Southeastern attack Network Rail

[ScotGG]

SE have come out today and been a lot more forthright on criticising NR. An interesting development, and we'll see how it goes. What's the record with TOCs breaking ranks and criticsing NR and the govt? One would expect it wouldn't be in their favour but I vaguely recall some doing it before.

This comes after SE came second bottom in the latest passenger survey yesterday. They've been bottom, or around it, for quite a few years now. Pre-dating the London Bridge upheaval though that clearly doesn't help. They're again propping up the daily PPM league. Not their fault on the whole.

Maybe after the constant bad PR, plus the announcement that its very likely that control of metro routes will pass to TfL in 2018, they've decided to change tack. Will it pay off for Govia? Not much else to lose with this franchise?

Story here. The language used does seem to have changed. http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/1...twork_Rail_after_rush_hour_trains_disruption/

Under-fire rail operator Southeastern has hit out at the state of track maintenance by Network Rail following severe rush-hour disruptions.

Commuters in London were left furious after more than 20 trains were cancelled or delayed by the company on Thursday morning (January 28).

The operator, which was named one of the worst companies for passenger satisfaction on Wednesday, said it could only run a service on a track that was "fit for purpose".

Southeastern is set to face a grilling from MPs in Parliament today, led by Conservative Bob Neill.

Concerns about punctuality, overcrowding and inadequate compensation will be raised by the MP for Bromley and Chislehurst, who regularly uses the service.

Thursday's disruption left some passengers facing a two-hour wait and was caused by a faulty piece of equipment damaging a conductor rail, leaving the line without power, at Kemsing, near Sevenoaks, Network Rail said.

Southeastern said it was planning to challenge Network Rail over its maintenance procedure....

 

[DarloRich]

shock horror - company under scrutiny goes on attack to try to deflect blame. Old School PR tactics at their best

 

[ScotGG]

True, but they've had torrid times the past few years and been pretty reticent. They hardly ever come out and deflect blame openly.

 

[Clip]

shock horror - company under scrutiny goes on attack to try to deflect blame. Old School PR tactics at their best

To be fair though the way the story about this mornings issues were reported first off mentioned nothing about it being an NR issue. The Standard had to update its own story to include Network rail after about an hour as it didn't do in its first web release.


And it is NR's fault.

 

[DarloRich]

To be fair though the way the story about this mornings issues were reported first off mentioned nothing about it being an NR issue. The Standard had to update its own story to include Network rail after about an hour as it didn't do in its first web release.


And it is NR's fault.

Some, perhaps lots, but not all of it. SE are less than perfect at times, especially in comms and customer care while the DfT deserve questions over stock provision/ service specifications etc

 

[Clip]

Some, perhaps lots, but not all of it. SE are less than perfect at times, especially in comms and customer care while the DfT deserve questions over stock provision/ service specifications etc

I know but its nice to see them highlighting the main delay issues so eloquently

 

[DarloRich]

I know but its nice to see them highlighting the main delay issues so eloquently

hmmmmm - Perhaps if the TOC offered better access opportunities etc

 

[MrB]

Almost every day this week there has been a single failure affecting my journeys and this surely can't be blamed on SE.

 

[TrenHotel]

Diddums. Their communications are awful - particularly around weekend engineering. They should clean their own stable out first.

 

[Class377/5]

shock horror - company under scrutiny goes on attack to try to deflect blame. Old School PR tactics at their best

Sorry but how is a TOC deflecting blame when the infrastructure at fault? Its being honest. If the rails aren't fit for trains on the NR infrastructure then its not the TOCs fault.

Cheap qiup at best.

 

[colchesterken]

I think sometimes we are too quick to blame the TOC, Sure it is their fault when the trains are dirty or shortages of staff, no spare trains to cover maintenance some "incidents"
However fair doos they are not at fault for signal, points failures, Wires down, Ballast cleaning train hitting bridge, over running engineering works & and "emergency services dealing with incidents"
Which is why I posted the other day I thought that expression could work against the TOC the uninformed could think an incident is a failure of the service or defective maintenance to the trains

 

[The Box Photter]

Sorry but how is a TOC deflecting blame when the infrastructure at fault? Its being honest. If the rails aren't fit for trains on the NR infrastructure then its not the TOCs fault.

Cheap qiup at best.

I suppose they could take their custom away from Network Rail in the same way that the thousands of commuters could take their custom away from Southeastern/Govia/SWT etc. Isn't that how a privatised free market is supposed to work?

.... Oh hang on.

 

[DarloRich]

Sorry but how is a TOC deflecting blame when the infrastructure at fault? Its being honest. If the rails aren't fit for trains on the NR infrastructure then its not the TOCs fault.

Cheap qiup at best.

let he who is without sin cast the first stone. He who comes into equity must come with clean hands etc etc.

