I agree that the details of the whole plan are a shambles, and have been for many months, but how can we get the support of those who can influence a more sensible approach (upgrade the current HR network and add some new or refurbished trains) before it is too late.
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South Wales 'Metro' updates
- Thread starter Envoy
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I agree that the details of the whole plan are a shambles, and have been for many months, but how can we get the support of those who can influence a more sensible approach (upgrade the current HR network and add some new or refurbished trains) before it is too late.
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If you live in Wales, especially if you live in the proposed 'Metro' area or in the current Valley lines / City Line / Vale of Glamorgan line area, the best course of action is to contact one of your 5 Assembly Members. Everyone has one constituency member and 4 regional members. Find your members here: http://www.senedd.assembly.wales/mgFindMember.aspx
Contacting a Plaid or Conservative member is best, or a Labour member that has been sympathetic to public transport, such as Jenny Rathbone for Cardiff Central or Lee Waters for Llanelli. Contact your MP if they are from an opposition party. If you live in VOG contact the Welsh Secretary! Where AMs can fight is on the complete lack of any transparency that there has been from Welsh Govt / TfW in this whole process. It's despicable that no details are being released for consultation until after the contract and deal is signed and sealed and nothing can be changed.
I also doubt the Unions know anymore than the general public do about the extent to which the Welsh Govt wants to convert the Valleys to trams. The RMT has been suspiciously quiet since they belatedly realised that WG wanted to transfer control of the Core Valley lines to the private operator of the new franchise, but since Carwyn Jones announced that they'll be keeping a guard on every train, they've shut up.
Gareth Marston will no doubt say it's too late and there's no point, WG will do what they want anyway, which is true, but it's worth a try at this late stage.
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Gareth Marston
Established Member
My AMheads an Assembly committee on the economy and has already tacked the lack of transparency to no avail. There's an article in tomorrow's Western Mail about lack of transparency there's plenty of folk making noises and not just on this forum.
Yes, that article is here: http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/blueprint-wales-rail-revolution-must-14061610
The Welsh Govt's response is both baffling and smacks of arrogance and contempt for rail users and stakeholders:
Last spring the Government said it could not publish the draft franchise specification which it planned to give bidders because the specification was “part of the process” of procuring the new train operator, which is due to take over from Arriva Trains Wales in October.
Although the bids must be submitted by today (21st December), the Government says the specification given to bidders in September will remain under wraps for several more months.
A government spokesman said: “Once the service provider has been appointed, next spring, we will make further documents, including the full tender document, public.
“Three companies with world class credentials have been invited to submit final tenders, an invite which included sensitive details which, if released at this stage, risks derailing the process.”
The Government declined to explain why the sensitive details could not be redacted to enable the documents to be released.
That's because now all the bids have been submitted, there are no longer any 'sensitive' details. Do they not understand the process of consultation? What is the point in releasing the ITT after the contract has been awarded! I despair.
The Welsh Govt's response is both baffling and smacks of arrogance and contempt for rail users and stakeholders:
Last spring the Government said it could not publish the draft franchise specification which it planned to give bidders because the specification was “part of the process” of procuring the new train operator, which is due to take over from Arriva Trains Wales in October.
Although the bids must be submitted by today (21st December), the Government says the specification given to bidders in September will remain under wraps for several more months.
A government spokesman said: “Once the service provider has been appointed, next spring, we will make further documents, including the full tender document, public.
“Three companies with world class credentials have been invited to submit final tenders, an invite which included sensitive details which, if released at this stage, risks derailing the process.”
The Government declined to explain why the sensitive details could not be redacted to enable the documents to be released.
That's because now all the bids have been submitted, there are no longer any 'sensitive' details. Do they not understand the process of consultation? What is the point in releasing the ITT after the contract has been awarded! I despair.
The WG non-publishing of the "negative" evolution of the "Metro" project, and the lack of a comparison between heavy-rail (HR) and light-rail (LR) on the initial phases of the to-be network ought to raise questions of competence and even the basis for the upcoming funding/spending decisions they are soon to take.
