Southeastern Congestion

[Economist]

What I have noticed quite a bit is that the trains through the London Bridge Southeastern platforms are suffering from congestion, both before January and after the recent work there has started. Plus the Southeastern "Metro" trains are massively overcrowded

I'm surprised that Southeastern don't change things around I bit, I've seen 465s operate in 12 car formations, so I'm surprised that all rush hour 465 formations are not operated in this way. I don't know if two 465s and two 466s would work due to the control signals to the motors being affected by electrical resistance (I think I read somewhere that some multiple units can only operate in groups of 3).

Regarding the 376s, if they added an extra carriage to each unit (similar to what the Overground are doing with the 378s) then they would have the capacity for most "Metro" trains to be 12 cars.

That way they can either have less frequent trains which are longer and reduce congestion, or they can have longer trains and lease extra sets to make use of the current line capacity.

I don't work on the railways but I was thinking things through and was wondering why (apart from cost) Southeastern wouldn't pursue this strategy.

 

[W230]

I don't work on the railways but I was thinking things through and was wondering why (apart from cost) Southeastern wouldn't pursue this strategy.

I think SET have some setup where there is no benefit from them actually lengthening their trains. I.e. - costs go up as you have more units in operation but you don't actually make any more money from the punters, those punters are just more likely to get a seat/not be crush loaded.

 

[hwl]

Every bit of stock they have available is in service so more 12 car means other services would have to be shortened.

465+465+466+466 is possible but is longer than 3x 465 so doesn't fit into the platforms at Charing Cross for example.

DfT need to approve SE getting any more stock from other operators.

SE will get some extra stock from southern in 2017 but they may be looking for more beyond that.

 

[blakey1152]

There is also an issue with getting 12 car trains to stop at Woolwich Dockyard as that station couldn't be extended to take 12 cars.

And I believe with the current stock used on the metro trains that they can't open up selected doors either.

And it would probably be a bit of a minefield trying to sort the timetable out so that no 12 car trains stopped at Woolwich Dockyard during the course of the day.

Blakey

 

[ScotGG]

Southeastern are using every unit they have but clearly it is not enough. They can only run a handful of 12 cars in the peaks on metro routes - I think it's just 1 heading out from central London in the PM peak. Growth is pretty fast on the metro lines, and much is under-reported as a lot of the network is a 'free' railway like Silverlink used to be - no on train staff, unstaffed stations and even if there are staff or barriers they're left open almost all day.

Some moving of stock can lead to short term improvements (such as making more packed Cannon Street services 10 car thus reducing more Charing Cross to 8) but that wont be enough for long - certainly not until late 2017. I've noticed lots of Victoria services are now down to 6 or even 4 the past week or two. Clearly inadequate and the franchise is struggling as the DfT didn't plan enough for growth and disruption levels.

News out this week shows that Greenwich borough has seen population growth of 11% in just 4 years since 2011 - around 30000 people, and that level will likely increase up to 2018 as very many large scale developments open in 2015 and 2016, but no new trains until Dec 2017.

SE can't be blamed here for a lack of planning from central government.

376's cannot be made 6 cars apparently. As this is a big issue could they not move to areas where 10 car is the limit and 4 car units move to SE to make more 12 car trains?

As for Woolwich Dockyard, SE swapping 5 car 376s for 4 car 377s making 12 car trains with SDO may help? Alternatively, it doesn't look a huge job making Woolwich Dockyard 12 car long as the 'tunnels' either end are cut and cover with nothing but grass above. Or the whole station could be moved to areas where large scale redevelopment is just beginning at Morris Walk estate a few hundred metres west, and money used from those to help fund it, along with over-station development from Network Rail.

 

[notadriver]

Is there any scope for taking pressure of the trains and creating express bus services using dedicated bus lanes ?

