Southeastern appeal help

[Haywain]

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 May 2023 ==

I did post a photo of the ticket posted online

You appear to have posted the letter regarding the appeal and the penalty fare notice but not the ticket that was purchased.

 

[Sunandsea]

I'd agree - after a period during Covid where there were only very few ticket checks, SouthEastern (SE) appear to have returned to them with a vengeance. All trains from Newington will have a "conductor" (I use the generic term), and they ought to have been visible on the platform, either at Newington or the next station. I have also known people to knock on the back cab door. However, it's worth noting some conductors will focus on doors only until past Rochester or Bromley, so they can to the entire check in one sweep. However, as the PF was issued at 07:32, that seems unlikely here.


I suspect this is because SE operate a penalty fare, Newington is (I believe) a penalty fare station, and the ticket was purchased after the train left, so was not held when boarding.


That seems very soon after the train departed (i.e. she didn't make active attempts to find the conductor on board, just on the platform), but then at the same time, very harsh to issue a penalty fare. Did your daughter attempt to find the guard by walking through the train, or only at Newington? The next station is Rainham, 4 minutes away, so the conductor could plausibly have "disappeared", but not for very long (your daughter would have basically been at Rainham when the confirmation came through).


I've not paid cash using an SE ticket machine for some time, but I have seen some payment machines where they will not allow overpayment, so would 'grey out' cash as an option if it couldn't give change. Noting the appeal letter says tickets were sold before and after your daughter attempted so, could that have been an issue? Could the conductor have seen passengers with tickets purchased at that ticket machine, so reports of it not working seemed suspicious?
However, I can understand why some would regard it as odd that she wanted to purchase a ticket using cash at the station, but then paid for it online (and thus direct from a bank account) when it didn't work. There may be very valid reasons, and that's not for me/us to judge, but it's the sort of thing someone looking critically will pick up on.

She always pays for her ticket using cash as like to keep her card for emergencies only as I have to top it up etc
There are 2 options to pay & it shouldn’t be deemed suspicious that she wanted to pay cash at the vending machine. She had to pay using her card for the online as there’s no other way of completing the transaction.
As mentioned earlier the problem isn’t the payment it’s the fact that when she was trying to use the keyboards (to select destination) it kept freezing thus unable to proceed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 May 2023 ==

Way forward now might be for you to draft up what you want to say in a 3rd stage appeal (this may include points you have already tried to make to them) so that people can comment or suggest edits to that draft. Hopefully there are now enough observations from forum members to indicate the key points to stress to them again.

I would include making it 100% clear that the desired method pf payment was cash (you can even stress this is because it is a child that this concerns) but having exhausted all attempts to pay with cash she reluctantly tried to buy a ticket using phone precisely in order to ensure she had a valid ticket in the absence of the railway providing a reasonable method by which she could pay - but is now being penalised for doing this.

Have a go at drafting it up and then people will comment - try and get this done ASAP so you can get back to them quickly.

thank you, just finished work. Will get it done once I get home

 

[AdamWW]

Thank you all for your comments. My daughter purchased the ticket once on the train from Newington to Selhurst. I am also confused about how in their statement it clearly says *Some conductors or guards are not authorised to issue penalty fares and they may check and SELL TICKETS in transit, I mean how confusing is this? It is very misleading, should be one way or the other.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 May 2023 ==

Here is a screenshot of the ticket purchased online.

I think there is a lot that is questionable in that document.

Such as the view that when the law refers to a "valid ticket" that excludes one bought on the train because it should have been purchased before boarding.

Likewise they seem to be saying that you must buy a ticket before boarding if some method of acquiring one at the station is present, even if you can't use it (e.g. only have cash and the machine only takes cards).

Added: And the idea that the fact that other people sucessfully used the machine is "positive proof" that it wasn't faulty is also somewhat questionable. I'm sure most people here have at some point in their lives used a PC which slowed down for unknown reasons then came back to life. I have myself seen a TVM which was completely unresponsive, then a few minutes later someone else came along and used it without problems. I suspect they are running Windows not a real time operating system.