I would also consider what classes of fault are attributed to NR they cover all sorts of things outside of their direct control, such as the weather, road vehicle bridge strikes etc. It isn't just have "rails... fit for trains"

 

[ComUtoR]

I would also consider what classes of fault are attributed to NR they cover all sorts of things outside of their direct control, such as the weather, road vehicle bridge strikes etc.

It isn't about attribution. It's the passenger perception and blame culture that it the big issue at hand here.

When I'm on a train and announce that there is a "bridge strike" it is generally accepted that it is outside of the TOC's control and there are minimal complaints.

When there is overrunning engineering works its almost the same perception but the we still get moaned at because there is a small perception that we can control that and should run via a diversion etc. There is an understanding that it is beyond our direct control.

When your out there sitting on a signal because of another points failure or London Bridge goes up the wall because of a track fault and we end up cancelling trains we get it in the neck pretty much 100% Even on this very forum there is flagrant accusations of fraud ad the TOC fudging the PPM numbers.

When its our fault then yeah, mud sticks. However the ignorant attitude of some passengers is that the TOC gets the blame 100% of the time whether or not it is their fault.

I'm sure you know the feeling where your totally helpless, stuck in a situation that has nothing to do with you but you have screaming, angry passengers, blaming you.

The TOC's are beginning to fight back and are finally sticking up for themselves. NR hide behind the TOC's

I read a statement from NR and it told the passengers to apply for Delay Repay compensation. Passenger perception is then shifted towards the TOC. Nobody cares which pot of money that comes from but they apply and blame the TOC for the problems with their journey.

 

[infobleep]

It isn't about attribution. It's the passenger perception and blame culture that it the big issue at hand here.

When I'm on a train and announce that there is a "bridge strike" it is generally accepted that it is outside of the TOC's control and there are minimal complaints.

When there is overrunning engineering works its almost the same perception but the we still get moaned at because there is a small perception that we can control that and should run via a diversion etc. There is an understanding that it is beyond our direct control.

When your out there sitting on a signal because of another points failure or London Bridge goes up the wall because of a track fault and we end up cancelling trains we get it in the neck pretty much 100% Even on this very forum there is flagrant accusations of fraud ad the TOC fudging the PPM numbers.

When its our fault then yeah, mud sticks. However the ignorant attitude of some passengers is that the TOC gets the blame 100% of the time whether or not it is their fault.

I'm sure you know the feeling where your totally helpless, stuck in a situation that has nothing to do with you but you have screaming, angry passengers, blaming you.

The TOC's are beginning to fight back and are finally sticking up for themselves. NR hide behind the TOC's

I read a statement from NR and it told the passengers to apply for Delay Repay compensation. Passenger perception is then shifted towards the TOC. Nobody cares which pot of money that comes from but they apply and blame the TOC for the problems with their journey.

I would gladly claim delay repay from Network Rail when it's their fault but I'm not allowed to. I don't include fatalities in that claim statement although currently technically they do pay for them.

My issue isn't with trains being delayed due to incidents such as points failures, as no technology is 100% perfect but the lack of communication. Now that is the TOCs fault.

If I miss my connection at Woking because we are 6 minutes late in and the guard remains silent, as is mostly the case it seems with the 17.39 and 18.40 services from Surbiton to Woking I'm not impressed. If he said something I'd be less annoyed. Oddly enough, I'm more likely to get delays acknowledged on 8.02 stopping service from Woking to Surbiton. Even if it's just a couple of minutes late.

I usually know what the problem is as I check real train times, twitter, South West Trains and / or the National Rail Enquiries App. I just want someone to acknowledge it. Not pretend it never happened and remain silent. I doubt many other passengers check that mean sources of information to work out what might be going on.

South West Trains are very good on the whole but on those two services they are not so good at announcing delays.

 

[DarloRich]

It isn't about attribution. It's the passenger perception and blame culture that it the big issue at hand here.

I think that we should all take accountability for our own problems! The fractured nature of the industry doesn't help of course.

 

[ComUtoR]

I would gladly claim delay repay from Network Rail when it's their fault but I'm not allowed to. I don't include fatalities in that claim statement although currently technically they do pay for them.

It puts a TOC at the front line of complaints. It's better to have a single system but it has the side affect of negativity towards the TOC.

the lack of communication. Now that is the TOCs fault.

Not always. Especially in the case where I'm up the front. My TOC does not contact me. I'm reliant on information from the Signaller. Same with points failures etc. The TOC is still reliant on information coming from NR for them to be able to pass the information on. Again, its not just the TOC who are at fault here. I've been there watching Nr fix a set of points in front of me and whilst casually talking with the MOM passengers are f'ing and blinding about SE and their "£"%"£%£ service.

