South Wales Metro

[Tumbleweed]

Looks like its full steam ahead....hopefully :neutral:

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/edwina-hart-gives-backing-south-6225251

Note the bit about Rhondda Cynon Taff to Cardiff via Creigiau, that must mean they've chosen that route to Llantrisant and Beddau?

 

[Gwenllian2001]

Looks like its full steam ahead....hopefully :neutral:

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/edwina-hart-gives-backing-south-6225251

Note the bit about Rhondda Cynon Taff to Cardiff via Creigiau, that must mean they've chosen that route to Llantrisant and Beddau?

If that is indeed the route chosen, it is, in my opinion, the correct choice.

 

[Tumbleweed]

If that is indeed the route chosen, it is, in my opinion, the correct choice.

In an ideal world this and via Pontyclun would be nice, but either will do.

 

[sefyllian]

Lots of details in the report itself which is available here (PDF).

 

[Gareth Marston]

Big question is how we pay for it?
It's roughly a £130 million a year from 2015 to 2030 according to the report. HS2 is £2 billion a year, Wales share per year is £100 million on a per head basis so this is a bigger project proportionally than HS2.
I haven't seen a stop South Wales metro campaign group complaining its unaffordable yet and the hidden report on how it dis benefits Llandewi Brefi and Llangefni is yet to be seen!

 

[anthony263]

In an ideal world this and via Pontyclun would be nice, but either will do.

I agree either will go since a 30 minutely service via Pontyclun would give Pontyclun a train every 15 minutes to Cardiff Central and would help reduce crowding on the Maesteg - Cardiff services.

The downside to that is that it increases congestion on the line between Pontyclun & Cardiff Central which is already struggling now and with proposals for additional freight (TATA have recently submitted plans to build a power station near the steelworks) more capacity will be needed in the future.

The Welsh Government annouced they were going to build a lot of new houses near Cregiau and teh Cardiff West services so re-opening the line via Creigiau is a brilliant idea. A park & Ride interchange at Junction 33 would certainly help the traffic problems along the A4232 into Cardiff.

The only thing I am against if the tram-train option for the route via Creigiau since trains could run beyond Cardiff & St Mellons to Newport and onwards to Severn Tunnel Jct and Gloucester along the relief lines freeing up capacity on the mainlines..

I am interested in seeing how Cardiff Central and Cardiff Queen Street cope with all these proposed extra services, in particular with that bridge over Newport Road just as you leave Queen Street Station heading north. I deally this bridge needs to be replaced with a wider structure and hopefully it will be done in the future if funds become available.

A railink directly to the airport is not a good idea in my opinion especially since all that money has been spent on the express service T9.

Service 905 Rhoose, Cardiff Airport stn - Cardiff Airport/St Athan Enterprise Zone should in the future have an additional vehicle put on and the frequency increased to operate every 30 minutes from 05:30 to 00:00


If all these proposals do come off I think we can all agree things are certainly going to be interesting over the next 3-8 years

 

[Gareth Marston]

I agree either will go since a 30 minutely service via Pontyclun would give Pontyclun a train every 15 minutes to Cardiff Central and would help reduce crowding on the Maesteg - Cardiff services.

The downside to that is that it increases congestion on the line between Pontyclun & Cardiff Central which is already struggling now and with proposals for additional freight (TATA have recently submitted plans to build a power station near the steelworks) more capacity will be needed in the future.

The Welsh Government annouced they were going to build a lot of new houses near Cregiau and teh Cardiff West services so re-opening the line via Creigiau is a brilliant idea. A park & Ride interchange at Junction 33 would certainly help the traffic problems along the A4232 into Cardiff.

The only thing I am against if the tram-train option for the route via Creigiau since trains could run beyond Cardiff & St Mellons to Newport and onwards to Severn Tunnel Jct and Gloucester along the relief lines freeing up capacity on the mainlines..

I am interested in seeing how Cardiff Central and Cardiff Queen Street cope with all these proposed extra services, in particular with that bridge over Newport Road just as you leave Queen Street Station heading north. I deally this bridge needs to be replaced with a wider structure and hopefully it will be done in the future if funds become available.

A railink directly to the airport is not a good idea in my opinion especially since all that money has been spent on the express service T9.

Service 905 Rhoose, Cardiff Airport stn - Cardiff Airport/St Athan Enterprise Zone should in the future have an additional vehicle put on and the frequency increased to operate every 30 minutes from 05:30 to 00:00


If all these proposals do come off I think we can all agree things are certainly going to be interesting over the next 3-8 years

And be afforded along with M4 relief road, the unfinished a465 dualling, all the local bypass, link road proposal every constituency AM bangs on about etc etc and we have another thread live at the moment about re opening Bangor to Caernarfon.

 

[sefyllian]

Big question is how we pay for it?

They've been allocated £62m over the next three years in the current budget – obviously nowhere near enough to pay for the whole plan, but not insignificant either, and a good chunk of what the group thought was needed to do phase one (£90m). So it looks like the political will to implement at least part of it is there.