 

[island]

However, it's worth noting some conductors will focus on doors only until past Rochester or Bromley, so they can to the entire check in one sweep. However, as the PF was issued at 07:32, that seems unlikely here.

Southeastern guards do not issue penalty fares, the penalty fare would have been issued by a revenue protection inspector.

 

[fandroid]

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 May 2023 ==

I did post a photo of the ticket posted online

I can only see the letter responding to the appeal plus the penalty notice issued by the inspector

 

[duncombec]

She always pays for her ticket using cash as like to keep her card for emergencies only as I have to top it up etc
There are 2 options to pay & it shouldn’t be deemed suspicious that she wanted to pay cash at the vending machine. She had to pay using her card for the online as there’s no other way of completing the transaction.

You're right, it shouldn't - but unfortunately, there will always be one who is!

As mentioned earlier the problem isn’t the payment it’s the fact that when she was trying to use the keyboards (to select destination) it kept freezing thus unable to proceed.

Understood - I have had the same issue in the past, especially with older touch screen displays of any sort (not just ticket machines), so I appreciate the issue. Not that "some bloke online" having the same issue will help with your appeal, but that may explain any discord between other passengers being able to use them and your daughter. It was actually working, just your daughter couldn't get it to work, if that makes sense.

Southeastern guards do not issue penalty fares, the penalty fare would have been issued by a revenue protection inspector.

Doh! Rookie mistake there; of course they don't. It's worth noting that SouthEastern seem to be very hot on this at the moment - I've never seen so many revenue blocks at stations as I have over the last year. It seems as though they've taken a very hard-line interpretation of the rules, and determined that no ticket was held on boarding.

 

[MotCO]

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 May 2023 ==

I did post a photo of the ticket posted online

None of us seem to be able to find it - can you repost it. (ps there was a copy of the penalty fare shown, but what we are looking for is a copy of the on-line ticket your daugter bought - or screen shot if only available as an e-ticket.)

What may be useful is if your daughter can confirm she bought the on-line ticket before she saw the 'conductor' coming through the train - otherwise, it may look as though she only bought a ticket becuse she saw the 'conductor'. If she bought the ticket as soon as she sat down, she should have bought it by 7.30, but this is remarkably close to when the penalty fare was issued, given that there would have been a conversation with the 'conductor' before the penalty fare was issued. I'm not disbelieving what your daughter has said or did, just trying to look at it through the 'conductor's' eyes.

However, having said all that, as she did not have an opportunity to buy a ticket before boarding, she did not need to buy an on-line ticket so the point is a bit moot.

 

[Sunandsea]

None of us seem to be able to find it - can you repost it. (ps there was a copy of the penalty fare shown, but what we are looking for is a copy of the on-line ticket your daugter bought - or screen shot if only available as an e-ticket.)

What may be useful is if your daughter can confirm she bought the on-line ticket before she saw the 'conductor' coming through the train - otherwise, it may look as though she only bought a ticket becuse she saw the 'conductor'. If she bought the ticket as soon as she sat down, she should have bought it by 7.30, but this is remarkably close to when the penalty fare was issued, given that there would have been a conversation with the 'conductor' before the penalty fare was issued. I'm not disbelieving what your daughter has said or did, just trying to look at it through the 'conductor's' eyes.

However, having said all that, as she did not have an opportunity to buy a ticket before boarding, she did not need to buy an on-line ticket so the point is a bit moot.

 

[30907]

I fear the issue is, as island stated in #12 and #14 that she bought online a ticket that had to be collected (as the screenshot shows). Until she did this, it could have been refunded, and this is a common method of fare evasion.
I am not, of course, suggesting that this was her intention, but it could explain why the PF was issued
I would argue that it is a very unsatisfactory situation that random tickets cannot be obtained as E-Tickets while others from the same station can (I assume).
I am not sure how to incorporate the point into an appeal, and others may think it not worth trying.

In answer to Motco, the ticket was bought 8min before the PF was issued.

