Southeastern Bylaws report

[Kate Anthony]

Hello
I received a southeastern bylaw report that maybe resulted in prosecution.
I am very worried as I don’t know what to expect.
I have never been issue any penalty fare or have any criminal record of any kind before

 

[mikeg]

Hi and welcome.
Unfortunately you've given us insufficient details to answer your query. We need to know what happened in your own words and which offence you are alleged to have committed in order to help you further.

 

[telstarbox]

I would suggest changing your user name too as SE may read this.

 

[Kate Anthony]

Hi and welcome.
Unfortunately you've given us insufficient details to answer your query. We need to know what happened in your own words and which offence you are alleged to have committed in order to help you further.

Hi Mikeg, I didn't buy a ticket and I tried explaining to the train inspector that the ticket machine didn't accept my note and the ticket office was also close at that moment. He ask for my details and I refuse but later gave him my id 15mins later and he issue a southeastern bylaw report

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Oct 2021 ==

I would suggest changing your user name too as SE may read this.

Thanks

 

[AlbertBeale]

If you're unable to buy a ticket at the station, because the machine doesn't work and the ticket office is shut, then you should be allowed to buy the ticket at the first opportunity, such as on the train if there are staff on the train. Why did the person on the train ask for your details? Didn't you try to buy the ticket from him? Did he refuse to sell you a ticket and ask for your details instead because he didn't believe that you were unable to buy your ticket at the station? Your explanation isn't very clear so far...

 

[AlterEgo]

We need some more details before we can help, so it will be useful for you to be as clear as you can when replying.

How long ago did this happen?
Where were you travelling from and to?
What day of the week and time did you travel?
Why did the ticket machine refuse your bank note? Do you know why? What bank note did you try to use?
After the machine refused the bank note, where did you intend on paying for your ticket, and how?
Did you have any other means of payment on you?
Why did you refuse to give your details when first asked?

 

[Kate Anthony]

If you're unable to buy a ticket at the station, because the machine doesn't work and the ticket office is shut, then you should be allowed to buy the ticket at the first opportunity, such as on the train if there are staff on the train. Why did the person on the train ask for your details? Didn't you try to buy the ticket from him? Did he refuse to sell you a ticket and ask for your details instead because he didn't believe that you were unable to buy your ticket at the station? Your explanation isn't very clear so far...

Yeah I did try to buy the ticket from him but he said they don't sell ticket anymore since the pandemic started, they where not the regular inspector as this once were wearing yellow Bomber Jacket with camera. Yeah I think he didn't believe me and that was why he was asking for my details which I was upset about and refuse given him my id.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Hello
I received a southeastern bylaw report that maybe resulted in prosecution.
I am very worried as I don’t know what to expect.

I didn't buy a ticket and I tried explaining to the train inspector that the ticket machine didn't accept my note and the ticket office was also close at that moment. He ask for my details and I refuse but later gave him my id 15mins later and he issue a southeastern bylaw report

I did try to buy the ticket from him but he said they don't sell ticket anymore since the pandemic started, they where not the regular inspector as this once were wearing yellow Bomber Jacket with camera. Yeah I think he didn't believe me and that was why he was asking for my details which I was upset about and refuse given him my id.

Let’s see what we can explain on the basis of what you’ve told us.

The bad news is that you’ve definitely broken one railway byelaw (see https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/railway-byelaws/railway-byelaws)

23. Name and address​

1. any person reasonably suspected by an authorised person of breaching or attempting to breach any of these byelaws shall give his name and address when asked by an authorised person.
2. the authorised person asking for details under Byelaw 23(1) shall state the nature of the breach of any of these byelaws in general terms at the time of the request.

And you may have broken another one:

18. Ticketless travel in non-compulsory ticket areas​

1. in any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel
2. a person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an authorised person
3. no person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if:
   1. there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey or
   2. there was a notice at the station where he began his journey permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket or
   3. an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket

But you might not have broken byelaw 18 depending on how things were at your starting station (see byelaw 18(3)) - that’s why there are people here who want more details about where you started your journey and so on.

At the risk of stating the obvious, there are broadly two things that the railway can do now: they can decide not to go any further, or they can pursue you to resolve matters. The only way you will know if the railway aren’t going to go any further is to wait: if the railway haven’t been in touch for maybe the next seven months, then you’ll be able to assume that they won’t be in touch.

But if they do want to take matters further, they will write to you. That letter will most probably say that they are considering prosecuting you, but actually what it will be will be a request for you to give further information. @Hadders who often contributes to these threads has some excellent advice on what to do when you get this letter - see (for example) https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/inspectors-on-gtr-great-northern.223009/post-5336809.

Normally I wouldn’t add anything to this advice - but in your case you need to decide whether or not you were in breach of byelaw 18. And we’ll find it easier to help you [EDIT] decide that if you can tell us where you were travelling from, and when.