Also, when will the WG admit that the switch from the current HR to a future LR network will require a complete shutdown (maybe by valley) for a significant period/s of time and for which they probably have no valid replacement plan.
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Gareth Marston
Established Member
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/recruitment-more-300-staff-new-14126347
So much for competitive dialogue its CAF trams for the light rail conversion of valleys lines then!
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
Of course all 3 remaining bidders could have gone with CAF, so it's Hobson's choice?
Maybe the ITT strongly favoured assembly in Wales.
Or maybe WG is buying the stock direct and has chosen CAF already, with the bidders just delivering the service (and building the metro).
It still might leave a competition for the "main line" stock.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Or CAF DMUs or EMUs for a heavy rail metro? I don't think this proves anything?
YorkshireBear
Established Member
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The investment simply looks to be in jobs for the area. Not saying CAF are going to build welsh trains. (Although i bet the built in Wales tag will help!)
Gareth Marston
Established Member
don't worry it will be a central plank of the official announcement that some new trains/trams for the franchise will be built in Wales Carwhinge and Ken will be jostling to be seen with the high viz on at the factory.
It doesn't directly prove anything, but the more you join the dots up with what has been announced about the Metro so far, the more you begin to realise Welsh Govt have made most of the crucial decisions already, at least 12 months ago I reckon, and the 'dialogue' has been very much one way
The new 'Metro delivery partnership plan' announced last month between Cardiff Council and the Welsh Govt to deliver not just the 3 years late replacement for Cardiff Bus station, but the new bus station will be part of a 'Metro interchange' to the north Cardiff Central, run by Transport for Wales.
Then there's the land that Welsh Govt bought at Taffs Well. This has been touted as a tram depot as the trams obviously won't be allowed into Canton. Of course it could still be used as a DMU / EMU or bi-mode depot if the fleet is expanded and there's no space at Canton, but this seems unlikely IMO.
And this announcement today of '£50 million to support the Metro integrated transport public transport project' suggests, as Gareth Marston has said, Welsh Govt want shiny new rolling stock on the Valleys, not cascaded trains, and what will be cheapest for them?
The last disclaimer about this article is that it's written by Sion Barry, a Wales Online journalist who has been heavily biased towards light rail on the Valleys for years and seems to support every transport policy Welsh Govt has, whether it be road or rail, unquestioningly.
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Gareth Marston
Established Member
There's a rumour going round that the 3 bidders were all given ITT's with different specs..........
Dai Corner
Established Member
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Didn't the WG originally say 'We're not sure what we want, we'll see what bidders offer and then decide"? If so, it seems they still don't, even after all the discussions so far.
I'll admit to not knowing much about the particulars of tendering law, but that seems a little peculiar and sounds like it wouldn't stand up to much scrutiny in the event of a dispute once the contract award has been announced...
That would explain why WG are refusing to release the ITT on the grounds that 'it contains commercially sensitive details that if released, risks derailing the award process'.
Yes, like this turning into Wales' very own ICWC 2012 style crisis, with the bidders suing you.
Or maybe the bidders were each given ITT specs based on the ideas that they came up with.
But I thought the whole point of the competitive dialogue with the bidders was for the WG to then pull together all the best ideas of the bidders to write the final ITT.
But we've had rumours before that haven't been true.
In the Assembly Plenary on roads yesterday, Welsh Labour AM for Llanelli, Lee Waters, seems to be the only dissenting voice in the chamber (possibly along with his colleague for Cardiff Central, Jenny Rathbone sat next to him, who isn't shown in this clip) speaking any sense on the problems and causes of traffic congestion and how to tackle it for the 21st Century.
5 minute clip here: http://www.senedd.tv/Meeting/Clip/0...536498972fa?inPoint=3:05:32&outPoint=3:11:05#
5 minute clip here: http://www.senedd.tv/Meeting/Clip/0...536498972fa?inPoint=3:05:32&outPoint=3:11:05#
Gareth Marston
Established Member
sadly par for the course - the UKIP numpty's don't help either
So as we learn that Carillion is in dire financial trouble, this could have serious complications for the award of the new franchise and Metro contract.
The three bidders left are all partnered with construction firms to deliver the upgrade and development of the Metro.