If I miss my connection at Woking because we are 6 minutes late in and the guard remains silent, as is mostly the case it seems with the 17.39 and 18.40 services from Surbiton to Woking I'm not impressed.

Sometimes we just don't know.

I doubt many other passengers check that many sources of information to work out what might be going on.

You'd be surprised. I have often asked the passengers what is going on as they have access to twitter feeds etc but I'm left hanging in the dark.

Communication is bad and the times where we are at fault I'm happy to swallow the blame. I've lost count of the number of times we have been waiting on a block to come off and NR just saying nothing.

Please don't get me wrong and I'm not shifting blame to NR but it isn't always as simple as people think.

I think that we should all take accountability for our own problems! The fractured nature of the industry doesn't help of course.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[DarloRich]

EDIT - there are also times when we should all be stood in a line taking a kicking!

 

[BRblue]

This reply might upset a few posters on here who love having a dig at NR... but to be honest I don't really care.
For months now all I have heard is the constant moaning of local councillors and mp's about the state of the UK'S railways. Now the irony here is that it is those same mp's parties that are responsible for decades of chronic underinvestment which has led either directly or indirectly to the situation we now have.
The biggest gripe I have is listening to them bleating on about line closures for engineering works. They moaned about the closures over Christmas, they moan about overnight works which require an early end to service and they moan about diversions when those works are taking place.
Now if these same people had their way we would have a rail service that runs 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 52 weeks of the year. Perhaps they are so stupid that they misguidedly believe that we can maintain the rail infrastructure whilst running trains!
You cannot have it both ways and for a TOC to blame NR for poorly maintaining the rails is a pretty cheap shot in my opinion.
Yes NR could and should do better but you can only play with the hand you are dealt, and I think NR do pretty well all things considered. Perhaps some of the motormouths who constantly criticise us need to get out on the tracks and actually see what is involved in maintaining a railway.
During the last couple of months this country has endured some horrific weather which has caused untold damage to the railway infrastructure, a lot of it repaired in a short space of time. The more major damage is still being repaired and all this on top of your normal everyday maintenance.
You cannot have your cake and eat it, and it's about time people realised this and stop whinging.

 

[The Box Photter]

Its no good squabbling amongst yourselves. TOC blames NR, NR blames lack of investment, hundreds of man hours wasted in delay attribution. From the passenger's point of view the service is shoddy, unreliable and overpriced.

If you don't like working in a customer-facing role, then try something else. I believe the only service where the customers don't complain is funeral director.

If your management don't give you information when things go tits up, go on strike. Rail workers seem happy to strike for a myriad of reasons, surely its your employer's fault that when the solids hit the fan you get it in the neck from Billy commuter whose train is late again for an incomprehensible reason that you can't explain.

It is the passenger's RIGHT to complain, that's what the free market is all about.

At least in the bad/good old days of BR, the passenger knew the problem was the fault of a faceless monolith. Now as far as the passenger is concerned, their ticket was bought from the TOC, so its the TOC's job to get them where they want to go at the time they should arrive.

It makes me sick to see Southeastern bleating on about NR being unfit for purpose. The whole privatised railway is unfit for purpose, but they can't say that so long as they receive their cut of the franchise agreement plus compensation payments from NR. Perhaps Southeastern might be willing to forego their profits and plough the money back into updating the signalling, track and power supply. I'm not holding my breath though.

 

[ComUtoR]

It is the passenger's RIGHT to complain, that's what the free market is all about.

They should vote with their feet.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

This reply might upset a few posters on here who love having a dig at NR... but to be honest I don't really care.
For months now all I have heard is the constant moaning of local councillors and mp's about the state of the UK'S railways. Now the irony here is that it is those same mp's parties that are responsible for decades of chronic underinvestment which has led either directly or indirectly to the situation we now have.
The biggest gripe I have is listening to them bleating on about line closures for engineering works. They moaned about the closures over Christmas, they moan about overnight works which require an early end to service and they moan about diversions when those works are taking place.
Now if these same people had their way we would have a rail service that runs 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 52 weeks of the year. Perhaps they are so stupid that they misguidedly believe that we can maintain the rail infrastructure whilst running trains!
You cannot have it both ways and for a TOC to blame NR for poorly maintaining the rails is a pretty cheap shot in my opinion.
Yes NR could and should do better but you can only play with the hand you are dealt, and I think NR do pretty well all things considered. Perhaps some of the motormouths who constantly criticise us need to get out on the tracks and actually see what is involved in maintaining a railway.
During the last couple of months this country has endured some horrific weather which has caused untold damage to the railway infrastructure, a lot of it repaired in a short space of time. The more major damage is still being repaired and all this on top of your normal everyday maintenance.
You cannot have your cake and eat it, and it's about time people realised this and stop whinging.

This needs a standing ovation and plentiful applause.

