Southeastern increased subsidy

[northwichcat]

What was the reason for Southeastern getting an increase in government subsidy between the 09/10 and 10/11 financial years while every other DfT franchised TOC had a decrease in subsidy?

Southeastern got 8.8 pence per passenger mile in the 10/11 year while they got 5.2 pence in the 09/10 year.

 

[WatcherZero]

I suggest you check to see if passenger numbers rose and/or more services were operated.

 

[Mike395]

What was the reason for Southeastern getting an increase in government subsidy between the 09/10 and 10/11 financial years while every other DfT franchised TOC had a decrease in subsidy?

Southeastern got 8.8 pence per passenger mile in the 10/11 year while they got 5.2 pence in the 09/10 year.

Almost entirely due to the introduction of domestic services on HS1

 

[northwichcat]

Almost entirely due to the introduction of domestic services on HS1

In that case I can see why SE have to charge extra for passengers to go by HS1, as considering how many passengers SE get that seems a huge increase in subsidy at a time when all other operators who get subsidies had them reduced.

 

[WatcherZero]

Remember it still costs more money to transport a passenger than the Toc earns in revenue, so more passengers means the government shells out more directly or has to fund extra carriages in service.

 

[87015]

How much did the actual subsidy increase by?
The passenger mile figure will be massively swayed by the huge increase in HS1 train miles carting around fresh air, so it doesn't say what the actual subsidy increase is.

 

[craigwilson]

How much did the actual subsidy increase by?
The passenger mile figure will be massively swayed by the huge increase in HS1 train miles carting around fresh air, so it doesn't say what the actual subsidy increase is.

On the Margate-St Pancras trains, even most of the off-peak ones I've been on in the middle of the day fill up gently at Ramsgate and are pretty well loaded after leaving Canterbury, so they definitely don't do that.

 

[paul1609]

How much did the actual subsidy increase by?
The passenger mile figure will be massively swayed by the huge increase in HS1 train miles carting around fresh air, so it doesn't say what the actual subsidy increase is.

Most peak departures from Ashford International towards St Pancras are now standing room only. Off peak are loading to 75-80%. This service will soon need extra stock.
Its only the North Kent Line services that are under performing.

 

[northwichcat]

How much did the actual subsidy increase by?

The official figures are all quoted as pence per passenger mile. However, The Times reported that in total it's an additional £80 million subsidy. I've also found out that the Southeastern franchise expected passenger numbers to increase by 10% but between the 09/10 and 10/11 year they fell by 2%, so that likely contributes to the increase in subsidy alongside HS1.

 

[Schnellzug]

The official figures are all quoted as pence per passenger mile. However, The Times reported that in total it's an additional £80 million subsidy. I've also found out that the Southeastern franchise expected passenger numbers to increase by 10% but between the 09/10 and 10/11 year they fell by 2%, so that likely contributes to the increase in subsidy alongside HS1.

Very interesting, seeing how passenegr levels on most other, non-commuter oriented routes have been increasing dramatically. Maybe this says something, not about the state of the Economy as a whole, but about London's future as a World City.


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is it the same picture for other commuter operators such as SWT, Southern & c.?

 

[mailman]

Almost entirely due to the introduction of domestic services on HS1

So if numbers go up, the subsidy goes up and if numbers go down, the subsidy goes up?

Did SE run at a over loss over this period or did they report a profit at the end of their financial year?

Regards

Mailman

 

[Greenback]

The franchising system is a wonderful thing. The DfT either writes unrealistic growth figures into them or allows for no growth at all. If a 10% rise is expected, but a 2% fall occurs, the franchisee is probably entitled to additional money under the terms of the agreement to stop them throwing the towel in.

 

[northwichcat]

So if numbers go up, the subsidy goes up and if numbers go down, the subsidy goes up?

I think it depends on the franchise. FGW are the other operator who I've heard has had a subsidy increase in recent years due to passenger numbers not meeting expected targets. A Stagecoach press release implied that SWT are to get a subsidy increase for the current financial year.

Northern and TPE have both had large total subsidy cuts as passenger numbers have exceeded targets by significant percentages. I don't know if an increase in passenger numbers for other franchises could result in a subsidy increase. However, saying that DfT have claimed Northern are getting extra money for the extra cascaded carriages but they are giving them one type of subsidy and taking away another so overall it's actually a cut in subsidy.

 

[Bungle73]

Its only the North Kent Line services that are under performing.

The trouble with those services is that the journey time into London isn't much better than the regular services into Victoria. Having said that though I've been using them much more than I thought I would when they were announced.

Any news on whether SE plan to make any changes to the service due to lack of passengers?

 

[mallard]

The trouble with those services is that the journey time into London isn't much better than the regular services into Victoria. Having said that though I've been using them much more than I thought I would when they were announced.

That's very true. For the peak-time extensions beyond Faversham there is no time advantage at all.

I like it because I travel from the East Midlands to Kent and thus changing at St. Pancras and Faversham is far more convenient than using the tube to Victoria.

 

[northwichcat]

Very interesting, seeing how passenegr levels on most other, non-commuter oriented routes have been increasing dramatically. Maybe this says something, not about the state of the Economy as a whole, but about London's future as a World City.

What stands out at present is the London transport system is preparing for the Olympics. However, issues are already starting to show with regards to public transport to MediaCity with no plans for improvements.

A TV audience of around 500 arriving/leaving at MediaCity currently causes carnage on Metrolink with the MediaCityUK stop also being used by most people accessing the Lowry and Imperial War Museum. Both the platform at MediaCity, the Cornbrook interchange and trams are too small to cope. I can't imagine how bad it will be when multiple programs are being filmed at once as well as thousands of workers going there. Cornbrook needs to be changed in to a larger rail/Metrolink interchange ASAP with through ticketing between Metrolink and rail via Cornbrook and Eccles introduced. Then there's the issue of more people on the rail services to Manchester and Salford to interchange to Metrolink/bus services.

 

[mole90]

Most peak departures from Ashford International towards St Pancras are now standing room only. Off peak are loading to 75-80%. This service will soon need extra stock.
Its only the North Kent Line services that are under performing.

Care to provide any figures for the 'under performing' NKL? I've commuted from Gravesend via HS1 since Dec '09 and the peak services have steadily got busier and busier.

So not only are SE able to increase fares above RPI and also charge a high-speed 'tax' but they end up with more subsidy too?! pfft.