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SouthEastern - Lack of working toilets on trains

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Moriarty01

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A common occurance on the SouthEastern twitter feed for the last couple of months is a message from SouthEastern saying that there are issues with the toilets on their trains and they are trying to get them fixed.

Does anyone in here know that the problems are? Is it affecting their whole fleet of trains or only some classes of their rolling stock? And how long will this problem persist?

Thanks!

Andy
 
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yorksrob

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Last time I travelled on South Eastern, all the toilets were out of use. I assume not having staff/infrastructure in place to empty them is the issue.
 
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If you ask their Twitter, they'll point you to something like this:
We have recently identified some health and safety issues with our facilities for emptying train toilet tanks and refilling water tanks.

The more precise reason I was given by another member of staff was that a cleaner was rather tragically juiced by the 750v whilst working on the sidings. As a result, there are currently very limited opportunities to empty the septic tanks and/or replenish the "clean" water tanks.

At some point over the past few years, SE seem to have stopped doing this during the 15-minute turnaround time at Victoria Station - this may well be something they will have to start doing again, as it seems to be a safer way of keeping the toilets in service vs trying to do this in the sidings. They might've given up on this, because the turnaround at Charing Cross can now be as short as 6 minutes.

So yes, there is an ongoing issue wherein there are limited opportunities to keep the toilets serviced. As of yet, there doesn't seem to be an answer as to when a solution will be found.
 

yorksrob

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At some point over the past few years, SE seem to have stopped doing this during the 15-minute turnaround time at Victoria Station - this may well be something they will have to start doing again, as it seems to be a safer way of keeping the toilets in service vs trying to do this in the sidings. They might've given up on this, because the turnaround at Charing Cross can now be as short as 6 minutes.
.

I doubt very much that there were ever emptying facilities within the London terminals.

In the past, with dropper toilets, cistern tanks were filled up in some terminals, but I'm guessing that would have depended on the turnaround times.
 

alistairlees

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The more precise reason I was given by another member of staff was that a cleaner was rather tragically juiced by the 750v whilst working on the sidings. As a result, there are currently very limited opportunities to empty the septic tanks and/or replenish the "clean" water tanks.

Here is the story: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-wettons-fined-36m-cleaners-death-roger-lower

Southeastern railway and its cleaning firm have been fined a total of £3.6m for the death of a cleaner who was electrocuted by a live rail.

Roger Lower, 46, fell on to the 750-volt rail during a night shift cleaning trains at one of Southeastern’s Sussex depots, where equipment designed to protect workers was found not to be in use.

The father of two from Hastings was found by colleagues lying on the rail. Emergency services were called but were unable to save him....
 
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Bletchleyite

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So yes, there is an ongoing issue wherein there are limited opportunities to keep the toilets serviced. As of yet, there doesn't seem to be an answer as to when a solution will be found.

Is priority being given to finding one, or are they just doing the typical railway management thing of going "oh well" and sticking it way down the priority list?
 

kentman

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Is it in the Franchise contract to provide working on-train toilets? If it is, then what is the penalty if not? Then we get into the discussions of the merits of Concessions via Franchises contracts.
 

tsr

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Replenishing the water tanks is less likely to be an issue than CETs - water can usually be done without going anywhere near a third rail on 375s, and possibly other stock too. CETs require depot facilities for emptying, due to sanitary concerns, infrastructure and cosmetic/smell issues. Unfortunately, toilets with full or faulty CET systems become unusable very quickly.

Is priority being given to finding one, or are they just doing the typical railway management thing of going "oh well" and sticking it way down the priority list?

It's incredibly high on the priority list - more so in light of the Lewisham incident, too. Lots of agencies and organisations are putting pressure on them to do something about it.

Southeastern depot safety has also been compromised due to other factors which aren't yet fully in the public domain, but may emerge later *. There's certainly more to it than the prosecution which is mentioned above - toilet emptying situation seems to have dramatically worsened over the last couple of months, not directly in correlation with the reaction to the incident in the article.

* EDIT: It seems that Bromley boy has said almost exactly the same thing at the same time...
 

yorksrob

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It's worth remembering of course, that SET isn't the only TOC that uses third rail stock with CET's, so something must be going wrong there.
 
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Is it in the Franchise contract to provide working on-train toilets? If it is, then what is the penalty if not? Then we get into the discussions of the merits of Concessions via Franchises contracts.
This was indeed one of the conditions of the franchise extension - and this might just be from my perspective, but true to their word, the condition of the toilets on-board improved dramatically. They were in service, cleaner, and had working water. If they weren't working, there was usually a remark on departure screens indicating which toilets were unavailable.

...until this happened.
 

goblinuser

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Replenishing the water tanks is less likely to be an issue than CETs - water can usually be done without going anywhere near a third rail on 375s, and possibly other stock too. CETs require depot facilities for emptying, due to sanitary concerns, infrastructure and cosmetic/smell issues. Unfortunately, toilets with full or faulty CET systems become unusable very quickly.



It's incredibly high on the priority list - more so in light of the Lewisham incident, too. Lots of agencies and organisations are putting pressure on them to do something about it.

Southeastern depot safety has also been compromised due to other factors which aren't yet fully in the public domain, but may emerge later *. There's certainly more to it than the prosecution which is mentioned above - toilet emptying situation seems to have dramatically worsened over the last couple of months, not directly in correlation with the reaction to the incident in the article.