 

[VauxhallandI]

This needs a standing ovation and plentiful applause.

Seconded

 

[HowardGWR]

This needs a standing ovation and plentiful applause.

Yes and there is no rail supporter on here who does not agree. The problem is that we are .001 percent of the population. All right I'll give you .01 %. That is one in 100, 000.

 

[Taunton]

It is indeed the responsibility of TOCs, as the ones who have the customers and take their revenue, to manage their suppliers. All of their suppliers. That includes NR. Exactly the same if the diesel supplier doesn't deliver the fuel, or the trains break down, or the workforce aren't recruited in adequate numbers. It's all the TOC's responsibility, firstly to avoid such problems, and secondly if they do arise to organise themselves to overcome them in the shortest possible time.

It's notable here that they are blaming NR for works on the line, which are later reported as conductor rail problems, and then that this was somehow damaged. Now in my recollection most conductor rail damage is caused by something on a train, not the fixed plant, and the trains are the TOCs.

 

[infobleep]

It puts a TOC at the front line of complaints. It's better to have a single system but it has the side affect of negativity towards the TOC.



Not always. Especially in the case where I'm up the front. My TOC does not contact me. I'm reliant on information from the Signaller. Same with points failures etc. The TOC is still reliant on information coming from NR for them to be able to pass the information on. Again, its not just the TOC who are at fault here. I've been there watching Nr fix a set of points in front of me and whilst casually talking with the MOM passengers are f'ing and blinding about SE and their "£"%"£%£ service.




Sometimes we just don't know.


You'd be surprised. I have often asked the passengers what is going on as they have access to twitter feeds etc but I'm left hanging in the dark.

Communication is bad and the times where we are at fault I'm happy to swallow the blame. I've lost count of the number of times we have been waiting on a block to come off and NR just saying nothing.

Please don't get me wrong and I'm not shifting blame to NR but it isn't always as simple as people think.



My thoughts exactly.

Well in such circumstances a simple I don't know but if I find out I will let you know will do. I'm assuming one has time to do that of course. There may be times when you don't.

Even that would satisfy me. Perhaps I'd be in the minority on that point.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This reply might upset a few posters on here who love having a dig at NR... but to be honest I don't really care.
For months now all I have heard is the constant moaning of local councillors and mp's about the state of the UK'S railways. Now the irony here is that it is those same mp's parties that are responsible for decades of chronic underinvestment which has led either directly or indirectly to the situation we now have.
The biggest gripe I have is listening to them bleating on about line closures for engineering works. They moaned about the closures over Christmas, they moan about overnight works which require an early end to service and they moan about diversions when those works are taking place.
Now if these same people had their way we would have a rail service that runs 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 52 weeks of the year. Perhaps they are so stupid that they misguidedly believe that we can maintain the rail infrastructure whilst running trains!
You cannot have it both ways and for a TOC to blame NR for poorly maintaining the rails is a pretty cheap shot in my opinion.
Yes NR could and should do better but you can only play with the hand you are dealt, and I think NR do pretty well all things considered. Perhaps some of the motormouths who constantly criticise us need to get out on the tracks and actually see what is involved in maintaining a railway.
During the last couple of months this country has endured some horrific weather which has caused untold damage to the railway infrastructure, a lot of it repaired in a short space of time. The more major damage is still being repaired and all this on top of your normal everyday maintenance.
You cannot have your cake and eat it, and it's about time people realised this and stop whinging.

Well they did that back in my day and it never hurt anyone. I'm still here.

[joke by the way. I was only born in 70s].

 

[Antman]

shock horror - company under scrutiny goes on attack to try to deflect blame. Old School PR tactics at their best

Hardly, most of the major delays on Southeastern recently are down to NR so why shouldn't they say so?

 

[talldave]

Over the last couple of days I've kept an eye on Southeastern's Twitter feed and was surprised at the number of signalling issues occurring. So it seems only fair to point out where the problems lie?

 

[EM2]

Perhaps Southeastern might be willing to forego their profits and plough the money back into updating the signalling, track and power supply. I'm not holding my breath though.

Govia's profit from rail operations last year was in the region of £25 million.
From http://www.railpro.co.uk/railpro-magazine/magazine-archives/spreading-signalling-costs:

The average cost per kilometre to upgrade the signalling on a 30km electrified commuter route with last generation signalling was £1.4m

so it wouldn't be going far.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Seems to have been overall) a very rough start to the New Year with infrastructure issues of various kinds - on such a tight railway with the (ongoing) London Bridge HL works - it is making a tough job even tougher all round.

Having had some "previous" - even when Southeastern delivered respectable punctuality and reliability - they still end up with a fairly negative public perception. Nothing new in that of course.

Am sure there is a lot of nasty / antisocial work going on out there in this miserable weather to keep the trains rolling.