South Wales 'Metro' updates

[ancientsolar]

DfT said it wasn't economical to extend to Swansea.. and for that matter, many places in England too. - While I would have liked the electrification to Swansea.. it doesn't reflect in passengers experience..

It would have been better to have reinvested the money, in upgrading the line between Cardiff and Bridgend .. also making a decent link to the airport and adding Stations to Bridgend. -- Electrification as far as Bridgend may have been viable too.

The big issue with Swansea was more than just electrification, it was much more the principal that Swansea was being neglected .. with broken promises.

Swansea will be the most neglected Station and City.. in Wales too during CP6 as the plans.. are primarily positioned for Bridgend-Newport-Chester-Bangor.

Bridgend is set to get extra services from the VoG and main line. Cardiff and the valleys.. all metro mania, along with 2hourly service to liverpool service<<<hourly from Shrewsbury and North Wales.
Cambrian line to Aberystywyth is set to get a full hourly service.

I think these are the most "key points" to make..

Although a Cardiff Parkway station is supposed to start being built next year.. and surely some point Llanwern railway Station.

Other operators are adding services to Hereford Shrewsbury and Chester

As for Swansea.. additional service heart of Wales line.. extended services to Fisghuard harbour .. a new fleet of trains.
Ironically.. Swansea has the biggest potential.. if you look at the freight only lines.

Ultimately, there is only a limited pot of money.. and Cardiff has looked very dated for many years.. but now things are looking positive.

 

[Cardiff123]

It's all about the Welsh Government's priorities. Unfortunately the Welsh Govt under Carwyn Jones for a decade was obsessed with show piece road building schemes and bypasses.
Ok, Welsh Govt doesn't directly control Network Rail in Wales, but they can provide NR with the funding to carry out infrastructure projects, as was seen with Ebbw Vale doubling until WG pulled the plug.

Welsh Govt has poured all of its capital infrastructure spending for the last decade, running into billions, into road schemes such as the A465 Heads of the Valleys dual carriageway, which still is nowhere near finished and has turned into a money pit running into the £ billions, bypasses, and soon possibly the M4 around Newport, which if the black route is chosen, will cost around £2 billion.

So WG has the capital infrastructure spending available, they just choose to direct it towards roads instead of rail, and then cry wolf when they don't get money from Westminster for Wales' rail network.

If the billions poured into roads by Welsh Govt over the past decade has been put into rail, now we really would have a "world class" rail network across the whole of Wales, not just the Valleys lines north of Queen Street.

 

[Meerkat]

Much as I like railways the M4 round Newport is pretty much essential and will benefit far more people than spending the money on extending the electricity to Swansea

 

[Tom Quinne]

The new M4 Relief is vital to the future health and economic wellbeing of Newport.

 

[Cardiff123]

Let's not get into an M4 debate here. There are strongly held opinions on both sides. Create a new thread elsewhere if needed, I was just illustrating the Welsh Govt's capital infrastructure spending priorities over the last decade and more.

 

[ruthtom010]

Let's not get into an M4 debate here. There are strongly held opinions on both sides. Create a new thread elsewhere if needed, I was just illustrating the Welsh Govt's capital infrastructure spending priorities over the last decade and more.

You should relate capital spending to use (journeys or passenger km). On that basis, past spending on roads looks reasonable. Future spending on rail (mainly Metro) looks very generous.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Do the good folk of the valleys have a particular bladder problem that is not experienced by people who use most of London’s suburban rail services?

Difference is that there are many more options for toilets in the late evening in London, and many more options to finish off your journey if you do need to alight your train to use the loo at a station.

 

[CardiffKid]

M4 Black route cancelled.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-48512697

No news on any public transport improvement proposals, seems South Wales is to chug along in the slow lane.

 

[PHILIPE]

M4 Black route cancelled.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-48512697

No news on any public transport improvement proposals, seems South Wales is to chug along in the slow lane.