 

[ScotGG]

In SE London? No - the road network is generally very poor and express buses will only help a small amount, but road capacity is just not there in most areas. Heavy traffic at all peak times, and things like inadequate river crossings add to that. Even from Greenwich a bus is incredibly slow - 1 hour plus is not unusual when it's 8 minutes on a train so all will go for the train. Due to very expensive housing and not enough of it, most people are forced out beyond Greenwich/Lewisham/Deptford etc, thus direct buses do not exist from many areas and you're talking 2-3 hours to get to work by bus. An express may knock off 20 minutes but no real solution.

People have no choice other than the train really in much of SE London and the metro area, despite what some on here say. London house prices are now way beyond the affordability of most, and outer London employment has shrunk fast as inner London employment grows. Commuting by train is the only feasible way for many.

It's becoming a severe problem and government have been left wanting, badly.

 

[telstarbox]

Some low paid workers do get the bus from the outer zones to central London because they can't afford the train. See routes such as the 188 and 453.

 

[hassaanhc]

Some low paid workers do get the bus from the outer zones to central London because they can't afford the train. See routes such as the 188 and 453.

I think you meant the 53 from Plumstead as the 453 only goes to Deptford. 188 is fine as it goes to North Greenwich with buses to deep South East London.

 

[Busaholic]

Is there any scope for taking pressure of the trains and creating express bus services using dedicated bus lanes ?

In the 1980s London Transport did introduce two express bus services from the Woolwich area, namely the the 53X and 177X but the reality of the inadequate S.E. London road system meant insignificant time-savings over stopping services. There are, however, a lot of commuter coaches from Medway Towns and other parts of Kent to Canary Wharf as well as the City.

 

[notadriver]

Maybe crossrail will help ease congestion when it opens.

 

[ScotGG]

Some low paid workers do get the bus from the outer zones to central London because they can't afford the train. See routes such as the 188 and 453.

Even those don't go too far out of central London, only up to Deptford in the case of the 453 which is zone 2, and that area is well out of the price range of most people. I know a fair few people working in central earning 20-30k and they can't afford pretty much anything in zone 2 on that. Only chance is if pretty rich or eligible for social housing.

There's the 53 but christ that's a very long and tedious journey. Doing an office job in central you'd hardly ever have any spare time, so many will go to overcrowded SE metro or overcrowded DLR and bus from there.

Crossrail will help but the scale of development and population growth will mean it fills quickly, and it is of limited use to many who don't live near Woolwich or Abbey Wood and stations along the north kent line. It will lessen crowding on that route to perhaps free up stock for other lines, but it wont last too long.

The sooner SE metro provides a full 12 car railway across SE London and Kent the better. The area is seeing, and in line for, massive growth and infrastructure is lagging.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Good case in point tonight about buses as a terrible alternative to SE trains for most of SE London - the Blackwall tunnel was closed so heavy traffic in many areas and long bus delays on the very poor road network.

Also problems with the Southeastern line earlier has meant one train not running leaving a 25 minute gap on the very busy Greenwich line in the evening peak. Not many people will be getting on the first one that turns up.

 

[Antman]

In the 1980s London Transport did introduce two express bus services from the Woolwich area, namely the the 53X and 177X but the reality of the inadequate S.E. London road system meant insignificant time-savings over stopping services. There are, however, a lot of commuter coaches from Medway Towns and other parts of Kent to Canary Wharf as well as the City.

The X53 was great and continued beyond Woolwich to Thamesmead and was a lot quicker than a 53 that stops at virtually every stop at peak times, sadly it was withdrawn when the Jubilee line extension opened and it was assumed that people would use that instead.

The commuter coaches have the advantage of going direct to Canary Wharf, a friend of mine works there and lives in Rainham (Kent) and said he would be looking for another job if he had to commute by train.

 

[ScotGG]

Maybe more expresses to North Greenwich from Thamesmead, Woolwich etc in the east and from Eltham in the south to relieve Southeastern?

Withdrawing the x53 may have made some sense in 1999 with traffic levels then, but it can now take an age to get from Thamesmead to North Greenwich by bus. Even Woolwich to north Greenwich is not something I'd want to do on very slow buses.