Just a couple of things to add: to deal with this, it’s important to stay in touch with the railway. If the address you gave to the railway wasn’t right, then it is pretty likely that this matter will go to court and you will get a fine - which will eventually have to be paid when the court’s debt collectors find you. You’ll also have to pay the debt collectors’ costs.

And why something like seven months before you can be certain that the railway won’t be in touch? That’s because if the railway want to take something like this to court, they have to tell the court within six months of the incident. And then the railway court has to tell you - which could take a few weeks more. Six months plus a few weeks is about seven months.

(Edited for typos)

 

[Waldgrun]

Write down, (record) your account of what happened, keep it clear and non emotive . As a timeline might be a good idea!

 

[Kate Anthony]

Let’s see what we can explain on the basis of what you’ve told us.

The bad news is that you’ve definitely broken one railway byelaw (see https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/railway-byelaws/railway-byelaws)



And you may have broken another one:



But you might not have broken byelaw 18 depending on how things were at your starting station (see byelaw 18(3)) - that’s why there are people here who want more details about where you started your journey and so on.

At the risk of stating the obvious, there are broadly two things that the railway can do now: they can decide not to go any further, or they can pursue you to resolve matters. The only way you will know if the railway aren’t going to go any further is to wait: if the railway haven’t been in touch for maybe the next seven months, then you’ll be able to assume that they won’t be in touch.

But if they do want to take matters further, they will write to you. That letter will most probably say that they are considering prosecuting you, but actually what it will be will be a request for you to give further information. @Hadders who often contributes to these threads has some excellent advice on what to do when you get this letter - see (for example) https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/inspectors-on-gtr-great-northern.223009/post-5336809.

Normally I wouldn’t add anything to this advice - but in your case you need to decide whether or not you were in breach of byelaw 18. And we’ll find it easier to help you that if you can tell us where you were travelling from, and when.

Just a couple of things to add: to deal with this, it’s important to stay in touch with the railway. If the address you gave to the railway wasn’t right, then it is pretty likely that this matter will go to court and you will get a fine - which will eventually have to be paid when the court’s debt collectors find you. You’ll also have to pay the debt collectors’ costs.

And why something like seven months before you can be certain that the railway won’t be in touch? That’s because if the railway want to take something like this to court, they have to tell the court within six months of the incident. And then the railway has to tell you - which could take a few weeks more. Six months plus a few weeks is about seven months.

Hi fawkes cat, Thanks very much for your response. This actually happen on Thursday at 20:15pm and I was traveling from Strood kent to Maidstone barracks.
I didn't give any false details, i actually gave the inspector my drivers licence and he collected my details from there

 

[Watershed]

The bad news is that you’ve definitely broken one railway byelaw (see https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/railway-byelaws/railway-byelaws)

Not necessarily. If OP had a valid note which the machine would not accept, and they didn't have sufficient alternative change with which to pay for the ticket, they were entitled to board the train and buy their ticket at the next available opportunity. In such circumstances, OP would not have been in breach of Byelaw 18.

If OP explained this to the RPI, I would struggle to see how - without at least considering OP's account - they could form reasonable suspicion of a breach of Byelaw 18. And accordingly, OP would not be in breach of Byelaw 23 because the RPI would not have been entitled to demand OP's name and address.

If the events are as described above, I don't think that OP necessarily needs to go straight to asking for a settlement. If OP has a letter from Southeastern asking for a written version of events, they should say exactly what has happened, that they offered to pay and hence why they did not offer their name and address.

 

[MotCO]

The other thing is whether you were polite and reasonable, or were abusive and uncooperative. If you were polite, then that is in your favour.

 

[221129]

If OP explained this to the RPI, I would struggle to see how - without at least considering OP's account - they could form reasonable suspicion of a breach of Byelaw 18. And accordingly, OP would not be in breach of Byelaw 23 because the RPI would not have been entitled to demand OP's name and address.

I think you have a flawed opinion of what the legal system of this country would allow as reasonable suspicion unfortunately.

The OP couldn't present a ticket or evidence of the machine not working. That would allow reasonable suspicion.

 

[Kate Anthony]

The other thing is whether you were polite and reasonable, or were abusive and uncooperative. If you were polite, then that is in your favour.

Yes I was very polite and brought out the 20£ note which the machine did not accept for me to pay for the ticket on board, he said they don't sell ticket since the pandemic started that I have to give my details and also show my I'd .... after few minutes when I notice he was not ready to accept my explanation I have no option than to give him my driving licence

 

[Jackofspades]

Have you ever been issued a penalty fare before? Southeastern have a policy that after 2 penalty fares in a 12 month period means that if stopped again you would be issued with a byelaw rather than penalty fare. As for the machine not accepting youre note did you have any alternative means to pay? Eg a bank card?