This was first mooted in 1991 so we shall probably be having the same debate on traffic congestion in 28 years time . Millions gone down the drain on reviews and consultations

 

[Tom Quinne]

Total utter betrayal of South Wales and the Welsh economy.
If money is the issue, reintroduce tolls (at an acceptable level) the bridges to pay for it!

 

[Envoy]

I agree with Philipe - millions down the drain in planning out the route, inquiries and consultations. Absolutely appalling decision. I am all for public transportation & rail travel but the massive population in south Wales also needs decent road transport. The 2 lane each way tunnel at Newport at one of the busiest points on the M4 is completely unacceptable. Presumably, this current lot running Wales would have objected to Brunel building the railway along the coastal plain from the Severn Tunnel to Cardiff as that also crosses the ‘wetlands’ . (They are not natural wetlands but land that has been drained with man created reens to produce farmland). The central valleys ‘Metro’ project is nothing to do with the east-west flows through the Newport area. The connection of the Ebbw Valley to Newport directly and some measures on the lower Marches Line - such as a new car park at Pontypool Road, it can be argued are relevant to the traffic situation in the Newport area - but only in a minor way.

 

[Envoy]

Total utter betrayal of South Wales and the Welsh economy.
If money is the issue, reintroduce tolls (at an acceptable level) the bridges to pay for it!

Bridge tolls were a hindrance to the Welsh economy. If the new M4 had been built and tolled, then a lot of people would have continued to use the present ‘free’ route which would have rather defeated the object of building the new route. This has happened at Birmingham where relatively few people use the M6 toll road. It would also lead to more people being killed as the present M4 around Newport has bends and hills which allied with the heavy traffic - leads to many crashes.

 

[oglord]

Total utter betrayal of South Wales and the Welsh economy.
If money is the issue, reintroduce tolls (at an acceptable level) the bridges to pay for it!

Money is NOT the issue. The useless WAG obtained borrowing powers especially for this project, but like seemingly everything else they touch there is millions of pounds wasted and nothing to show for it

 

[Tom Quinne]

Bridge tolls were a hindrance to the Welsh economy. If the new M4 had been built and tolled, then a lot of people would have continued to use the present ‘free’ route which would have rather defeated the object of building the new route. This has happened at Birmingham where relatively few people use the M6 toll road. It would also lead to more people being killed at the present M4 around Newport has bends and hills which allied with the heavy traffic - leads to many crashes.

The speed limits with fake camera signs cause accidents, people spending to much time watching the speedo than the car or truck which has just slammed on the brakes on front as their doing 52mph going downhill towards the fake camera gantry.

When the limits were switched off last year for a very short period traffic flowed with no miles and miles of gridlock, as soon as they were turned back on guess what ?

Gridlock every single day.

 

[Cardiff123]

This is not a thread about the M4. Please start another thread in General Discussion to discuss it there.

Meanwhile, for people who want to continue to concrete over the country 1960s style, inducing more traffic and more pollution, without actually tackling the root causes of the congestion problem, read Prof Mark Barry's considered analysis of the situation and why we must change our travel habits away from our over dependency on the car and road transport if we can have any hope of tackling the climate emergency we now find ourselves in:
https://swalesmetroprof.blog/2019/06/01/new-m4-yes-or-no/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

 

[8H]

This is fantastic news and hopefully the end of big vanity road projects and the beginning of the end of the pollutant economy. The world has to change and begin to live without the motor car and delivery vans as the sole major carriers of goods and passengers.

 

[krus_aragon]

Money is NOT the issue. The useless WAG obtained borrowing powers especially for this project

It may have been some of the issue. The Welsh Government have powers to borrow up to £1bn, and when the cost estimate rose, Westminster agreed to increase that to £1.3bn on the condition that it was spent on the M4.

But what if the cost were to rise again? The price being quoted today is £1.6bn. There'd be no contingency fund for overspends, other than to go cap-in-hand to Westminster and see if they'd lend more. Not to mention the fact that all the fiscal eggs would be sat in one basket. No borrowing for anything else in Wales until the M4's price tag was being paid off.