 

[Antman]

Even those don't go too far out of central London, only up to Deptford in the case of the 453 which is zone 2, and that area is well out of the price range of most people. I know a fair few people working in central earning 20-30k and they can't afford pretty much anything in zone 2 on that. Only chance is if pretty rich or eligible for social housing.

There's the 53 but christ that's a very long and tedious journey. Doing an office job in central you'd hardly ever have any spare time, so many will go to overcrowded SE metro or overcrowded DLR and bus from there.

Crossrail will help but the scale of development and population growth will mean it fills quickly, and it is of limited use to many who don't live near Woolwich or Abbey Wood and stations along the north kent line. It will lessen crowding on that route to perhaps free up stock for other lines, but it wont last too long.

The sooner SE metro provides a full 12 car railway across SE London and Kent the better. The area is seeing, and in line for, massive growth and infrastructure is lagging.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Good case in point tonight about buses as a terrible alternative to SE trains for most of SE London - the Blackwall tunnel was closed so heavy traffic in many areas and long bus delays on the very poor road network.

Also problems with the Southeastern line earlier has meant one train not running leaving a 25 minute gap on the very busy Greenwich line in the evening peak. Not many people will be getting on the first one that turns up.

And tonight there is a broken down van causing problems at the Blackwall Tunnel

 

[ScotGG]

Yep usual story - gridlock across much of SE London.

Same story on trains as well - 1 train leaving London Bridge 10 minutes late left a 22 minute gap at the height of the evening peak.

It's all a bit of a shambles and no relief in sight anytime soon.

 

[Bald Rick]

It's all a bit of a shambles and no relief in sight anytime soon.

I think that's a bit of an exaggeration. As part of my job I have watched 5 evening peaks from London Bridge on the SE side. Yes some trains are very busy, and delays obviously have an impact. But it is no worse crowding than on Thameslink, London Overground, or the GE Metro to name but three. Indeed tonight I watched peak Greenwich and Bexleyheath line trains leave with seats available. And, frankly, performance is much better than it was before Christmas, indeed much better than it has been for well over a year.

Meanwhile AIUI there are some diagram tweaks coming up in a couple of weeks to put more longer trains on the Cannon St side (taking stock off the Charing x side).

So I maintain that it is anything but a shambles, and some relief is coming in a few weeks.

 

[user15681]

Meanwhile AIUI there are some diagram tweaks coming up in a couple of weeks to put more longer trains on the Cannon St side (taking stock off the Charing x side).

So I maintain that it is anything but a shambles, and some relief is coming in a few weeks.

Indeed, beginning/mid March for some length and timetable tweaks. Performance improvement plan (like the NR/GTR one) by the end of March, too.

(And there are a few more evening Thameslink Meet the Manager sessions too, for the next month)

 

[ScotGG]

I think that's a bit of an exaggeration. As part of my job I have watched 5 evening peaks from London Bridge on the SE side. Yes some trains are very busy, and delays obviously have an impact. But it is no worse crowding than on Thameslink, London Overground, or the GE Metro to name but three. Indeed tonight I watched peak Greenwich and Bexleyheath line trains leave with seats available. And, frankly, performance is much better than it was before Christmas, indeed much better than it has been for well over a year.

Meanwhile AIUI there are some diagram tweaks coming up in a couple of weeks to put more longer trains on the Cannon St side (taking stock off the Charing x side).

So I maintain that it is anything but a shambles, and some relief is coming in a few weeks.

True, shambles is a bit of an exaggeration, and was more in relation to all forms of transport in SE London including the inadequate road and bus network which have been awful quite a bit recently. Rail service reliability has been better than before Xmas.

On the subject of comparing crowding to other routes like Thameslink, GE metro, and LO, I guess one difference is those are getting additional stock sooner than planned for SE? 5 car now on LO, new stock being ordered for GE metro (arriving 2016?) and of course many more for Thameslink.