 

[Sunandsea]

The confirmation email of the ticket purchased online was received at 07:24

 

[furlong]

Is it possible to see more information about the ticket beyond that screenshot? Eg. showing as a minimum the amount paid, but preferably also showing the other details including the trains selected and ticket types.

(The mention of 'splitsave' in the first screenshot is interesting.)

These things are unlikely to be material, but it's still worth checking that there weren't multiple reasons it wasn't valid.

 

[Sunandsea]

Is it possible to see more information about the ticket beyond that screenshot? Eg. showing as a minimum the amount paid, but preferably also showing the other details including the trains selected and ticket types.

(The mention of 'splitsave' in the first screenshot is interesting.)

These things are unlikely to be material, but it's still worth checking that there weren't multiple reasons it wasn't valid.

 

[furlong]

So splitsave indeed broke that into 3 separate tickets, requiring the journey to follow that specific route.

The first ticket was to Bromley South.

Assuming these were child tickets?

The Penalty Fare was issued all the way to Selhurst based on £13.35, the Anytime not HS1 fare.

 

[Sunandsea]

I am in the process of doing the appeal. Can I make reference to the previous reasons given as to why the appeal was unsuccessful? Or do I not mention anything?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 May 2023 ==

So splitsave indeed broke that into 3 separate tickets, requiring the journey to follow that specific route.

The first ticket was to Bromley South.

Assuming these were child tickets?

The Penalty Fare was issued all the way to Selhurst based on £13.35, the Anytime not HS1 fare.

My daughter uploaded her destination and that was the route given

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 May 2023 ==

I am in the process of doing the appeal. Can I make reference to the previous reasons given as to why the appeal was unsuccessful? Or do I not mention anything?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 May 2023 ==


My daughter uploaded her destination and that was the route given

and yes child tickets as under 16

 

[furlong]

OK, so I think we've gathered the information. This will take a little while to unpack, so don't rush into it.

The first thing that stands out is that the train didn't call at Selhurst so I don't think the Penalty Fare was issued in accordance with the regulations which say it must be issued to a station at which the train called.

Now under the old regulations from 2002, there was an exception where this could be done for children but I don't think that has been carried forward into the current regulations.

 

[MotCO]

Thanks.

Unfortunately, the screenshot does say that this is not a ticket.

Your daughter was charged with not having a valid ticket. The fact that she had bought one on-line is partial mitigation, but in theory she could have not collected it and received a refund. The only real defence is to continue to argue that the TVM had frozen, and therefore there was no opportunity to buy a ticket beforehand, but that she had tried to mitigate by trying to buy on-line.

Edit - for clarity, responding to post #38, but posting was delayed

 

[Sunandsea]

OK, so I think we've gathered the information. This will take a little while to unpack, so don't rush into it.

The first thing that stands out is that the train didn't call at Selhurst so I don't think the Penalty Fare was issued in accordance with the regulations which say it must be issued to a station at which the train called.

Now under the old regulations from 2002, there was an exception where this could be done for children but I don't think that has been carried forward into the current regulations.T

Thank you. The decision of my 2nd appeal was received on the 3rd of May. It states that I have 14 days to re-appeal

Thanks.

Unfortunately, the screenshot does say that this is not a ticket.

Your daughter was charged with not having a valid ticket. The fact that she had bought one on-line is partial mitigation, but in theory she could have not collected it and received a refund. The only real defence is to continue to argue that the TVM had frozen, and therefore there was no opportunity to buy a ticket beforehand, but that she had tried to mitigate by trying to buy on-line.

 

[paul1609]

So splitsave indeed broke that into 3 separate tickets, requiring the journey to follow that specific route.

The first ticket was to Bromley South.

Assuming these were child tickets?

The Penalty Fare was issued all the way to Selhurst based on £13.35, the Anytime not HS1 fare.

Its actually 2 tickets (split at Bromley South) but they wouldnt have been valid beyond Rochester on the train she was on as that is then fast to London Bridge.
The route shown on the trainline ticket is actually the fastest in the morning peak so there was no advantage to being on the earlier train.