 

[anthony263]

Also depands on whether Wales gets its own Tax Raising and Borrowing powers.

If the do build the M4 relief road then it is tolled and that some money raised from the toll is put back into public transport.

Hopefully we will see Cardiff Council get off its backside and build a proper bus station in Cardiff like Swansea has and Newport is currently having constructed which will provide easy interchange with rail services at Cardiff Central station

 

[tbtc]

And be afforded along with M4 relief road, the unfinished a465 dualling, all the local bypass, link road proposal every constituency AM bangs on about etc etc and we have another thread live at the moment about re opening Bangor to Caernarfon.

There seems to be a huge "wish list" on Welsh threads, some items more realistic than others, but at the same time we are seeing parts of the Valley Line electrification delayed until the 2020s which doesn't bode well (in terms of the resources to spend on lots of other infrastructure projects).

And that's not to mention finding units to do all of these proposed extra services when there's the lack of stock for the Cambrian...

 

[anthony263]

There is a good article in Modern Railways this month which I am having a browse through on the Cardiff Valleys. They have looked at typical journey times between DMU'S and EMU'S.

Rhymney to Penarth in 56 minutes sounds interesting. There is a very interesting photograph

 

[Gareth Marston]

There seems to be a huge "wish list" on Welsh threads, some items more realistic than others, but at the same time we are seeing parts of the Valley Line electrification delayed until the 2020s which doesn't bode well (in terms of the resources to spend on lots of other infrastructure projects).

And that's not to mention finding units to do all of these proposed extra services when there's the lack of stock for the Cambrian...

Something will undoubtedly have to give , the metro can at least be done in phased chunks out of existing capital budget if road schemes are stuck on back burner. The M4relief road will need all its funding in place to even start as it has no purpose unless 100% built in one go. The danger is we pretend we can do it all and sub regional road schemes are kept up with to appease noisy local campaigners and the metro is done half cocked.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They've been allocated £62m over the next three years in the current budget – obviously nowhere near enough to pay for the whole plan, but not insignificant either, and a good chunk of what the group thought was needed to do phase one (£90m). So it looks like the political will to implement at least part of it is there.

Essentially the basic premise of the metro is that SE Wales becomes part of the Cardiff city region with economic activity focused there and the ability of the workforce to access down town Cardiff which can only realistically be done by high quality public transport. This is at odds with dualling the A465 which is claimed will regenerate the heads of valleys towns.

 

[Tumbleweed]

Something will undoubtedly have to give , the metro can at least be done in phased chunks out of existing capital budget if road schemes are stuck on back burner. The M4relief road will need all its funding in place to even start as it has no purpose unless 100% built in one go. The danger is we pretend we can do it all and sub regional road schemes are kept up with to appease noisy local campaigners and the metro is done half cocked.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Essentially the basic premise of the metro is that SE Wales becomes part of the Cardiff city region with economic activity focused there and the ability of the workforce to access down town Cardiff which can only realistically be done by high quality public transport. This is at odds with dualling the A465 which is claimed will regenerate the heads of valleys towns.

I'm sorry to be rude and I don't mean any offence but a lot of these valleys towns have been regenerated more times than Doctor Who -yes these places deserve the chance as Cardiff etc but there just seems to be a never ending stream of money going to the valleys.

The metro idea is a good one - it just remains to be seen if there is any political will. Going on past experience I have my doubts but hope I'm surprised.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There is a good article in Modern Railways this month which I am having a browse through on the Cardiff Valleys. They have looked at typical journey times between DMU'S and EMU'S.
Rhymney to Penarth in 56 minutes sounds interesting. There is a very interesting photograph

Yes it's an interesting read. Ian Walmsley recommends trams for the Valleys heavy rail network, and thinks cascaded 315s or similar are unsuitable after electrification.

 

[Greenback]

I'm sorry to be rude and I don't mean any offence but a lot of these valleys towns have been regenerated more times than Doctor Who -yes these places deserve the chance as Cardiff etc but there just seems to be a never ending stream of money going to the valleys.

The metro idea is a good one - it just remains to be seen if there is any political will. Going on past experience I have my doubts but hope I'm surprised.

I think the point is that regenration has not worked and there is an acceptance that the old valley communities are now little more than dormitories for Cardiff. This particularly true of places nearer to the Cardiff end of the valleys.

The result is investment to enable easier and quicker access to the capital, and the M$ corridor, which are the economic powerhouses of the region.

 

[anthony263]

Yes it's an interesting read. Ian Walmsley recommends trams for the Valleys heavy rail network, and thinks cascaded 315s or similar are unsuitable after electrification.

Tram-Trains might be ok for the Coryton & Cardiff Bay lines but I dont really think they would be very good for the longer distance valley lines services such as the Aberdare - Barry & Merthyr Tydfil - Bridgend.

The tram-trains would also have to be a similar height to those trams on the Manchester Metrolink due to the height of the platforms and I dont thinkwe want to be messing around with platforms at Cardiff Queen Street.

