers departing from an airport located in a third country to an airport situated in the territory of a Member State to which the Treaty applies, unless they received benefits or compensation and were given assistance in that third country, if the operating air carrier of the flight concerned is a Community carrier

Question 3: Do passengers flying to the EU from a third country who have already received compensation and/or assistance at the point of departure lose their rights under the provision of the Regulation?

A:The Regulation does not apply to non-EU air carriers' flights into the EU.
The Regulation applies to operating air carriers licensed in a Member State of the EU (Community carrier) flying from outside the EU into the EU and to passengers (including non-EU citizens) using such flights.
However, these passengers are not entitled to the provisions of the Regulation where benefits or compensation and assistance are given on the basis of local regulations in non-EU countries.

The legislation of the third country always needs to be respected.
If such local legislation does not exist in a third (non-EU) country, the Regulation will apply in full."

As far as I can tell from my Google search, all claims for compensation for delays against airlines have indeed been put on hold indefinitely pending a final ruling by the ECJ on the essential question of whether Community law takes precedence over international law; no judgment has yet been made, and is unlikely to be made until at least 2012.

In the meantime, it is impossible to give definitive advice either way. In the event that the ECJ rules in favour of the passengers, then airlines will indeed have to pay compensation for delays.

 

[Wolfie]

From South African Airways ticket terms and conditions
From the Aeroflot website
From the TAM (Brazillian) Airline website
From the Air New Zealand website
None of these offer compensation for delays above that IATA agreement.

Compensation only applies to Airlines registered within the EU.

WRONG!

Try looking at www.Flightmole.com before posting something that is demonstrably wrong!

The EU rules apply to EU registered airlines operating flights either into or out of the EU and non-EU airlines operating flights out of the EU (ie with an EU departure point).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Then I suggest you contact the DfT again because they have given wrong advice.

EU "Law" in terms of compensation is over and above that agreed Internationally under the Montreal Convention and it cannot unilaterally apply that requirement to non-EU registered airlines. EU "Law" has no legitimacy outside the EU, as only National Law (which occasionally mirrors EU "Law" - Greece for example has legal standards considerably lower than the EU requires) is accepted internationally.

IATA sets the International rules by which airlines operate, including those from the EU.

If you care to click on the link within the webpage you actually posted a link to itself, it clearly states this, so I am somewhat surprised at your continued argument.

The EU cannot unilaterally impose this. I should be taking some action against them myself were this illegal act to happen.

Again a quote from the link you gave.




For the avoidance of doubt, I travelled in excess of some 100,000 miles long-haul outside of the EU during 2010, so I think I have a little experience from which to speak.

Again WRONG!

The UK Courts have referred the matter to Europe and are due a kicking from the European Courts....

The European Courts have ALREADY considered cases from Germany, Italy, Austria and an number of other EU nations and have, in every case, ordered payments to be made.

Your arguements over the scope of EU legislation are flawed in extremis - by yoiuyr rational any EU airline flying into the US would have no obligation to meet US national laws re security etc - nuff said!

 

[wintonian]

It seems people here are not the only ones s little suspicious of Southeasterns figures:

Three MPs are demanding that train operator Southeastern re-examines its punctuality figures after it narrowly met its requirement for 2010.

MPs call for recount on train punctuality figures