 

[furlong]

The regulations are currently only in the form of original plus amendments so are rather awkward to quote from but you do need to do this in the appeal so there can be no doubt, and then I think the primary reason for the appeal should be that it was issued to an incorrect station and for an incorrect amount. The other things discussed can be mentioned too, but unless I've missed something, I don't think it's valid because it should have been issued to whichever was the next station - Gillingham or Chatham - accompanied by advice to collect the tickets ordered online from that station and continue the journey on the Victoria train via Bromley South, as already paid for.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 May 2023 ==

The regulations are here - https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/regulation/9 - but that only makes sense after you also click on and read the dropdown 'amendment' part here https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/1094/regulation/4/made for example. The logic is that the PF authorises travel to a station at which the train calls, and then the amount it's issued for gets derived from where that lets you travel.
The appeal is based on 16(3)(a).
Then you add in the additional grounds (machine not fully functional - a couple of successful transactions doesn't disprove that) also under 16(3)(a), plus that correct tickets had been purchased online albeit not yet collected under 16(3)(d).


Sorry I don't have time to write this for you - there was a good template for an appeal in a recent thread here but I can't find it - perhaps someone else can assist?

 

[Sunandsea]

The regulations are currently only in the form of original plus amendments so are rather awkward to quote from but you do need to do this in the appeal so there can be no doubt, and then I think the primary reason for the appeal should be that it was issued to an incorrect station and for an incorrect amount. The other things discussed can be mentioned too, but unless I've missed something, I don't think it's valid because it should have been issued to whichever was the next station - Gillingham or Chatham - accompanied by advice to collect the tickets ordered online from that station and continue the journey on the Victoria train via Bromley South, as already paid for.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 May 2023 ==

The regulations are here - https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/regulation/9 - but that only makes sense after you also click on and read the dropdown 'amendment' part here https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/1094/regulation/4/made for example. The logic is that the PF authorises travel to a station at which the train calls, and then the amount it's issued for gets derived from where that lets you travel.
The appeal is based on 16(3)(a).
Then you add in the additional grounds (machine not fully functional - a couple of successful transactions doesn't disprove that) also under 16(3)(a), plus that correct tickets had been purchased online albeit not yet collected under 16(3)(d).


Sorry I don't have time to write this for you - there was a good template for an appeal in a recent thread here but I can't find it - perhaps someone else can assist?

Thank you so much I really appreciate all your help

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 May 2023 ==

Evening I am trying to find the template for the appeal but haven't been able to find it. Can anyone help me pls?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 May 2023 ==

Morning,
Is anyone able to help me locate the template for the appeal?
Thank you in advance

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you so much I really appreciate all your help

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 May 2023 ==

Evening I am trying to find the template for the appeal but haven't been able to find it. Can anyone help me pls?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 May 2023 ==

Morning,
Is anyone able to help me locate the template for the appeal?
Thank you in advance

Sorry - I have no detailed knowledge on this but can you not simply write to the appeal address setting out that it is your third appeal and e-mail it or post it? O have looked at the Appeal Service website linked from SE trains page on Penalty Fares and this is what I find - hope it helps

I see 2 entries for SE Trains on here but you have probably found that already

Penalty Services Ltd - Make an appeal

But on the FAQ's provided by the Appeal Service it has a section relating to people under 18 which may be pertinent - and also gives a postal address as well as a PDF form you can download (hope the link here also works)

You could download the pdf form - fill it in and make it clear in one of the boxes that "this is a 3rd stage appeal please see attached appeal grounds" and then type that up and attach it to the pdf making sure that the typed up attachment has all the same reference number and address details so the case can be matched if it gets detached from the form.

This is what it says (cut and pasted:

Appeals must be made in writing online here:

Make an Appeal

Or by post to: Penalty Services, P.O. Box. 1258, King’s Lynn, PE30 9GJ

If you wish to make an appeal on behalf of someone else, you may download an Appeal Form here.

