Southeastern appeal help

[Sunandsea]

Hi, in need of some advice, please. I am currently on my 3rd appeal. My 15 y/o daughter was trying to get a ticket at Newington, Kent (vending machine) but it kept freezing, and unable to proceed. Unfortunately, the kiosk was closed. Once she boarded the train she tried to find a conductor to purchase a ticket but couldn't find one. In the meantime, she purchased a ticket online (trainline) but was still issued with a PFN. I have tried arguing this on both my appeals but have been unsuccessful. The reason given is that other customers were able to purchase a ticket. Any help will be very much appreciated. Thank you

This was my second appeal;

RE: Traveling from Newington to Selhurst

I am very disappointed with the outcome of my previous appeal as I do not agree with the decision. My daughter had tried to purchase her ticket at the vending machine but every time she pressed the screen it kept freezing. She tried to purchase a ticket from the ticket office but unfortunately it was closed as they only open on certain days which are Monday 6:10 am to 10:10 am and Friday 6:10 am to 10:10 am.

The National Rail Conditions of Travel clearly states the following;

6.1.3 At the station where you start your journey, there is no means of purchasing a Ticket, because

6.1.3.1 the Ticket office is closed; or TICKET OFFICE WAS CLOSED ON THE 21ST MARCH 2023

6.1.3.2 a self service ticket machine is not in working order, or will not accept your preferred method of payment (card or cash); or VENDING MACHINE TOUCHSCREEN FROZEN WHEN PRESSING DOWN ON TABS

In these cases, you must, as soon as you are reasonably able to, buy an appropriate Ticket to complete your journey COULDN'T FIND A CONDUCTOR WHEN BOARDING THE TRAIN The price of the Ticket you purchase will be the same as if you had bought a Ticket at the action from which you first departed.

My daughter wanted to purchase the ticket at the train station, first at the vending machine which was not working as unable to proceed as the touchscreen kept freezing, and then at the kiosk which was closed.

Once she was on the train she looked for a conductor to buy a ticket but she couldn’t see one so she went online and purchased a ticket as this was now the only way that she was able to get a ticket. I noted that on the PFN the reason given is that the electronic ticket is not valid. My daughter purchased the ticket once she was on the train as per the reasons given above.

I feel that the reasons given above justify the reasons why she wasn't able to produce a paper ticket and ask that you please cancel the penalty fare notice.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi, in need of some advice, please. I am currently on my 3rd appeal. My 15 y/o daughter was trying to get a ticket at Newington, Kent (vending machine) but it kept freezing, and unable to proceed. Unfortunately, the kiosk was closed. Once she boarded the train she tried to find a conductor to purchase a ticket but couldn't find one. In the meantime, she purchased a ticket online (trainline) but was still issued with a PFN. I have tried arguing this on both my appeals but have been unsuccessful. The reason given is that other customers were able to purchase a ticket. Any help will be very much appreciated. Thank you

This was my second appeal;

RE: Traveling from Newington to Selhurst

I am very disappointed with the outcome of my previous appeal as I do not agree with the decision. My daughter had tried to purchase her ticket at the vending machine but every time she pressed the screen it kept freezing. She tried to purchase a ticket from the ticket office but unfortunately it was closed as they only open on certain days which are Monday 6:10 am to 10:10 am and Friday 6:10 am to 10:10 am.

The National Rail Conditions of Travel clearly states the following;

6.1.3 At the station where you start your journey, there is no means of purchasing a Ticket, because

6.1.3.1 the Ticket office is closed; or TICKET OFFICE WAS CLOSED ON THE 21ST MARCH 2023

6.1.3.2 a self service ticket machine is not in working order, or will not accept your preferred method of payment (card or cash); or VENDING MACHINE TOUCHSCREEN FROZEN WHEN PRESSING DOWN ON TABS

In these cases, you must, as soon as you are reasonably able to, buy an appropriate Ticket to complete your journey COULDN'T FIND A CONDUCTOR WHEN BOARDING THE TRAIN The price of the Ticket you purchase will be the same as if you had bought a Ticket at the action from which you first departed.