There are some clashes of economics and fiscal policy vs. environmental obligations and the Well-being of Future Generations Act bouncing about as well. And, as ever, there's no pleasing everybody. But if we're lucky, the dropping of the M4 plan will release funds and efforts for public transport improvements instead.

like seemingly everything else they touch there is millions of pounds wasted and nothing to show for it

Like that equally divisive issue that's been hampering Westminster for the past few years?

 

[Cardiff123]

This is fantastic news and hopefully the end of big vanity road projects and the beginning of the end of the pollutant economy. The world has to change and begin to live without the motor car and delivery vans as the sole major carriers of goods and passengers.

Exactly. Massive spending on public transport is now in the pipeline, which will hopefully mean big improvements to public transport infrastructure around Newport to get local drivers off the M4.

Whilst lots of people have rubbished Prof Mark Barry's ideas on this forum, without him pushing hard over the last few years I doubt we'd have a Metro at all, and he is absolutely right that we need to abandon the car centric planning to infrastructure and communities in the UK, and Wales especially as we move into the middle of the 21st Century.

 

[Dai Corner]

Exactly. Massive spending on public transport is now in the pipeline, which will hopefully mean big improvements to public transport infrastructure around Newport to get local drivers off the M4.

Whilst lots of people have rubbished Prof Mark Barry's ideas on this forum, without him pushing hard over the last few years I doubt we'd have a Metro at all, and he is absolutely right that we need to abandon the car centric planning to infrastructure and communities in the UK, and Wales especially as we move into the middle of the 21st Century.

I have seen a map showing that there is comparatively little commuter traffic (as opposed to freight or long distance car travel) through and east of the Brynglas Tunnels at peak times. Metro improvements might not help that much.

 

[MarkyT]

View attachment 64050

I have seen a map showing that there is comparatively little commuter traffic (as opposed to freight or long distance car travel) through and east of the Brynglas Tunnels at peak times. Metro improvements might not help that much.

Improvements to longer distance passenger links then. Extra South Wales to Bristol and Gloucester services. Half hourly to London from Swansea. Would require an international approach probably.

 

[oglord]

Would require an international approach probably.

Are there many commuters through the Channel Tunnel?

 

[MarkyT]

Are there many commuters through the Channel Tunnel?

Well in this case I meant a spirit of English/Welsh partnership for specifying and funding cross-border services through the Severn Tunnel. As to cross-channel commuter traffic I suspect there may be SOME regular journeys between east Kent and the continent, but I expect it to be almost 100% private car based.

 

[oglord]

Right, so not international then.

 

[Cardiff123]

When getting the Welsh and UK governments to cooperate with each other for the benefit of the people they are meant to serve, especially when they are controlled by opposing political parties, it often feels like you're trying to get two international governments to cooperate with each other, rather than two domestic governments.

This has none more so been the case since Alun Cairns has been UK Govt Welsh Secretary, sitting in his Ivory Tower in Whitehall sniping at Cardiff Bay at every possible opportunity.

 

[Dai Corner]

When getting the Welsh and UK governments to cooperate with each other for the benefit of the people they are meant to serve, especially when they are controlled by opposing political parties, it often feels like you're trying to get two international governments to cooperate with each other, rather than two domestic governments.

This has none more so been the case since Alun Cairns has been UK Govt Welsh Secretary, sitting in his Ivory Tower in Whitehall sniping at Cardiff Bay at every possible opportunity.

And, to be fair, Welsh politicians giving as good as they get.

 

[squizzler]

This is fantastic news and hopefully the end of big vanity road projects and the beginning of the end of the pollutant economy. The world has to change and begin to live without the motor car and delivery vans as the sole major carriers of goods and passengers.

They dodged being lumbered with a white elephant there. The driverless horseless carriage revolution will, or so we are told, require fewer highway lanes for more throughput and would have rendered it obsolete upon completion.

 

[Envoy]

When getting the Welsh and UK governments to cooperate with each other for the benefit of the people they are meant to serve, especially when they are controlled by opposing political parties, it often feels like you're trying to get two international governments to cooperate with each other, rather than two domestic governments.