Temple - what exactly does a performance improvement plan involve? Not more timetable padding I hope?

 

[ComUtoR]

Indeed tonight I watched peak Greenwich and Bexleyheath line trains leave with seats available.

How do you watch trains ? Visually at a station or via a pc and watching the loading data ?

 

[notadriver]

How do you watch trains ? Visually at a station or via a pc and watching the loading data ?

Platform staff perhaps ?

 

[ComUtoR]

Platform staff perhaps ?

I thought he was train planning or something similar.

I know that the load data should be available. I wonder if its available via XDM or via another live system.

Passengers board mentality is crazy and whilst there may be some "empty seats" you still get crush at specific door and this impacts loading time but probably doesn't show on a data system. Loading times affect ppm and can cause knock on delays.

I'd be interested to find out how loading is monitored. I know there has been emails sent out for route feedback and sometimes it gets addressed but often it gets reset at timetable change. I've asked many times internally about timetable clash and loading times on services that are consistently crowded but the response is, well, the usual.

 

[Bald Rick]

How do you watch trains ? Visually at a station or via a pc and watching the loading data ?

Standing next to the dispatchers, country end of platforms, in the cold / wet. Hats off to the platform staff who do that every day.

And no, I'm not a train planner...

 

[ComUtoR]

Standing next to the dispatchers, country end of platforms.

And no, I'm not a train planner...

Cheers. You have mentioned in the past you have attended meet the manager sessions and you are certainly higher up the food chain that I.

Some Drivers have been reporting that specific services are very overcrowded. I do wonder as to the effectiveness of monitoring. I hope that the load data and visual checks are used in unison as well as Driver and Delay reports.

 

[Seaeagle]

Some Drivers have been reporting that specific services are very overcrowded. I do wonder as to the effectiveness of monitoring. I hope that the load data and visual checks are used in unison as well as Driver and Delay reports.

Now that some/most of the off peak services from Victoria to Dover/Ramsgate have been reduced to one four car 375's, the over-crowding on them has to be seen to be believed. I've traveled on the 15.37 Victoria to Ramsgate on several occasions since the timetable change and you need to be on it at least ten minutes before it departs to get a seat, yesterday with the school half term holidays taking place, people could not board it at Victoria!

 

[ScotGG]

According to documents when the franchise was extended to 2018, only 25% of networkers have the ability to measure weight and calculate crowding.

 

[notadriver]

Now that some/most of the off peak services from Victoria to Dover/Ramsgate have been reduced to one four car 375's, the over-crowding on them has to be seen to be believed. I've traveled on the 15.37 Victoria to Ramsgate on several occasions since the timetable change and you need to be on it at least ten minutes before it departs to get a seat, yesterday with the school half term holidays taking place, people could not board it at Victoria!

Do you think this was only because of half term? i bet when the kids go back to school things will return to 'normal'.

 

[causton]

Was going to say, do not base anything on today as every single Great Northern semi-fast or better train I have seen or got all week has been rammed! Barely got to travel on any this week as there was no room at all to board! Wonder if the 365s will ever get passenger loading measuring equipment, or perhaps they did at refresh!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Maybe more expresses to North Greenwich from Thamesmead, Woolwich etc in the east and from Eltham in the south to relieve Southeastern?

That is a very good idea. I'm sure being able to get an express bus straight to North Greenwich would help a lot of people around Thamesmead, Abbey Wood and Eltham, and to some extent Woolwich (I would guess, less difference, although still helpful, for Woolwich due to the DLR and existing buses).

(I'm not sure how much the Jubilee line could cope with more people, though)

 

[ScotGG]

It's had it's signal upgrade so should be able to in the near term, though once 20k new homes on the Peninsula open, along with 10k + at Stratford and 5k at Canning Town you're right that it may not be able to cope. But a lot of those new builds will start opening around 2018 so express buses could perhaps run up to then and then be reduced when crossrail opens.