My daughter wanted to purchase the ticket at the train station, first at the vending machine which was not working as unable to proceed as the touchscreen kept freezing, and then at the kiosk which was closed.

Once she was on the train she looked for a conductor to buy a ticket but she couldn’t see one so she went online and purchased a ticket as this was now the only way that she was able to get a ticket. I noted that on the PFN the reason given is that the electronic ticket is not valid. My daughter purchased the ticket once she was on the train as per the reasons given above.

I feel that the reasons given above justify the reasons why she wasn't able to produce a paper ticket and ask that you please cancel the penalty fare notice.

Hi - there are some good experts on here re appealing penalty fares who will no doubt be along to advise you - I think I have read that it often takes up to the 3rd appeal for someone to read it carefully and consider it more thoroughly.

It looks like your daughter is being punished for trying to do the right thing in as much as she tried to pay before boarding, tried to find someone to pay (you are not strictly required to do this - the '1st opportunity to pay' might well be at your destination or where you might change trains and locate a working ticket machine or ticket office that was open for example) and then paid by phone, but after boarding.

The problem that I can see are (and it may be worth addressing in your 3rd appeal):

- if she had a phone to pay on why did she no use this instead of trying to use the ticket vending machine (TVM)? - I would explain on that that 'her chosen option to buy a ticket was the ticket machine but after repeated attempts to use it it failed to work, there was then no time to buy a ticket on the phone' (this is because the act of buying after boarding is the basis on which they have issued the Penalty Fare so this needs to be part of the appeal challenge and clearly stated as such I suspect)

- others will know if the trains from Newington to Selhurst have staff on board that sell tickets or if they are 'Driver Only Operated' for example - but that she looked for someone is worth stating again

 

[30907]

Just to clarify: is the reason given for the PF that she bought after boarding? If so, how far into the journey did she buy it, and how soon after was she challenged?

 

[spag23]

if she had a phone to pay on why did she no use this instead of trying to use the ticket vending machine (TVM)?

Because she was hoping to find a conductor on board? Same as someone who had no phone.

 

[paul1609]

Newington trains have a conductor, I don't use the North Kent Line but on the SEML the southeastern conductors are pretty vigilant with ticket checks. It's about an hour to London Victoria where you have to pass out of the barriers, past the tvms and ticket office back in through barriers for the Southern service to Selhurst.

 

[furlong]

In a situation like this, we would really need to see the paperwork. Can you upload pictures of the penalty fare issued, the ticket bought etc.? Cover up names and other identifying information. We need to understand why the inspector considered the electronic ticket not valid. (For example, if it was one that had to be collected from a machine at a station before use or was invalid in some other way.)

 

[glasgowniteowl]

I wonder how enforceable this penalty fare actually is on a minor, especially now that it has been appealed thus limiting other legal avenues for the toc

 

[AlterEgo]

Did the ticket she eventually bought cover her full journey?

 

[paul1609]

In a situation like this, we would really need to see the paperwork. Can you upload pictures of the penalty fare issued, the ticket bought etc.? Cover up names and other identifying information. We need to understand why the inspector considered the electronic ticket not valid. (For example, if it was one that had to be collected from a machine at a station before use or was invalid in some other way.)

Southeastern conductors can issue tod onboard.

 

[furlong]

(this is because the act of buying after boarding is the basis on which they have issued the Penalty Fare so this needs to be part of the appeal challenge and clearly stated as such I suspect)

I think there's some confusion here.

A ticket is not invalid merely because it is bought after boarding! If the ticket presented was valid, then no Penalty Fare could be issued.
Whether or not a byelaw offence was committed earlier on, at the point of boarding the train, is a separate matter which doesn't seem to be relevant here.