Still I agree it is a very good article, that photoshopped photo at Cardiff Bay made me smile

 

[anthony263]

With todays news about Wales being allowed more powers perhaps with further powers being devolved that perhaps now the WG might be more willing to try and riase more caital to invest in public transport infrastructure.

I do like the suggestion on new stations on the SWML at, St Mellons, Coedkernew, Newport West, Maindee and Llanwern most likely these stations only having platforms on the relief lines. I think a 30 minutely interval should be idea for these stations with the Cardiff - Chepstow/Cheltenham services being diverted to run via the relief lines lines.

This free's up capacity on the mainlines for additional services to Abergavenny or Bristol.

The proposed station at Tredegar Park on the Ebbw Vale branch is another interesting suggestion since there is a lot of housing and industry around those area's, certainly the proposed station at Newport West is close to the Dyffryn area of the city with easy acess to Maes Glas Retail & Industrial Parks, the Royal Gwent Hospital etc.

I am starting to come round to the idea of replacing the pacers/class 150's on the valley lines network with tram-train vehicles similar to the M5000 trams in use on the Manchester Metrolink. Services could be operated by pairs or even three trams operating together on busy peak time services.

Tram-trains will also allow some on street extensions such as beyond Penarth to Sully, Coryton to Northern Avenue and the current Cardiff Bay station to the Wales Millenium Centre and Roath Basin ( Porth Teigr Way). In the case of the Cardiff Bay branch extending it further into the Cardiff Bay area would in my person opinion lead to a sharp increase in passengers especially if a new park & ride site is constructed at Northern Avenue/Jct32 on the M4 & A470.


There is still a lot of work to be done before any of this comes about in particular that Bridge over Newport Road @ Cardiff Queen Street station is still going to be a major bottleneck for Network rail so I do hope the opportunity is taken to construct a new wider Bridge which can accomodate 4 tracks.

Network Rail still need to be persuaded to the use of tram-trains on the valley lines network since one concern from Network rail is the interaction of the tram-train vehicles with heavy coal trains.

Another issue is pathing these additional services especially around the Canton area. The proposed east-west link from Beddau to St Mellons I think be best placed on street between Ely and Splott so that it avoids cuasing issues at Canton/Cardiff Central.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Lets face it the so called M4 relief road will swallow the whole lot if allowed to go ahead, however there will be clamour for it to be spent on everything from schools, hospitals, bypasses, link roads etc.

 

[Tumbleweed]

Lets face it the so called M4 relief road will swallow the whole lot if allowed to go ahead, however there will be clamour for it to be spent on everything from schools, hospitals, bypasses, link roads etc.

I have a nasty feeling you may be right....I hope I'm not though. The M4 'relief road', coming in at an estimate of £1 billion....a road too far if there ever was. Roads will always have first priority sadly even though its a fact that the more you build the more traffic is generated.

 

[Markdvdman]

There was a poster up in Merthyr Tydfil station this AM about the December 8th timetable changes. Also mentioned was that Energlyn would open on December 8th! Some positive news

 

[anthony263]

Excellent news a new station to visit then in December when I have a day off.

Still plenty more things left to do on the South Wales rail network such as the station @ Brackla and loop north of Tondu near Llangynwydd. I will admit all credit to Network rail for doing such a fast and good job in the construction of Energlyn station

 

[CapitalStar378]

Was home for Christmas and got the train through Queen St station. The new platform 5 looks almost finished however there is no platform canopy. Maybe I had unrealistic expectations but I thought that Wales' 2nd busiest station may have more than a large bus shelter, especially considering this will be a busy through platform and it does occasionally rain in Cardiff!

 

[merlodlliw]

Was home for Christmas and got the train through Queen St station. The new platform 5 looks almost finished however there is no platform canopy. Maybe I had unrealistic expectations but I thought that Wales' 2nd busiest station may have more than a large bus shelter, especially considering this will be a busy through platform and it does occasionally rain in Cardiff!

You are probably correct in stating Wales 2nd busiest station,however ATWs 2nd busiest is Chester,less than a mile from the border

 

[MarkyT]

Network Rail still need to be persuaded to the use of tram-trains on the valley lines network since one concern from Network rail is the interaction of the tram-train vehicles with heavy coal trains.

The UK already mixes light and heavy rail vehicles on the Tyne and Wear metro route to Sunderland. The Metro vehicles used there are lightly constructed similar to high floor trams, just lacking the lights, indicators and skirts required to operate on street due to the remainder of the metro routes being segregated. Additional measures were required to control the assessed risk of mixed operation, so all signals on the shared section are fitted with 2 separate train protection systems, Indusi for the metro vehicles and TPWS for other traffic. In addition to Northern passenger services, heavy freight shares the route with light metro services, and that includes coal haulage from Tyne Coal terminal - for instance:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/SUN/2014/01/16/0600-2000?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

In the Cardiff area a similar approach could be taken for high floor tram-train operations, with all signals TPWS fitted and the trams equipped with that system. That would also allow some longer distance services using heavy rail vehicles to venture up parts of the valleys network as well as freight.