South-West - Bristol - Manchester HS2

[Ianno87]

As for no capacity south of Birmingham International, is there really no spare train paths. In theory it would be similar to how some French TGVs use the interconnection line rather than going into Paris Nord, or Gare de Lyon. Not everyone wants to go to London.

The section south of Interchange is specced for 18tph, of which 17tph are allocated in the Train Service Specification for services to/from Euston plus 1 path "spare" for future growth.

 

[JamesT]

The section south of Interchange is specced for 18tph, of which 17tph are allocated in the Train Service Specification for services to/from Euston plus 1 path "spare" for future growth.

The reference to South of Birmingham International was in relation to XC, isn’t that referring to the existing network rather than HS2? Could @BayPaul clarify?

 

[Snow1964]

The section south of Interchange is specced for 18tph, of which 17tph are allocated in the Train Service Specification for services to/from Euston plus 1 path "spare" for future growth.

Yes, but that is because no one has thought to divert some off before Euston, doesn’t mean all 17 are going to fill better with passengers if all 17 reach Euston rather than a token number going somewhere else with demand.

 

[Ianno87]

Yes, but that is because no one has thought to divert some off before Euston, doesn’t mean all 17 are going to fill better with passengers if all 17 reach Euston rather than a token number going somewhere else with demand.

Actually, people did think to do that. In a previous version of the Train service**, two paths were allocated for the (now deleted) Heathrow service and the (now deleted) HS1 link.

However, the cost of these bits of infrastructure were not justified against the benefits, when you could use those same train paths to serve Euston, for no incremental infrastructure cost.

**It changed at the same time as the route change through South Yorkshire, and provided the two extra paths necessary to serve Sheffield Midland, in response to the political pressure to do so, rather than serve Meadowhall.

 

[BayPaul]

The reference to South of Birmingham International was in relation to XC, isn’t that referring to the existing network rather than HS2? Could @BayPaul clarify?

My reply was to a post that suggested that XC style trains could run on HS2 to Calvert or OOC, and then branch off onto the GWML to Bristol. My point was this would take a path that is needed for a London service.
North of Birmingham, there is space on HS2, as it would just be a case of extending the planned Curzon Street - Manchester or Leeds services to Bristol, so no extra paths are required. HS2 is 4 track from the Eastern leg to Birmingham Exchange as far as I remember, so presumably there would be capacity for trains could extend to a new curve there if that was more convenient than building one at Curzon Street

 

[JonathanH]

North of Birmingham, there is space on HS2, as it would just be a case of extending the planned Curzon Street - Manchester or Leeds services to Bristol, so no extra paths are required.

Not quite as simple as it seems though, the reversal at Curzon Street towards Bristol would need to match a gap in the current paths at Curzon Street (although I appreciate that the "no extra paths" comment is about capacity north of the delta junction on HS2). There would need to be a decision about how long the trains should dwell at Curzon Street, which trains from Bristol match which trains north etc.

The report on Castlefield indicates what a nuisance the reversing Manchester Airport to Cleethorpes trains are to path at Piccadilly because of the need to link the movements in the timetable.

 

[BayPaul]

Not quite as simple as it seems though, the reversal at Curzon Street towards Bristol would need to match a gap in the current paths at Curzon Street (although I appreciate that the "no extra paths" comment is about capacity north of the delta junction on HS2). There would need to be a decision about how long the trains should dwell at Curzon Street, which trains from Bristol match which trains north etc.

The report on Castlefield indicates what a nuisance the reversing Manchester Airport to Cleethorpes trains are to path at Piccadilly because of the need to link the movements in the timetable.

Not really any different to the current need to match paths north and south of new street though. We looked at it on a thread a year or so ago and I think there was room for a 3rd track out as far as a branch to the Camp Hill lines, so if the southern platforms were used for XC type services, and the northern platforms were used for London services, there would be minimal congestion in the throat.

 

[nick.c]

I still think a massive trick is being missed not putting a chord to the camp Hill lines just outside the throat of Curzon Street.

There is an alternative. Midland Connect are proposing to build chords from Moor Street to the Camp Hill lines to provide additional capacity for local services. Building on that, Greengauge21 are suggesting that Moor Street focus instead on cross-country services. This makes sense given that Moor St is virtually next door to Curzon St. Travellers from the South or South-West would have very convenient interchange onto HS2 services to the North-West and Scotland. For the East Midlands and North-East, cross-country services could initially continue northwards on the Birmingham to Derby line, turning onto the HS2 Eastern Branch via a new short connection a few miles short of Tamworth.

For those interested, I’d recommend a read of the Greengauge21 report “HS2’s Eastern Arm” published in July last year.

 

[JonathanH]

For the East Midlands and North-East, cross-country services could initially continue northwards on the Birmingham to Derby line, turning onto the HS2 Eastern Branch via a new short connection a few miles short of Tamworth.

That doesn't really make sense though - it differentiates the market for HS2 services from Birmingham to Leeds between two stations in Birmingham depending on whether they have come from Bristol or not. Is there that much demand?

Can't we just leave it that ...

Travellers from the South or South-West would have very convenient interchange onto HS2

...as you suggest (and through trains on the 'classic' route).

 

[nick.c]

That doesn't really make sense though - it differentiates the market for HS2 services from Birmingham to Leeds between two stations in Birmingham depending on whether they have come from Bristol or not. Is there that much demand?

The point I was trying to address was whether it was actually realistically possible to provide infrastructure that would easily allow cross-county services from Bristol / South Wales to call at Birmingham and then proceed towards the North-East mainly utilising HS2 rails. I think the answer to that is yes. Whether there is sufficient demand for such through services I don't know. However, remember that for passengers starting or terminating their journeys in Birmingham, whether their train uses Curzon St or Moor St makes little difference.