 

[Sunandsea]

Thank you all for your comments. My daughter purchased the ticket once on the train from Newington to Selhurst. I am also confused about how in their statement it clearly says *Some conductors or guards are not authorised to issue penalty fares and they may check and SELL TICKETS in transit, I mean how confusing is this? It is very misleading, should be one way or the other.

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Here is a screenshot of the ticket purchased online.

 

[island]

Did the ticket she eventually bought cover her full journey?

We need to understand why the inspector considered the electronic ticket not valid. (For example, if it was one that had to be collected from a machine at a station before use or was invalid in some other way.)

Newington to Selhurst can't be fulfilled as an e-ticket, only smartcard or ToD.

I wonder how enforceable this penalty fare actually is on a minor, especially now that it has been appealed thus limiting other legal avenues for the toc

Almost completely unenforceable. As an appeal has been concluded, a prosecution isn't possible, and train companies rarely if ever prosecute minors anyway. Options for civil action against a minor are also limited.

 

[simonw]

We quite often see on here cases where people have bought tickets on board, but because the train they are on has departed, Trainline (or other app) sells them a ticket only valid on a later train.

I wonder if this is the case here

 

[island]

We quite often see on here cases where people have bought tickets on board, but because the train they are on has departed, Trainline (or other app) sells them a ticket only valid on a later train.

I wonder if this is the case here

Very unlikely. The information given suggests the passenger was on the 07:21 Newington to Cannon Street. A cheaper ticket would have not have been valid on the next two trains; the off-peak would have been usable only on the 08:48 onwards. It is far more likely that the issue was the passenger chose to purchase a ticket that must be collected from a ticket machine, and had not collected it at the time she was seen by a revenue officer.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 May 2023 ==

Southeastern conductors can issue tod onboard.

They can, but the train used stops every 2-5 minutes during that part of the journey, so the guard would have been doing the doors, at least until Rochester.

 

[furlong]

Southeastern conductors can issue tod onboard.

That won't make any difference - the person can't be said to be in possession of a valid ticket of that type UNTIL it actually has been collected, and a Penalty Fare can be issued when a valid ticket isn't presented on demand - it's not "please wait a few minutes while I ask the conductor to issue it to me".

4.—(1) A person travelling by, present on, or leaving a train must, if required to do so by or on behalf of an operator, produce a valid travel ticket.

(I doubt the mistakes in the attached letter are material to the OP.)

The gaps in the time sequence of transactions certainly leave scope for the machine to have temporarily frozen (as anyone who uses machines a lot will be familiar, where they periodically "go slow" in various different ways) so I'd suggest more detailed information is needed about what the machines were doing during the key period. For example, at what time did the transaction recorded at 07:18 begin and was its duration typical? (At the least, compare the number of transactions with similar periods on similar days.)

 

[simonw]

Very unlikely. The information given suggests the passenger was on the 07:21 Newington to Cannon Street. A cheaper ticket would have not have been valid on the next two trains; the off-peak would have been usable only on the 08:48 onwards.

True, I hadn't been able to open the attachment before I posted.

 

[Sunandsea]

True, I hadn't been able to open the attachment before I posted.

My daughter purchased the ticket on the train, the time on the confirmation email was 07:24

 

[WesternLancer]

My daughter purchased the ticket on the train, the time on the confirmation email was 07:24

I take it the advice you need from people here is the key points to make in a 3rd stage appeal to ensure the best chance of the Appeal being upheld?

 

[Sunandsea]

I take it the advice you need from people here is the key points to make in a 3rd stage appeal to ensure the best chance of the Appeal being upheld?

Hi yes, just want to make sure I’m not missing anything. The bottom line is that my daughter tried to purchase a ticket from the vending machine & the kiosk.
Please note that she wanted to pay by cash

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 May 2023 ==

We quite often see on here cases where people have bought tickets on board, but because the train they are on has departed, Trainline (or other app) sells them a ticket only valid on a later train.

