South Wales 'Metro' updates

[Dai Corner]

And at the same time as saying their plans for tram-trains across Cardiff will get people out of their cars, drastically reduce CO2 and NO2 emissions etc, they also want to build a 2,000 space car park to accompany this arena in the Bay, thereby encouraging people to drive into Cardiff for any concerts at this new arena......joined up thinking at its finest

I guess the car park would be handy for people working at County Hall when not in use by those going to events at the arena?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

https://twitter.com/cardiffcouncil/status/1146729157709185024

I'd love to be on that proposed train when the on-board announcement says, "The next station is P+T C33 J33 P+R"

 

[Cardiff123]

I guess the car park would be handy for people working at County Hall when not in use by those going to events at the arena?

Cardiff Council want to sell off and demolish County Hall, but even if County Hall was staying as Cardiff Council HQ, can council workers not use the new tram-train to the Bay? Or the number 6 Baycar bus that calls there every 15 minutes?

 

[Dai Corner]

Cardiff Council want to sell off and demolish County Hall, but even if County Hall was staying as Cardiff Council HQ, can council workers not use the new tram-train to the Bay? Or the number 6 Baycar bus that calls there every 15 minutes?

They could. But many may prefer to drive.

Where's the next County Hall going to be? It doesn't seem that long ago they moved to the Bay.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

Where's the next County Hall going to be? It doesn't seem that long ago they moved to the Bay.

There probably won't be a new County Hall as such. County Hall was built for the old South Glamorgan council and since we now have unitary local government, the chamber and committee rooms at city hall are sufficient. It's only the office space that would need replacing.

 

[Envoy]

And at the same time as saying their plans for tram-trains across Cardiff will get people out of their cars, drastically reduce CO2 and NO2 emissions etc, they also want to build a 2,000 space car park to accompany this arena in the Bay, thereby encouraging people to drive into Cardiff for any concerts at this new arena......joined up thinking at its finest

As I said earlier today, I cannot see any new Tram-train system being able to suddenly shift large numbers of people leaving an Arena in the Bay. So, who would want to do the long walk from such an Arena to the Central Station - especially on some dark winter night when the weather can be nasty? Therefore, I contend that most people will indeed travel by car to such an Arena. If it were built near the Central Station, there would be a greater inducement to use public transport as the trains could disperse people more easily in all directions.

 

[Dr Day]

They could. But many may prefer to drive.

That is the problem, even (relatively) close to the 'city centre' with frequent bus links to Central, car driving is still the best option for many and the council condone it by providing spaces (presumably). Unfortunately, until public transport can compete for the door to door journey, the car will win. The heavy rail network only has a limited reach, whatever journey time and frequency improvements you make, but at least the council are trying to fill some of the gaps with a (hopefully) well-planned complementary 'high quality' tram and/or bus network, supported by integrated ticketing etc.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

That is the problem, even (relatively) close to the 'city centre' with frequent bus links to Central, car driving is still the best option for many and the council condone it by providing spaces (presumably). Unfortunately, until public transport can compete for the door to door journey, the car will win. The heavy rail network only has a limited reach, whatever journey time and frequency improvements you make, but at least the council are trying to fill some of the gaps with a (hopefully) well-planned complementary 'high quality' tram and/or bus network, supported by integrated ticketing etc.

I doubt very much that any replacement for County Hall would offer free parking for desk-wallahs. Both the BBC and HMRC moves have done away with parking facilties for non-operational vehicles and I'm sure the council would do the same if it were to move.

 

[Furryanimal]

There's a theory that it's best to locate major venues like this a little way away from transport facilities, so that the crowds all leaving at the same time when an event finishes will have spread out a little by the time they get to the stop/station. I'm not sure if this is the intention here, but they could try to keep the Metro for those who are unable to walk to Central and encourage others who want the rail network to walk instead.

I hope not.The Motorpoint -like St.Davids Hall -and the Tramshed,is a short walk from Central.By the time the concerts I attend finish services towards Newport are running down.I don't drive and if I had to get up from the Bay it's a taxi or don't go.It's already a taxi from Newport to Cwmbran with no train from Cardiff for two hours and 35 minutes after the 2155!And with my knees I wouldn't consider walking from the Bay!

 

[Cardiff123]

I doubt very much that any replacement for County Hall would offer free parking for desk-wallahs. Both the BBC and HMRC moves have done away with parking facilties for non-operational vehicles and I'm sure the council would do the same if it were to move.