This has none more so been the case since Alun Cairns has been UK Govt Welsh Secretary, sitting in his Ivory Tower in Whitehall sniping at Cardiff Bay at every possible opportunity.

I bet that most people in south Wales on hearing the news yesterday that Drakeford was going to ignore the recommendation of the inspector into the M4 at Newport, would have preferred a situation today where the Welsh Government - as they now call it - had not been set up. Cairns would have given the go-ahead to the new M4 as it still would have come under the jurisdiction of the UK Government. In fact, it was in the early 90’s that the then Conservative government paid £3 million for what is not the Black Route to be surveyed and recommended that it go ahead. They lost an election, Labour came to power and Rhodri Morgan said it was not needed as much of the traffic was going to Cwmbran. That is when the new road got built on top of the eastern portal of the Brynglas tunnel. Of course, some traffic was going to Cwmbran but most of the traffic is going in and out of the wider south Wales region. (Rhodri Morgan also cancelled an expressway planned by the Conservatives from near Culverhouse Cross down to Barry and the Airport - and we all now know what a disaster that decision turned out to be. Thank goodness he did not manage to scupper the Cardiff Bay Barrage).

I also note that the Inspector said that only 2% of the green environment would have been affected by the new road. See article :>https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/m4-relief-road-decision-planning-16378925

 

[Dai Corner]

I bet that most people in south Wales on hearing the news yesterday that Drakeford was going to ignore the recommendation of the inspector into the M4 at Newport, would have preferred a situation today where the Welsh Government - as they now call it - had not been set up. Cairns would have given the go-ahead to the new M4 as it still would have come under the jurisdiction of the UK Government. In fact, it was in the early 90’s that the then Conservative government paid £3 million for what is not the Black Route to be surveyed and recommended that it go ahead. They lost an election, Labour came to power and Rhodri Morgan said it was not needed as much of the traffic was going to Cwmbran. That is when the new road got built on top of the eastern portal of the Brynglas tunnel. Of course, some traffic was going to Cwmbran but most of the traffic is going in and out of the wider south Wales region. (Rhodri Morgan also cancelled an expressway planned by the Conservatives from near Culverhouse Cross down to Barry and the Airport - and we all now know what a disaster that decision turned out to be. Thank goodness he did not manage to scupper the Cardiff Bay Barrage).

I also note that the Inspector said that only 2% of the green environment would have been affected by the new road. See article :>https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/m4-relief-road-decision-planning-16378925

He was right to say a lot of the traffic was going to Cwmbran, but it's from the west according to the map I posted above and doesn't go through the Brynglas Tunnels.

To get back to railways, the road built above the eastern portal follows the route of a former railway.

 

[Tom Quinne]

Exactly. Massive spending on public transport is now in the pipeline, which will hopefully mean big improvements to public transport infrastructure around Newport to get local drivers off the M4.

Whilst lots of people have rubbished Prof Mark Barry's ideas on this forum, without him pushing hard over the last few years I doubt we'd have a Metro at all, and he is absolutely right that we need to abandon the car centric planning to infrastructure and communities in the UK, and Wales especially as we move into the middle of the 21st Century.

Those selfish residents of Newport who use the M4 to cross their city clogging up the road for the long distance users...typical selfish local people!

May I ask, do you live in Newport?
Do you suffer every day with the population, travel time increases, effect on local economy, daily traffic jams ?

If you do they you’ll understand why Newport needed the road.

But fear not busses can take the strain lol !

How are those who provide public transport meant to get to their places of work to start the service at stupid o’clock before public transport actually starts ?

 

[krus_aragon]

How are those who provide public transport meant to get to their places of work to start the service at stupid o’clock before public transport actually starts ?

While I accept that those living in the local area will have different opinions to those from further away, I think this last point may have drifted towards hyperbole. If the public transport workers are on their way to work at stupid o'clock, they won't find much road traffic at that time, will they?

Their return journey may land them in rush hour traffic, but I'm not sure if that's the point you were trying to make.