* EDIT: It seems that Bromley boy has said almost exactly the same thing at the same time...

So how did Southeastern used to empty the toilets on Victoria station with a large hose pipe?
 

TUC

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Is it in the Franchise contract to provide working on-train toilets? If it is, then what is the penalty if not? Then we get into the discussions of the merits of Concessions via Franchises contracts.
No, we get into basic customer care, something that other businesses seem to get without penalties or contractual requirements.
 

PeterY

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On the rare times I travel on South Eastern, I make sure I "go" before boarding. 8-)
 

tsr

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So how did Southeastern used to empty the toilets on Victoria station with a large hose pipe?

As far as I am aware, this has not been done with their current fleet. I'm not aware of any CET waste storage at Victoria, although certain bits of it smell bad enough!

Hoses are regularly used to fill toilet water tanks on stations, including at Victoria - which could lead to some confusion, not least because it can appear to be attached to the bottom of the toilet module.
 

Bromley boy

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So how did Southeastern used to empty the toilets on Victoria station with a large hose pipe?

When you say at Victoria do you mean in Grosvenor carriage shed? This certainly has CET emptying equipment, although I’m not sure how often it’s actually used.

The sheds seem to be in use purely as carriage sidings at the moment.
 
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KingJ

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Unfortunately, this is something that affects me quite a bit. Ever since this started in late November, it's been a bit of a gamble as to if i'll be able to access a toilet onboard when the need arises. Unfortunately, said need can come up rather suddenly and require urgent attention - as much as go before you travel is sound advice, there's a significant group of people who reply upon functional onboard facilities. With long journeys, large distances between stations and limited station facility opening hours on the mainline routes this indeed poses a significant issue. It's a bit difficult to 'hold it' when the next station is 20 minutes away, and you're not even sure if the station will have open or functional facilities.

There's two parts to this too - both having functional facilities onboard and at stations, but also timely information as to what trains have working facilities and where on the train. It's not much use finding out that the only working toilet is in Coach 2 if i'm in Coach 12 during the peak after all - it's not particularly easy to move through, especially on a busy peak time 375/9. Alas, whilst some guards are pretty good at announcing as to the location of working facilities, some aren't. For example, the guard I asked last night alas didn't even know at all - which if they genuinely didn't know (and I don't doubt that) is fair enough on their part, but again it's problematic for passengers and shows again how SouthEastern are struggling to disseminate this information both to staff and passengers. Additionally, it seems incredibly rare for information on toilet availability to be either put on the train facilities updates section of SouthEastern's site, on social media, or on Departure Boards. I occasionally see information about toilet availability on departure boards outside of London, but never at any of the SouthEastern London termini.

I've tried my best to raise both parts with SouthEastern over the last few months, but to no avail. I've tried via Customer Services, i've tried a formal complaint and i've tried an escalation of that formal complaint, but alas all I received back was that my comments would be "passed on" and sympathies. No information as to when it might be resolved, no alternative arrangements, no updates after their initial reply despite promising to do so. So with the issue still ongoing, affecting me and others severely, and with no end in sight i've now had to take it up to Transport Focus. It's not really a step I want to have to have taken (and indeed i've never ever had to do this before!) but i've been left feeling utterly hopeless having gone through all of the formal procedures of talking to customer services, complaints, complaint escalations etc before taking it up to Transport Focus.

Earlier today, I did see via another person share via social media SouthEastern's response to their more recent complaint, saying that modifications to CET emptying facilities at the depots has now been complete in all depots with the exception of Gillingham. This does line up with my experiences of the 465/466 fleet being more affected by this (certainly I can't remember I last saw a working toilet on a 465/466!), but the 375 fleet is still very much affected by this as of this week which isn't exactly inspiring confidence about this issue being fixed in the long run :frown:.
 

theironroad

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So instead of just using the safety equipment they are supposed to be using (and they were fined for not using it), they remove facilities for passengers. Nice one, SE.

When you say 'they' I hope you are talking about south eastern and Wettons rather than individual cleaners, because as the article points out the cleaners had not been trained in using the protection boards despite them being available.
 

farleigh

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This really is a poor show by Southeastern as the least they could do is be open and honest with people about the reasons for this - frankly unacceptable - situation.
 

SPADTrap

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There does need to be better provison for dealing with CET (Controlled emission Toilets) across the board. I gave my girlfriend a set of keys so if she needs to she can access any locked toilet.
 

theageofthetra

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There does need to be better provison for dealing with CET (Controlled emission Toilets) across the board. I gave my girlfriend a set of keys so if she needs to she can access any locked toilet.
Hope she doesn't find a floor missing then....
 

Moriarty01

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Seems like there has now been enough interest in the issue for it to be picked up by the local news:

https://www.kentlive.news/news/sout...?service=responsive&__twitter_impression=true

Commuters are raging against train company Southeastern because of an on-board toilet crisis which could last until the end of April.

Desperate passengers have wet themselves, been forced to pee in bottles, change their routes or even stay off work because so many of the loos are out-of-order.

On the busy Hastings to London service often all six toilets are out of use or locked, one commuter told Kent Live....
 
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Mikey C

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On my train back from Headcorn to London yesterday afternoon (8 car 375) there were no working toilets. They did apologise in advance...
 
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