How on earth are services going to be kept running whilst work this disruptive is going on? We will probably see full closure of the line to Pontypridd and bustitution for an extended period.
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South Wales 'Metro' updates
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Gareth Marston
Established Member
none of them its all been specified and pre determined by Transport for Wales/Welsh Government.
Just like every other aspect of the franchise and Metro award process.
So light rail has been determined all along, despite protestastions from TfW and Skates and Jones that there is an on-going competitive procurement process that means 'no comment' is the only answer to any Qs on the Metro. Oh, apart from the fact it will be 'world class'. Can't forget that.
Envoy
Established Member
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Toilets to be locked as out of use on ATW Pacers! Well, this story has now just hit the mainstream press:>
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/toilets-many-arriva-trains-wales-14598405
What is interesting from our point of view is the number of comments that follow from Joe Public. Of course, they blame mainly Arriva but what they don’t get is that this is a precursor to the ordering of a fleet of trams/tram-trains with no toilets to replace ‘normal’ trains in the valleys.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/toilets-many-arriva-trains-wales-14598405
What is interesting from our point of view is the number of comments that follow from Joe Public. Of course, they blame mainly Arriva but what they don’t get is that this is a precursor to the ordering of a fleet of trams/tram-trains with no toilets to replace ‘normal’ trains in the valleys.
Gareth Marston
Established Member
I spot a business opportunity here for "personal toilet" products.
A "Transport for Wales" logo expandable sealed bag for when you get get caught short....
or a "Ken Skates" version - watch him expand as you relieve yourself!
krus_aragon
Established Member
Now you're just taking the p***.
Kyle1
Member
Made of world class materials no doubt.
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Just stick portaloo at each station.
Many of which would probably end up vandalised!
So to will the new, permanent, world class toilets to be installed at every valley lines halt, unless it's 50p a time to relieve yourself.
I wouldn't want to be the person to use one waiting for the first service on a Saturday or Sunday morning
At FMQs this afternoon:
Number of options' on Metro specification
Plaid Cymru's Adam Price asks if the Welsh Government is specifying to bidders that trains on the Metro will be required to have toilets on board that comply with new rules.
There are heckles from opposition AMs when the first minister says they are considering a "number of options", including toilets being required at stations if not on board.
And:
Toilets will not be allowed to be locked'
UKIP's Gareth Bennett expresses concerns about toilets on trains being locked up under the next railway franchise.
The first minister says that will not be allowed under any circumstances
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-parliaments-43989659
Number of options' on Metro specification
Plaid Cymru's Adam Price asks if the Welsh Government is specifying to bidders that trains on the Metro will be required to have toilets on board that comply with new rules.
There are heckles from opposition AMs when the first minister says they are considering a "number of options", including toilets being required at stations if not on board.
And:
Toilets will not be allowed to be locked'
UKIP's Gareth Bennett expresses concerns about toilets on trains being locked up under the next railway franchise.
The first minister says that will not be allowed under any circumstances
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-parliaments-43989659
Gareth Marston
Established Member
I note that the FM didn't use the phrase "world class" - clearly softening us up for the worst....
krus_aragon
Established Member
World class it may be, but are the toilets number 1 or number 2 (in the world)?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
59CosG95
Established Member
I'm sure whatever the toilets are, they'll be palatial compared to the one Renton has to use in Trainspotting...
It's mainly Skates that has to use the words ''world class" and "transformative" (not forgetting "step change") in every sentence.
I'm sure there will be plenty of "world class-ness" going on in 2 weeks time.......
PHILIPE
Veteran Member
Toilets mentioned here:-
www.railforums.co.uk/threads/wales-borders-franchise-consultation.143104/page-80
Gareth Marston
Established Member
Clearly both, depending on what the passenger needs at the time.
There's scope for number one and number two trains. The number ones have fewer shorter stops..........
So if pacer toilets won't be locked they will just be removed.
Angel Trains has never expressed much interest in making the 142s PRM-TSI compliant, id bet they will go off lease at the end of 2019. Porterbrook could remove 144 toilets and make them compliant as they go off lease from Northern from September and then send them to South Wales ASAP. Toilet space used for wheel chair space, bike storage or luggage racks? Same with the 5 x GWR 143s they own. That would be an increase of 3 x 2 coach units and 10 x 3 coach units. I guess its politically better than locking the toilets out of use!