 

[ta-toget]

Thursday at 20:15pm

When the ticket office was closed, according to Southeastern's website.

Strood (Kent)​

Address​

Strood station
Canal Road
Strood
ME2 4DR

Ticket office​

Monday to Friday: 6:00 AM to 7:00 PM
Saturday: 7:45 AM to 2:00 PM
Sunday: 8:15 AM to 3:30 PM

 

[Kate Anthony]

Have you ever been issued a penalty fare before? Southeastern have a policy that after 2 penalty fares in a 12 month period means that if stopped again you would be issued with a byelaw rather than penalty fare. As for the machine not accepting youre note did you have any alternative means to pay? Eg a bank card?

I have never be issue a penalty fare before.
No I was not having any alternative means to pay except that 20£

 

[AlterEgo]

How many machines are at Strood? The NRE site claims there are two although we know this is often not accurate.

It will really help us to nail down whether there was any ticket purchase opportunity for the OP.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

I've put below the advice I normally give to people who come here seeking advice in similar circumstances to yourself. The circumstances of your case are not 100% clear but generally speaking if ticket issuing facilities are available at the station where you start your journey, that can issue the ticket you require for your journey using your chosen payment method, you must use them to purchase a ticket. An open ticket office or a ticket vending machine are ticket issuing facilities.

You are likely to receive a letter from the train company (or an investigation company acting on their behalf) which will probably take a few weeks to arrive saying that they have received a report, are considering prosecuting you and asking for your version of events. It is important that you engage with and reply to this letter. You might want to include the following in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Make sure your reply is short and concise, don't give a sob story - they've heard it all before. Most train companies are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) for people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. There is no guarantee of this and the train company would be well within their rights to prosecute you in the magistrates court.

If you are offered a settlement the amount varies depending on the train company and circumstances but tend to be a few hundred pounds plus the outstanding fare. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.

Feel free to post a copy of the letter when it arrives (with personal details removed) and I'm sure members on here will be happy to assist in proof reading your reply.

 

[Starmill]

I think you have a flawed opinion of what the legal system of this country would allow as reasonable suspicion unfortunately.

The OP couldn't present a ticket or evidence of the machine not working. That would allow reasonable suspicion.

However if the customer were actually offering to pay i.e. they offered the banknote of sufficient value to cover their fare, it would be very odd indeed not to choose to accept it and issue the ticket or a Penalty Fare. So it's still somewhat uncertain what actually happened I'd say.

Any Penalty Fare could then work through the usual appeals process. An appeal would be likely to be successful if the payment were made on the spot, no ticket office were available at the origin at the time of day in question and there was any doubt about the capability of the ticket machine.

In theory Southeastern could attempt to charge under the Railway Byelaws every time but of course if they do that and lose they get zero, and risk wasted costs orders plus their own costs. Issuing a ticket or Penalty Fare by contrast takes a few seconds and they get the cash immediately.

Reasonable suspicion it may be. However, Southeastern will still need to prove beyond reasonable doubt that a ticket could have actually been bought.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Oct 2021 ==

Welcome to the forum!

I've put below the advice I normally give to people who come here seeking advice in similar circumstances to yourself. The circumstances of your case are not 100% clear but generally speaking if ticket issuing facilities are available at the station where you start your journey, that can issue the ticket you require for your journey using your chosen payment method, you must use them to purchase a ticket. An open ticket office or a ticket vending machine are ticket issuing facilities.

You are likely to receive a letter from the train company (or an investigation company acting on their behalf) which will probably take a few weeks to arrive saying that they have received a report, are considering prosecuting you and asking for your version of events. It is important that you engage with and reply to this letter. You might want to include the following in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Make sure your reply is short and concise, don't give a sob story - they've heard it all before. Most train companies are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) for people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. There is no guarantee of this and the train company would be well within their rights to prosecute you in the magistrates court.

If you are offered a settlement the amount varies depending on the train company and circumstances but tend to be a few hundred pounds plus the outstanding fare. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.

Feel free to post a copy of the letter when it arrives (with personal details removed) and I'm sure members on here will be happy to assist in proof reading your reply.

I think it's unwise to suggest the payment of any settlement when it appears doubtful that an offence has been committed.

 

[221129]

Reasonable suspicion it may be. However, Southeastern will still need to prove beyond reasonable doubt that a ticket could have actually been bought.

It depends. As the OP committed a separate offence by initially refusing to provide details. So they could go for that (unlikely but possible) instead of the ticketing issue.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I think it's unwise to suggest the payment of any settlement when it appears doubtful that an offence has been committed.

Did the actual fare due ever get paid? Something like £6.30 or thereabouts.

 

[P Binnersley]

It depends. As the OP committed a separate offence by initially refusing to provide details. So they could go for that (unlikely but possible) instead of the ticketing issue.