The new BBC Wales HQ in front of Cardiff Central station has a 200+ space underground car park

 

[Cardiff123]

As I said earlier today, I cannot see any new Tram-train system being able to suddenly shift large numbers of people leaving an Arena in the Bay. So, who would want to do the long walk from such an Arena to the Central Station - especially on some dark winter night when the weather can be nasty? Therefore, I contend that most people will indeed travel by car to such an Arena. If it were built near the Central Station, there would be a greater inducement to use public transport as the trains could disperse people more easily in all directions.

If trams are turning up every 5 minutes on event nights, waiting for a few minutes won't harm anyone.
The council is giving out mixed messages by saying that they want a massive, shiny new, integrated, dare I say it, "World Class" public transport system in Cardiff, but is still building massive multi storey city centre car parks. It makes no sense.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

The new BBC Wales HQ in front of Cardiff Central station has a 200+ space underground car park

That's not correct. The BBC underground car park has spaces for around eighty vehicles which are reserved for disabled staff, programme guests, and people working early and late night shifts. There are due to be another couple of hundred BBC spaces in the interchange building when that's built but that compares with around a thousand spaces at the two Llandaff sites. There is a 200 space cycle park in the BBC basement. That's probably where you're getting the 200 figure from.

HMRC has around twenty car parking spaces - entirely for disabled staff.

 

[Cardiff123]

That's not correct. The BBC underground car park has spaces for around eighty vehicles which are reserved for disabled staff, programme guests, and people working early and late night shifts. There are due to be another couple of hundred BBC spaces in the interchange building when that's built but that compares with around a thousand spaces at the two Llandaff sites. There is a 200 space cycle park in the BBC basement. That's probably where you're getting the 200 figure from.

HMRC has around twenty car parking spaces - entirely for disabled staff.

I've read Wales Online article that says 249 spaces above the new bus station with 175 for the BBC and a 695 space multi storey on the Brains Brewery site

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

I've read Wales Online article that says 249 spaces above the new bus station with 175 for the BBC and a 695 space multi storey on the Brains Brewery site

Sure. That's right. The underground car park for the BBC is about eighty spaces and there are a couple of hundred in the interchange / bus station building. The multi storey on the Brains site is nothing to do with the BBC or HMRC. It's to replace the current surface parking on the southern side of the station. BBC and HMRC staff could use it of course, but they'd have to pay out of their own pockets.

 

[Dai Corner]

Sure. That's right. The underground car park for the BBC is about eighty spaces and there are a couple of hundred in the interchange / bus station building. The multi storey on the Brains site is nothing to do with the BBC or HMRC. It's to replace the current surface parking on the southern side of the station. BBC and HMRC staff could use it of course, but they'd have to pay out of their own pockets.

Or the BBC, HMRC or any other employer could lease a floor or two for their staff's use?

 

[Envoy]

Or the BBC, HMRC or any other employer could lease a floor or two for their staff's use?

And that is the problem with some of the car parks today. The owners do discount deals with organisations based in the city centre. This then encourages people to drive their cars into the city centre thus going against everything that Cardiff Council and the Welsh Government are trying to achieve. I should add that at one time Cardiff Council did own some of the car parks but decided to sell them off to private companies.

 

[Envoy]

If trams are turning up every 5 minutes on event nights, waiting for a few minutes won't harm anyone.
The council is giving out mixed messages by saying that they want a massive, shiny new, integrated, dare I say it, "World Class" public transport system in Cardiff, but is still building massive multi storey city centre car parks. It makes no sense.

Surely, the trams / tram-trains will be geared to meet the normal flows of people? I just cannot see how they will be able to cope with masses of people all at once with most heading for the Central Station. In some ways, we have the same situation today when events take place at the Football Stadium at Leckwith. The nearest station is Ninian Park and the usual 1 & 2 coach City Line Trains provided and are rammed with regular passengers finding that they are unable to board. (Although Ninian Park has a long platform, other platforms on the City Line can only cope with up to 2 coaches. Of course, any new Metro service would be more frequent & thus able to shift more people. I also understand that services from the Central Valleys will do a loop around Cardiff & therefore be able to provide better services to Ninian Park). I note that car transport seems to be very popular for times when events take place at the Football Stadium.

‘Furryanimal’ (above) makes a valid point about the needs of people who need to leave central Cardiff for outlying areas.