If you are appealing on behalf of someone else, in order to comply with the General Data Protection Regulation 2018 (GDPR), you will need to either declare yourself as the parent/guardian of an under 18 year old, or, provide evidence of their consent or, provide a copy of your authority to act on their behalf before your appeal can be processed. The need to provide authority also includes if you are a parent/guardian of a passenger who is 18 years or older. If authority to act on behalf of the named person on the notice is authorised by a document such as a Power of Attorney or Court of Protection, you will need to submit a copy of this authority.

You should explain why the person you are appealing for was unable to produce a valid ticket or other authority to travel and provide any further information or evidence to support your explanation when appealing within 21 days beginning the day after you received your notice. The Assessor will not be able to obtain evidence or contact witnesses on your behalf so it is important that you include everything that you feel will help to support your appeal.

Please ensure you apply adequate postage to your letter as we do not pay excess postage fees and we will not receive your appeal.

 

[Sunandsea]

Sorry - I have no detailed knowledge on this but can you not simply write to the appeal address setting out that it is your third appeal and e-mail it or post it? O have looked at the Appeal Service website linked from SE trains page on Penalty Fares and this is what I find - hope it helps

I see 2 entries for SE Trains on here but you have probably found that already

Penalty Services Ltd - Make an appeal

But on the FAQ's provided by the Appeal Service it has a section relating to people under 18 which may be pertinent - and also gives a postal address as well as a PDF form you can download (hope the link here also works)

You could download the pdf form - fill it in and make it clear in one of the boxes that "this is a 3rd stage appeal please see attached appeal grounds" and then type that up and attach it to the pdf making sure that the typed up attachment has all the same reference number and address details so the case can be matched if it gets detached from the form.

This is what it says (cut and pasted:

Appeals must be made in writing online here:

Make an Appeal

Or by post to: Penalty Services, P.O. Box. 1258, King’s Lynn, PE30 9GJ

If you wish to make an appeal on behalf of someone else, you may download an Appeal Form here.

If you are appealing on behalf of someone else, in order to comply with the General Data Protection Regulation 2018 (GDPR), you will need to either declare yourself as the parent/guardian of an under 18 year old, or, provide evidence of their consent or, provide a copy of your authority to act on their behalf before your appeal can be processed. The need to provide authority also includes if you are a parent/guardian of a passenger who is 18 years or older. If authority to act on behalf of the named person on the notice is authorised by a document such as a Power of Attorney or Court of Protection, you will need to submit a copy of this authority.

You should explain why the person you are appealing for was unable to produce a valid ticket or other authority to travel and provide any further information or evidence to support your explanation when appealing within 21 days beginning the day after you received your notice. The Assessor will not be able to obtain evidence or contact witnesses on your behalf so it is important that you include everything that you feel will help to support your appeal.

Please ensure you apply adequate postage to your letter as we do not pay excess postage fees and we will not receive your appeal.

Thank you. I was just going by the previous post by member furlong mentioned that there is a good template for an appeal on a previous thread but couldn't find it. This is my 3rd appeal and wanted to make sure I had everything covered

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you. I was just going by the previous post by member furlong mentioned that there is a good template for an appeal on a previous thread but couldn't find it. This is my 3rd appeal and wanted to make sure I had everything covered

sorry - I misunderstood! I guess @furlong meant a response someone else sent at 3rd stage.

It may have been this one now I think about - 3rd stage letter draft would be towards the end. If so it's not really a 'template' and the circs are a bit different but you may get some ideas. Apols if this is incorrect case!

see posts 30 and 37 in particular, but also of course the advice people gave

Northern Penalty Fare - Help please

Hi all, I’ve just had a stage 2 appeal rejected and would appreciate some advice before I put a stage 3 appeal in. I’ll not add an additional summary, I’ll just quote below the information we used in the appeal and hopefully that is enough for some experts on here to advise. Sorry if it’s a...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Sunandsea]

Sorry - I have no detailed knowledge on this but can you not simply write to the appeal address setting out that it is your third appeal and e-mail it or post it? O have looked at the Appeal Service website linked from SE trains page on Penalty Fares and this is what I find - hope it helps

I see 2 entries for SE Trains on here but you have probably found that already

Penalty Services Ltd - Make an appeal

But on the FAQ's provided by the Appeal Service it has a section relating to people under 18 which may be pertinent - and also gives a postal address as well as a PDF form you can download (hope the link here also works)

You could download the pdf form - fill it in and make it clear in one of the boxes that "this is a 3rd stage appeal please see attached appeal grounds" and then type that up and attach it to the pdf making sure that the typed up attachment has all the same reference number and address details so the case can be matched if it gets detached from the form.