What is clear to me is that the interface between cross-country services to the south of Birmingham and HS2 / possible cross-country services north of Birmingham is complex and needs a lot of thought.

 

[EllieAquitrain]

The conversation turned away from this earlier in the thread - are there any significant non-price obstacles to building a link to the Eastern Leg east of the big HS2 junction whose name I can't remember? As in, I understand a link to the Curzon Street spur is difficult due to the height profiles, but what about out near Tamworth?

 

[Ianno87]

The conversation turned away from this earlier in the thread - are there any significant non-price obstacles to building a link to the Eastern Leg east of the big HS2 junction whose name I can't remember? As in, I understand a link to the Curzon Street spur is difficult due to the height profiles, but what about out near Tamworth?

Two non-price obstacles would be splitting the HS2-North East service across two Birmingham stations, and also adding to the Birmingham-North East journey time by joining HS2 later. And also paths availability through Water Orton.

 

[The Planner]

Two non-price obstacles would be splitting the HS2-North East service across two Birmingham stations, and also adding to the Birmingham-North East journey time by joining HS2 later. And also paths availability through Water Orton.

You would do it near Kingsbury when HS2 passes over the line and the M42.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Two non-price obstacles would be splitting the HS2-North East service across two Birmingham stations, and also adding to the Birmingham-North East journey time by joining HS2 later. And also paths availability through Water Orton.

Don't forget they're is supposed to be a NPHR service between Sheffield and Leeds that is to run partially on HS2, so presumably they're will be spare paths between Sheffield and the junction with the Western leg although maybe not into Birmingham Curzon St.

 

[Ianno87]

Don't forget they're is supposed to be a NPHR service between Sheffield and Leeds that is to run partially on HS2, so presumably they're will be spare paths between Sheffield and the junction with the Western leg although maybe not into Birmingham Curzon St.

I was talking about pathing HS2 trains on the existing network through Water Orton, assuming a connection somewhere in the Kingsbury area. Because (I'd presume) any HS2 service would be in addition to retaining some form of cross-country service to keep services to Derby, Chesterfield etc. rather than outright replacing them.


I suspect the 'pinchpoint' on the HS2 Eastern Leg itself will be between East Midlands Hub and the Sheffield Spur; this will be the point at which Sheffield services have divided, but both portions need to continue north until the Sheffield parts can turn off; that will be quite a busy section. Any Leeds-Sheffield paths joining further north are simply dropping into spare capacity left behind by services turning off towards Sheffield further south.

 

[Purple Orange]

I can’t see a scenario where SW-NE and South Coast - North East cross country services will survive after HS2. Is it not better to use the paths on the whole route for shorter distance services? Can anyone see the possibility of Aberdeen-Penzance surviving?

 

[JamesT]

I can’t see a scenario where SW-NE and South Coast - North East cross country services will survive after HS2. Is it not better to use the paths on the whole route for shorter distance services? Can anyone see the possibility of Aberdeen-Penzance surviving?

Is there likely to be capacity at various points along the route to be able to terminate trains doing shorter sections, rather than things like Aberdeen - Penzance doing the whole route? It presumably remains the operationally most convenient way to run it, even if the vast majority of passengers don't need the whole thing.

Also, if you chopped it up would the sections end up with regional TOCS rather than XC? Do they have the capacity to expand to take over the former XC paths? (I'm assuming the Voyagers wouldn't be distributed around as you'd end up with lots of microfleets)

 

[HSTEd]

Is there likely to be capacity at various points along the route to be able to terminate trains doing shorter sections, rather than things like Aberdeen - Penzance doing the whole route? It presumably remains the operationally most convenient way to run it, even if the vast majority of passengers don't need the whole thing.

Also, if you chopped it up would the sections end up with regional TOCS rather than XC? Do they have the capacity to expand to take over the former XC paths? (I'm assuming the Voyagers wouldn't be distributed around as you'd end up with lots of microfleets)

Well the obvious break points are to fold it into the regular Scotrail service north of Edinburgh, then run Birmingham Curzon St-Edinburgh via Newcastle as a Classic Compatible.

Then run SW-Birmingham Moor St as a separate train

 

[Purple Orange]

Is there likely to be capacity at various points along the route to be able to terminate trains doing shorter sections, rather than things like Aberdeen - Penzance doing the whole route? It presumably remains the operationally most convenient way to run it, even if the vast majority of passengers don't need the whole thing.

Also, if you chopped it up would the sections end up with regional TOCS rather than XC? Do they have the capacity to expand to take over the former XC paths? (I'm assuming the Voyagers wouldn't be distributed around as you'd end up with lots of microfleets)

Well the obvious break points are to fold it into the regular Scotrail service north of Edinburgh, then run Birmingham Curzon St-Edinburgh via Newcastle as a Classic Compatible.

Then run SW-Birmingham Moor St as a separate train

As @HSTEd stated, I could see the route being three ways for long distance services. That then leaves the section between Birmingham New Street & York. North of York I expect capacity will be taken up by HS2 and TPE/NPR. Midland Engine Rail will take over I’d say, and if you look at their map, SW-NE becomes SW & Bristol to Nottingham. Reading-NE seems to survive, but it could just be as far north as York. Then again it could be Reading-Lincoln and Nottingham-North East.

Midlands Connect |

www.midlandsconnect.uk

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Mar 2021 ==

Midlands Connect |

www.midlandsconnect.uk

Apparently midland engine rail would continue South Coast to Newcastle.