 

[edwin_m]

Surely, the trams / tram-trains will be geared to meet the normal flows of people? I just cannot see how they will be able to cope with masses of people all at once with most heading for the Central Station. In some ways, we have the same situation today when events take place at the Football Stadium at Leckwith. The nearest station is Ninian Park and the usual 1 & 2 coach City Line Trains provided and are rammed with regular passengers finding that they are unable to board. (Although Ninian Park has a long platform, other platforms on the City Line can only cope with up to 2 coaches. Of course, any new Metro service would be more frequent & thus able to shift more people. I also understand that services from the Central Valleys will do a loop around Cardiff & therefore be able to provide better services to Ninian Park). I note that car transport seems to be very popular for times when events take place at the Football Stadium.

‘Furryanimal’ (above) makes a valid point about the needs of people who need to leave central Cardiff for outlying areas.

Trams have a lot of "stretch" to cope with peak capacity. The service is normally designed so off-peak passengers can get a seat, but many more can cram in during peaks by standing. The line of sight operation also makes it possible to up the frequency if extra vehicles are available.

Most events are likely to end in the late evening or late afternoon at weekends, when other passengers flows are at less than their maximum. Therefore there should be capacity on board the vehicles running the normal service and also (at least for late nights) the option of bringing in vehicles that have come out of service on other routes.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

Or the BBC, HMRC or any other employer could lease a floor or two for their staff's use?

Theoretically they could, of course. There's no sign though that either plan to do so. I'm not sure about HMRC but I know the BBC has been helping their staff to draw up personal travel plans for their new location involving advisors from TfW and Sustrans.

 

[Caaardiff]

How many coaches will the new Flourish station be able to hold?
If there were to be a new arena built in the Bay, then consideration will likely be given to event planning and similar setups to Central on Stadium days would be drawn up, so basically some kind of queueing system. With regular trains going up and back to Queen St / Central, it won't take long to clear the queues if in a minimum 4 coach formation.
What there is then a risk of is shifting too many people at one go into Queen St or Central and having no opportunity to queue people outside without forcing people back outside after arriving and into another queue. That could lead to overcrowding on the platforms, especially at Queen St where space is limited.
The good thing is that by the time any new arena is built, the fleet situation will be in a much better place, with greater flexibility and more capacity available.

 

[CardiffKid]

How many coaches will the new Flourish station be able to hold?
If there were to be a new arena built in the Bay, then consideration will likely be given to event planning and similar setups to Central on Stadium days would be drawn up, so basically some kind of queueing system. With regular trains going up and back to Queen St / Central, it won't take long to clear the queues if in a minimum 4 coach formation.
What there is then a risk of is shifting too many people at one go into Queen St or Central and having no opportunity to queue people outside without forcing people back outside after arriving and into another queue. That could lead to overcrowding on the platforms, especially at Queen St where space is limited.
The good thing is that by the time any new arena is built, the fleet situation will be in a much better place, with greater flexibility and more capacity available.

Platforms will suitable for six cars as guess, (2 x three car trams/trains per platform).

Artists impressions show only two platforms.

The next phase of the Metro doesn’t facilitate a train/tram link from The Bay to Central. All the trains/trams from The Bay will go to Queen Street, then Cathays and up to Pontypridd and beyond. The Dec 2022 timetable allows for 2tph from The Bay to each of Merthyr, Aberdare and Treherbert.

That’s not to say extras couldn’t be squeezed in, although six trains an hour arriving and six leaving crossing and interacting with road vehicles and pedestrians on Hemingway Road will be problematic.

 

[Envoy]

Trams have a lot of "stretch" to cope with peak capacity. The service is normally designed so off-peak passengers can get a seat, but many more can cram in during peaks by standing. The line of sight operation also makes it possible to up the frequency if extra vehicles are available.

Most events are likely to end in the late evening or late afternoon at weekends, when other passengers flows are at less than their maximum. Therefore there should be capacity on board the vehicles running the normal service and also (at least for late nights) the option of bringing in vehicles that have come out of service on other routes.

I would hope that the new train-trams would have seating capacity for everyone at peak time. If people are to be induced out of their cars, they are not going to be happy if they have to stand on this new rolling stock - which could lead to them reverting to cars. I think that they ought to produce a dummy vehicle prior to production starting - in order to gauge public opinion.