This is what it says (cut and pasted:

Appeals must be made in writing online here:

Make an Appeal

Or by post to: Penalty Services, P.O. Box. 1258, King’s Lynn, PE30 9GJ

If you wish to make an appeal on behalf of someone else, you may download an Appeal Form here.

If you are appealing on behalf of someone else, in order to comply with the General Data Protection Regulation 2018 (GDPR), you will need to either declare yourself as the parent/guardian of an under 18 year old, or, provide evidence of their consent or, provide a copy of your authority to act on their behalf before your appeal can be processed. The need to provide authority also includes if you are a parent/guardian of a passenger who is 18 years or older. If authority to act on behalf of the named person on the notice is authorised by a document such as a Power of Attorney or Court of Protection, you will need to submit a copy of this authority.

You should explain why the person you are appealing for was unable to produce a valid ticket or other authority to travel and provide any further information or evidence to support your explanation when appealing within 21 days beginning the day after you received your notice. The Assessor will not be able to obtain evidence or contact witnesses on your behalf so it is important that you include everything that you feel will help to support your appeal.

Please ensure you apply adequate postage to your letter as we do not pay excess postage fees and we will not receive your appeal.

Thank you. I was just going by the previous post by member furlong mentioned that there is a good template for an appeal on a previous thread but couldn't find it. This is my 3rd appeal and wanted to make sure I had everything

The regulations are currently only in the form of original plus amendments so are rather awkward to quote from but you do need to do this in the appeal so there can be no doubt, and then I think the primary reason for the appeal should be that it was issued to an incorrect station and for an incorrect amount. The other things discussed can be mentioned too, but unless I've missed something, I don't think it's valid because it should have been issued to whichever was the next station - Gillingham or Chatham - accompanied by advice to collect the tickets ordered online from that station and continue the journey on the Victoria train via Bromley South, as already paid for.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 May 2023 ==

The regulations are here - https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/regulation/9 - but that only makes sense after you also click on and read the dropdown 'amendment' part here https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/1094/regulation/4/made for example. The logic is that the PF authorises travel to a station at which the train calls, and then the amount it's issued for gets derived from where that lets you travel.
The appeal is based on 16(3)(a).
Then you add in the additional grounds (machine not fully functional - a couple of successful transactions doesn't disprove that) also under 16(3)(a), plus that correct tickets had been purchased online albeit not yet collected under 16(3)(d).


Sorry I don't have time to write this for you - there was a good template for an appeal in a recent thread here but I can't find it - perhaps someone else can assist?

covered

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 May 2023 ==

Apologies but I'm trying to write the 3rd appeal but struggling in terms of the legislation as can't seem to locate 16 (3)(d) as advised by @furlong. I have clicked on the links but can't find them. Just want to make sure that I get the legal terminology correct if that makes sense. Can anyone help me pls

 

[furlong]

see posts 30 and 37 in particular, but also of course the advice people gave

Northern Penalty Fare - Help please

Hi all, I’ve just had a stage 2 appeal rejected and would appreciate some advice before I put a stage 3 appeal in. I’ll not add an additional summary, I’ll just quote below the information we used in the appeal and hopefully that is enough for some experts on here to advise. Sorry if it’s a...

www.railforums.co.uk

It's not the example I was thinking of, but it's a respectable example of how to write this.

Apologies but I'm trying to write the 3rd appeal but struggling in terms of the legislation as can't seem to locate 16 (3)(d)

It is quoted in that post 30 example - direct link is here - https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/regulation/16

The key thing is to quote each part of the (amended) regulations that your appeal depends on, so the panel does not have to cross-reference anything to decide it. Don't assume they are familiar with the requirement only to issue it to a station at which the train calls - that's the key thing you need to show them unambiguously by quoting the right things in the right order. Make it easy for them to follow the logic and decide in your favour, without leaving any gaps or making assumptions about anything.