I wonder if this is the case here

Exactly this

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 May 2023 ==

Very unlikely. The information given suggests the passenger was on the 07:21 Newington to Cannon Street. A cheaper ticket would have not have been valid on the next two trains; the off-peak would have been usable only on the 08:48 onwards. It is far more likely that the issue was the passenger chose to purchase a ticket that must be collected from a ticket machine, and had not collected it at the time she was seen by a revenue officer.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 May 2023 ==


They can, but the train used stops every 2-5 minutes during that part of the journey, so the guard would have been doing the doors, at least until Rochester.

From what I understand the next train was at 7:46

 

[ChewChewTrain]

For future reference, if a vending machine isn’t working and you’re planning to use that as a defence then it’s never a bad idea to film yourself trying to buy a ticket on that machine.

 

[Sunandsea]

For future reference, if a vending machine isn’t working and you’re planning to use that as a defence then it’s never a bad idea to film yourself trying to buy a ticket on that machine.

I would have if I was there with my daughter but she was on her own & didn’t think to film it. She tried everything possible to purchase a ticket. Just feels like she’s (we) are being punished for not being able to purchase a ticket. Not only have they issued a penalty fare but also added the journey too.

 

[furlong]

Hi yes, just want to make sure I’m not missing anything. The bottom line is that my daughter tried to purchase a ticket from the vending machine & the kiosk.
Please note that she wanted to pay by cash

Does that vending machine take cash?
What method did she use to pay online? Would that same method have worked at the vending machine?

 

[Sunandsea]

Does that vending machine take cash?
What method did she use to pay online? Would that same method have worked at the vending machine?

Hi, yes it does take cash. She also has a credit card that she can use but prefer to pay by cash. For the online she pays by card

 

[spag23]

What method did she use to pay online? Would that same method have worked at the vending machine?

In post #1, the OP said the TVM was freezing. So I took it that no form of payment was available. The ticket office was closed too.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi yes, just want to make sure I’m not missing anything. The bottom line is that my daughter tried to purchase a ticket from the vending machine & the kiosk.
Please note that she wanted to pay by cash

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 May 2023 ==


Exactly this

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 May 2023 ==


From what I understand the next train was at 7:46

Way forward now might be for you to draft up what you want to say in a 3rd stage appeal (this may include points you have already tried to make to them) so that people can comment or suggest edits to that draft. Hopefully there are now enough observations from forum members to indicate the key points to stress to them again.

I would include making it 100% clear that the desired method pf payment was cash (you can even stress this is because it is a child that this concerns) but having exhausted all attempts to pay with cash she reluctantly tried to buy a ticket using phone precisely in order to ensure she had a valid ticket in the absence of the railway providing a reasonable method by which she could pay - but is now being penalised for doing this.

Have a go at drafting it up and then people will comment - try and get this done ASAP so you can get back to them quickly.

 

[londonbridge]

Hi - there are some good experts on here re appealing penalty fares who will no doubt be along to advise you - I think I have read that it often takes up to the 3rd appeal for someone to read it carefully and consider it more thoroughly.

It looks like your daughter is being punished for trying to do the right thing in as much as she tried to pay before boarding, tried to find someone to pay (you are not strictly required to do this - the '1st opportunity to pay' might well be at your destination or where you might change trains and locate a working ticket machine or ticket office that was open for example) and then paid by phone, but after boarding.

The problem that I can see are (and it may be worth addressing in your 3rd appeal):

- if she had a phone to pay on why did she not use this instead of trying to use the ticket vending machine (TVM)? - I would explain on that that 'her chosen option to buy a ticket was the ticket machine but after repeated attempts to use it it failed to work, there was then no time to buy a ticket on the phone' (this is because the act of buying after boarding is the basis on which they have issued the Penalty Fare so this needs to be part of the appeal challenge and clearly stated as such I suspect)

- others will know if the trains from Newington to Selhurst have staff on board that sell tickets or if they are 'Driver Only Operated' for example - but that she looked for someone is worth stating again

You are not obligated to use an app to purchase a ticket if there are no facilities available to purchase at your origin, which in this case there seemingly were not. They will presumably know the opening times of the ticket office so if their argument is that “other passengers were able to buy tickets” it may be down to proving that the TVM wasn’t working.