 

[edwin_m]

I would hope that the new train-trams would have seating capacity for everyone at peak time. If people are to be induced out of their cars, they are not going to be happy if they have to stand on this new rolling stock - which could lead to them reverting to cars. I think that they ought to produce a dummy vehicle prior to production starting - in order to gauge public opinion.

I don't know what is planned but some journeys are very short and people might be quite happy to stand for a few minutes in a normal peak hour. I agree standing for many minutes to the upper Valleys is not reasonable. At the end of a major event when people are queueing for a tram many will also be willing to stand, or to walk to Central, rather than waiting much longer to get a seat.

 

[krus_aragon]

I would hope that the new train-trams would have seating capacity for everyone at peak time. If people are to be induced out of their cars, they are not going to be happy if they have to stand on this new rolling stock - which could lead to them reverting to cars.

That's not how light rail / rapid transit usually works: you want to have a mix of seated and standing to soak up the crush loads near the city, and also accomodate the longer distance traveller.

The briefing document shared at franchise award has some renders of the tram-trains, and what looks like a good number of seats. The document says each unit will have seating for 129 (out of a total capacity of 257).

 

[CardiffKid]

I don't know what is planned but some journeys are very short and people might be quite happy to stand for a few minutes in a normal peak hour. I agree standing for many minutes to the upper Valleys is not reasonable. At the end of a major event when people are queueing for a tram many will also be willing to stand, or to walk to Central, rather than waiting much longer to get a seat.

That's not how light rail / rapid transit usually works: you want to have a mix of seated and standing to soak up the crush loads near the city, and also accomodate the longer distance traveller.

The briefing document shared at franchise award has some renders of the tram-trains, and what looks like a good number of seats. The document says each unit will have seating for 129 (out of a total capacity of 257).

You'll never get enough seating for everyone all the time.

Welsh Government have said that no one should have to stand for more than 15 minutes. (Not sure if rugby/event days are included in that!)

 

[Envoy]

That's not how light rail / rapid transit usually works: you want to have a mix of seated and standing to soak up the crush loads near the city, and also accomodate the longer distance traveller.

The briefing document shared at franchise award has some renders of the tram-trains, and what looks like a good number of seats. The document says each unit will have seating for 129 (out of a total capacity of 257).

Well, if that’s the case, it sounds like commuters in Cardiff can expect to stand - at least during the peaks - as the train-trams are likely to be full when entering the city periphery. On outward journeys, some of the longer distance passengers may find that they have to stand. I thought this was going to be a world class system for shifting people and therefore attract commuters off the roads?

 

[krus_aragon]

Well, if that’s the case, it sounds like commuters in Cardiff can expect to stand - at least during the peaks - as the train-trams are likely to be full when entering the city periphery. On outward journeys, some of the longer distance passengers may find that they have to stand. I thought this was going to be a world class system for shifting people and therefore attract commuters off the roads?

I fear that having nobody stand for (a portion of) their < 1hr commute is not feasible in today's world.

The last tram I travelled on was a (nearly new) Flexity Outlook:

followed by a (similar age) subway train:

And then a "rapid transit" articulated bus:

(Reference images taken from Wikimedia Commons.)

I stood on the tram and bus, but these were short (5-14 minute) legs. On the subway, I was able to sit down part-way through that leg (which lasted roughly an hour).

All of these vehicles have been designed to accomodate a mixture of seated and standing passengers.

The ratio of seated-to-standing may be something to discuss, but I don't think there's any mileage in planning for zero standees. (And as @PaulHarding150 said, it seems the WG don't think there is either.)

 

[Envoy]

Not impressed with what I see above. Some people will be making hour long journeys! It would be incredible if after all the hype that we end up with something that is worse than the present stock - apart from having air-conditioning and being electric.

 

[CardiffKid]

Not impressed with what I see above. Some people will be making hour long journeys! It would be incredible if after all the hype that we end up with something that is worse than the present stock - apart from having air-conditioning and being electric.

Take a look at this picture, which I’ll freely admit is for illustrative purposes so the final product could be different (but this almost all we’ve got to go on)

https://cdn.prgloo.com/media/download/9d9eb05ddd144d98b9080a9c9457b867

Looks very much like a train layout to me.

Overall capacity per train, per hour and per day between Aberdare (for example) and Cardiff is another matter.

 

[Envoy]

Many thanks Paul (above). Looks like the seats look pretty good. I just hope that they release design details for comment before signing any contracts in order to gauge public opinion.