 

[Sunandsea]

It's not the example I was thinking of, but it's a respectable example of how to write this.



It is quoted in that post 30 example - direct link is here - https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/regulation/16

The key thing is to quote each part of the (amended) regulations that your appeal depends on, so the panel does not have to cross-reference anything to decide it. Don't assume they are familiar with the requirement only to issue it to a station at which the train calls - that's the key thing you need to show them unambiguously by quoting the right things in the right order. Make it easy for them to follow the logic and decide in your favour, without leaving any gaps or making assumptions about anything.

Sorry I am just a bit confused about it all. Can I just confirm, my daughter, was traveling from Newington to Selhurst which requires a change at Victoria. The PFN was issued at Gillingham, station as this must have been where the inspectors got on. What does it mean by the requirement only to issue to a station at which the train calls?
Apologies for all the questions

 

[island]

Sorry I am just a bit confused about it all. Can I just confirm, my daughter, was traveling from Newington to Selhurst which requires a change at Victoria. The PFN was issued at Gillingham, station as this must have been where the inspectors got on. What does it mean by the requirement only to issue to a station at which the train calls?
Apologies for all the question

When a penalty fare is issued on a train, the destination on the penalty fare must be a station at which that train is scheduled to call.

 

[MotCO]

Sorry I am just a bit confused about it all. Can I just confirm, my daughter, was traveling from Newington to Selhurst which requires a change at Victoria. The PFN was issued at Gillingham, station as this must have been where the inspectors got on. What does it mean by the requirement only to issue to a station at which the train calls?
Apologies for all the questions

I think it means that the penalty fare should only be from Gillingham to Victoria; the first train your daughter was on did not call at Selhurst.

 

[island]

I think it means that the penalty fare should only be from Gillingham to Victoria; the first train your daughter was on did not call at Selhurst.

Newington to Gillingham would have been correct, or Newington to Victoria or to any other station the train called at.

 

[Sunandsea]

Hi, is this ok?


Dear members of the panel,

Please find below the reasons for the appeal.

My 15y/o daughter tried to purchase a ticket using the vending machine but unfortunately, the keyboard was frozen and unable to proceed. She tried several times without avail, she went to the kiosk to find a member of staff but it was closed and no other member of staff was available to help. Once she boarded the train she tried to find a conductor but couldn't find one so she purchased a ticket online as she didn’t want to be traveling without having paid for the journey. It has been suggested that the vending machine was working for other passengers, this was not the case for my daughter and as a consequence had no way of producing a paper ticket. Please note that in the past I too have experienced issues with a vending machine but have then had the option to purchase from a kiosk, this was not the case for my daughter and it feels like she is being penalised for trying to be proactive and not travel without having paid for her journey.

The National Rail Conditions of Travel clearly states the following;

6.1.3 At the station where you start your journey, there is no means of purchasing a Ticket, because - VENDING MACHINE KEYBOARD FROZEN AND KIOSK CLOSED. UNBALE TO PURCHASE A TICKET BEFORE BOARDING THE TRAIN.

6.1.3.1 The Ticket office is closed; or the TICKET OFFICE WAS CLOSED ON THE 21ST MARCH 2023. NO MEMBER OF STAFF AVAILABLE TO HELP.

6.1.3.2 A self service ticket machine is not in working order, or will not accept your preferred method of payment (card or cash); or VENDING MACHINE TOUCHSCREEN FROZEN WHEN PRESSING DOWN ON TABS. UNABLE TO PROCEED AFTER SEVERAL ATTEMPTS.

16 (3) (A) the penalty fare was not charged in accordance with the requirements of the regulations.
THE PENALTY FARE ISSUED IS INCORRECT AS UNDER THE REGULATIONS IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN ISSUED AT THE NEXT STATION AND ADVISED TO COLLECT THE TICKETS ORDERED ONLINE AS ALREADY PAID FOR.