She only stated that she refused to give him ID, that is not a bylaw requirement. You only have to give (state) your name and address, not prove it. The inspector can ask for ID, but can't demand it.

 

[Starmill]

It's even less clear to me what precisely was said on respect of the details than in respect of the fare to pay unfortunately, so it's very difficult to say anything beyond it sounds like there is doubt in both cases whether the OP is guilty of an offence.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Oct 2021 ==

Did the actual fare due ever get paid? Something like £6.30 or thereabouts.

Another good question. Amusingly of course if the company charged a Penalty Fare in place of a ticket, and an appeal on the Penalty Fare succeeded, they're actually forced to permit travel for free.

 

[Watershed]

I think you have a flawed opinion of what the legal system of this country would allow as reasonable suspicion unfortunately.

Reasonable suspicion is indeed a disappointingly low bar.

But at least some level of investigation would need to be made, and the OP's account considered, before the member of staff could lawfully come to have reasonable suspicion of an offence.

In this case it sounds as if they went straight to saying "No ticket? Right, what's your name". Which is not how reasonable suspicion works.

The OP couldn't present a ticket or evidence of the machine not working. That would allow reasonable suspicion.

If a passenger alleges that a ticket machine did not accept their note, how are they supposed to prove that? Unless there is evidence to the contrary, such a claim must be accepted.

Yes I was very polite and brought out the 20£ note which the machine did not accept for me to pay for the ticket on board, he said they don't sell ticket since the pandemic started

If the company hasn't issued them with the equipment to sell a ticket, that's their prerogative. But it does not affect your legal position, nor does it mean you must give your details.

that I have to give my details and also show my I'd .... after few minutes when I notice he was not ready to accept my explanation I have no option than to give him my driving licence

There is never any obligation to show ID to railway staff. You may, in certain circumstances, be required to give your name and address but it is questionable whether this applied in your circumstances.

I think you are best off, when/if you receive your letter, giving Southeastern a full and accurate account of what happened, but without admitting or denying liability for any potential offence.

They can then decide how they want to proceed. If they think there are grounds for prosecuting you, and you would like to settle such a prosecution out of court, you still have the chance to ask for a settlement. And in most cases, if it's the first time you've come to their attention you would tend to be offered one.

 

[Jackofspades]

How many machines are at Strood? The NRE site claims there are two although we know this is often not accurate.

It will really help us to nail down whether there was any ticket purchase opportunity for the OP.

Definitely 2 machines. But these are in the ticket office area which may be shut when office is closed.

 

[WesternLancer]

I have never be issue a penalty fare before.
No I was not having any alternative means to pay except that 20£

Hi - I see lots of useful advice on this thread for you. In recent other threads involving South Eastern they have been quite reasonable in how they have dealt with cases. Strikes me that you have the chance to write to them and press your case ref unable to buy ticket at Strood due to machine(s) not accepting your bank note.

I think best thing for you to do is draft up a letter that you can send to them explaining situation, and post draft here for people to comment to help you get a good reply.

Focus on being unable to buy the ticket that you intended to buy, include a short apology for initially holding back on giving your details to the staff, but explain you quickly realised this was inappropriate action on your part and offered the staff a clear official form of ID (driving license) but that you believe that you only owe the fare for the journey that you could not obtain from the machine you tried to use that day.

Good luck.

 

[AlterEgo]

Definitely 2 machines. But these are in the ticket office area which may be shut when office is closed.

Well the OP mentions using a machine which refused her note so the ticket office area must have been open for her to do that.

OP: did you try both machines?

 

[WesternLancer]

Well the OP mentions using a machine which refused her note so the ticket office area must have been open for her to do that.

OP: did you try both machines?

I was at Strood last sat. I already had a ticket but I went out to the main building looking for the lavs (walked past them without noticing) hence at that time I saw that the ticket office was closed, but that there was a ticket machine (or more) beside the ticket office window. Unless there are times when that main building is locked up (eg late at night). You can get to the machines. However, I do not know what issue makes such machines reject notes. If perhaps you have a very tired or tatty note - which is feasible - both machines might reject it and you may thus think it is not worth any further effort to try other machines, esp if you think purchase on board may be an option.

I would try both myself I expect, tho its not unreasonable if a machine rejects a note to think another (or every) machine will do the same. One could board the Trian where the guard is and ask them at your point of boarding if you can buy a ticket because the machine would not accept payment - but we know on these threads people tend not to do that but wait until they are asked for a ticket by a member of staff, and in some cases things can then go downhill from there I guess.

The OP needs to write and try to persuade SE trains they made an effort to pay but were unable to do so, and see if SE trains are prepared to accept that argument. Presumably the machines do reject notes that the machines deem not to be valid for whatever reason. At the very least you would expect them to be programmed to reject genuine forged notes, where the machine can detect that.

 

[Kate Anthony]

Good morning, I just received this now.please any help on how to respond x