Angel Trains has never expressed much interest in making the 142s PRM-TSI compliant, id bet they will go off lease at the end of 2019. Porterbrook could remove 144 toilets and make them compliant as they go off lease from Northern from September and then send them to South Wales ASAP. Toilet space used for wheel chair space, bike storage or luggage racks? Same with the 5 x GWR 143s they own. That would be an increase of 3 x 2 coach units and 10 x 3 coach units. I guess its politically better than locking the toilets out of use!
Yes but are Pacers (and maybe 153s) structurally sound enough to allow any major structural changes such as this to be done?
Aren't they essentially a 1980's bus body on a freight under-frame, built to last for 10 years maximum and now being pushed beyond 35?
Gareth Marston
Established Member
Whilst we're focussing on toilet trauma and its natural that the opposition party's and media will hit upon this lay issue let's not forget that Core Valley Lines also mean
Other non core valley lines will be stuck with 150's.
The efficient Cardiff cross city network is severed.
Platform congestion at Cardiff Central as the result of the above will severely curtail the desired frequencies.
It's doubtfull whether light rail will provide any more peak seats than at present despite overcrowding being flagged as passengers number one priority.
Other non core valley lines will be stuck with 150's.
The efficient Cardiff cross city network is severed.
Platform congestion at Cardiff Central as the result of the above will severely curtail the desired frequencies.
It's doubtfull whether light rail will provide any more peak seats than at present despite overcrowding being flagged as passengers number one priority.
Gareth Marston
Established Member
I'm not joking but I wouldn't want to bang a proverbial nail into a Pacer they literally could fall apart. Crazy idea to try remove the toilet plus who pays?
And not just overcrowding, actually getting a seat.
But because a local academic has come up with some blue sky thinking, what is common sense to professional railway people, is being torn up for good.
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
You couldn't use the bog space for wheelchair space, there is only a door on one side and the inter-coach gangway would be hazardous in a wheelchair.
The options are:
1) Derogation - ruled out
2) Locking toilets out of use - ruled out
3) Removing toilets
4) Replacing current with Universal Access toilets
Replacing the toilets would be incredibly expensive for an extra 2-3 years use. That leaves removing them and doing something with the space. If most of the structure is intregal then luggage racks would be the best option. If they could be completely removed then there are more options. Has Angel Trains indicated a willingness to upgrade the 142s? I have only seen stuff about Porterbrook i.e. the 23 x two coach 143s, 10 x three coach 144s and 13 x two coach 144s. Thats more than W&B need to increase capacity, especially when the 5 x 769s eventually arrive.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Who has ruled out a derogation?
Another possibility I just thought of assuming Pacer vehicles are independent like Sprinter ones are (I think they are) - get the Northern 142s, scrap the vehicles with bogs, and reform 2-car units without bogs using half of two units.
Another possibility I just thought of assuming Pacer vehicles are independent like Sprinter ones are (I think they are) - get the Northern 142s, scrap the vehicles with bogs, and reform 2-car units without bogs using half of two units.
So if the 'Core Valley lines' transfer still has not been agreed upon (and we have no indication it has been, although that's not unusual from this process) we will be in a situation in 2 weeks where the winning / preferred franchise bidder will be announced yet the plans for the valley lines will still be unclear.
As I've said before, the winning bidder still then has to undertake a survey of the valley lines over the summer to see if their plans are feasible. Although you'd think that NR would be able to give them the info on the state of the VL infrastructure that they need? After all, NR have just completed the biggest modernisation of the VL in 50 years.
I've got a feeling it could still be months yet before the future of the valley lines becomes clear.
As I've said before, the winning bidder still then has to undertake a survey of the valley lines over the summer to see if their plans are feasible. Although you'd think that NR would be able to give them the info on the state of the VL infrastructure that they need? After all, NR have just completed the biggest modernisation of the VL in 50 years.
I've got a feeling it could still be months yet before the future of the valley lines becomes clear.