 

[WesternLancer]

You are not obligated to use an app to purchase a ticket if there are no facilities available to purchase at your origin, which in this case there seemingly were not. They will presumably know the opening times of the ticket office so if their argument is that “other passengers were able to buy tickets” it may be down to proving that the TVM wasn’t working.

Yes, and thus it's all about getting the wording of the stage 3 appeal correct and most impactful - I agree proof it was not working may be hard to do but it should be a focus to argue that - at the mo the debate with the train company / appeal service does not seem to be around that (ie them claiming it was fully functioning at the time concerned) so getting the focus on that is the key thing.

I think the OP needs to get something drafted up - because recent posts on the thread about various things are now (it seems to me) not of much further great practical help to the OP in lodging a successful appeal - which is what they want help with.

 

[furlong]

(We're still missing the details of the ticket that was purchased online - we had to assume it was ToD and had to assume it was correct in all other aspects.)

 

[duncombec]

Newington trains have a conductor, I don't use the North Kent Line but on the SEML the southeastern conductors are pretty vigilant with ticket checks. It's about an hour to London Victoria where you have to pass out of the barriers, past the tvms and ticket office back in through barriers for the Southern service to Selhurst.

[...] but the train used stops every 2-5 minutes during that part of the journey, so the guard would have been doing the doors, at least until Rochester.

I'd agree - after a period during Covid where there were only very few ticket checks, SouthEastern (SE) appear to have returned to them with a vengeance. All trains from Newington will have a "conductor" (I use the generic term), and they ought to have been visible on the platform, either at Newington or the next station. I have also known people to knock on the back cab door. However, it's worth noting some conductors will focus on doors only until past Rochester or Bromley, so they can to the entire check in one sweep. However, as the PF was issued at 07:32, that seems unlikely here.

We quite often see on here cases where people have bought tickets on board, but because the train they are on has departed, Trainline (or other app) sells them a ticket only valid on a later train.

I wonder if this is the case here

I suspect this is because SE operate a penalty fare, Newington is (I believe) a penalty fare station, and the ticket was purchased after the train left, so was not held when boarding.

My daughter purchased the ticket on the train, the time on the confirmation email was 07:24

That seems very soon after the train departed (i.e. she didn't make active attempts to find the conductor on board, just on the platform), but then at the same time, very harsh to issue a penalty fare. Did your daughter attempt to find the guard by walking through the train, or only at Newington? The next station is Rainham, 4 minutes away, so the conductor could plausibly have "disappeared", but not for very long (your daughter would have basically been at Rainham when the confirmation came through).

Hi, yes it does take cash. She also has a credit card that she can use but prefer to pay by cash. For the online she pays by card

I've not paid cash using an SE ticket machine for some time, but I have seen some payment machines where they will not allow overpayment, so would 'grey out' cash as an option if it couldn't give change. Noting the appeal letter says tickets were sold before and after your daughter attempted so, could that have been an issue? Could the conductor have seen passengers with tickets purchased at that ticket machine, so reports of it not working seemed suspicious?
However, I can understand why some would regard it as odd that she wanted to purchase a ticket using cash at the station, but then paid for it online (and thus direct from a bank account) when it didn't work. There may be very valid reasons, and that's not for me/us to judge, but it's the sort of thing someone looking critically will pick up on.

 

[Sunandsea]

(We're still missing the details of the ticket that was purchased online - we had to assume it was ToD and had to assume it was correct in all other aspects.)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 May 2023 ==

I did post a photo of the ticket posted online