Unfortunately for Welsh Govt and TfW, Abellio are partnered with Carillion.
http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2017/11/01/costain-drops-out-of-600m-south-wales-metro-race/
The three bidders left are all partnered with construction firms to deliver the upgrade and development of the Metro.
Unfortunately for Welsh Govt and TfW, Abellio are partnered with Carillion.
http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2017/11/01/costain-drops-out-of-600m-south-wales-metro-race/
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Gareth Marston
Established Member
An interesting question and well remembered/spotted gareth950. I'll fires off a few questions.
Given what we now know about the scale of Carillion's financial black hole and the fact that their finances have been in a mess for over a year, I fail to see how Welsh Govt can even consider awarding Abeillo and Carillion the 15 year contract now. Even if Carillion are bailed out by the UK government, it would be akin to awarding a large public contract to RBS immediately post 2008 banking crash.
I know nothing about procurement law but just stating the screaming obvious here. Whether Welsh Govt admit it or not (most likely not) the award process must be in trouble now.
And the prospects of ATW getting a franchise extension become even greater. Of course that will involve WG going to the DfT to ask for them to grant one............
Gareth Marston
Established Member
" I asked the WG to explain whether and how Abellio can remain in the franchise contest, but they said they don’t comment on procurement processes"
One suspects theirs a lot of flapping about at Transport for Wales given Abeilio were in many peoples eyes "favorite" given their bid teams links with Welsh Labour.
Welsh Govt will be forced to comment. They can't keep a news blackout on this development. There are clearly now only two bidders left.
The wisdom of a Labour administration wanting to take the publicly owned Valley lines infrastructure off Network Rail to hand over to a private contractor must also be questioned. It doesn't exactly fit with the Labour leadership's nationalisation agenda.
Maybe the RMT will wake up to this as well, but I suspect they were bribed into shutting up about it with the 'guard on every train' announcement.
CardiffKid
Member
Can anyone make any sense of this?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-42689172
http://www.cardiffcapitalregioncity...s-deal-funding-metro-central-development.html
The image shows the proposed new rear entrance to Cardiff Central complete with a tram stop.
And another image shows a dedicated entrance from platforms 1 & 2 (although I'm not sure if this is at the front or back?) either way it looks like the new rear entrance completed just over a year ago is to go.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-42689172
http://www.cardiffcapitalregioncity...s-deal-funding-metro-central-development.html
The image shows the proposed new rear entrance to Cardiff Central complete with a tram stop.
And another image shows a dedicated entrance from platforms 1 & 2 (although I'm not sure if this is at the front or back?) either way it looks like the new rear entrance completed just over a year ago is to go.
WelshBluebird
Established Member
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Confirmation of what we all knew? (that the plan is for trams for the valleys).
CardiffKid
Member
See page 76 and 77 (pages of the PDF file/document) of this: https://tfw.gov.wales/sites/default/files/documents/SHRA South Wales Metro.pdf
Scheme 26 -"LR conversion of existing HR lines between Cardiff Queen St and Merthyr / Treherbert / Aberdare"
Scheme 17 - "LR on-street diversion of Coryton line HR alignment @ Heath Holt Rd (via Heath Hospital) and re-joining HR alignment @ Wedal Rd - Cost £72.3m - Well rated due to expected increase in use and locality to major employer. On-street impacts punctuality"
Scheme 21 - "LR on-street link between Cardiff Bay & Cardiff Central via Dumballs Rd (Phase 2) - Cost £48.8m - Strong across all metrics, particularly related to accessibility and regeneration though would also provide increased capacity between CDF and CDQ"
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From page 11 of the report, under 2.8.2 Operational effects:
"The new Metro transport will also not have any toilet facilities on board which will reduce the amount of waste discharged in the rail corridors."
So basically, from reading that report, CASR, Platform 8 and the new rear entrance at Cardiff Central was all a massive waste of time and money. Got to love the Welsh Government.
I'm astounded that there's no shouting about this coming from opposition parties in Wales - but it's all been kept top secret.
"The new Metro transport will also not have any toilet facilities on board which will reduce the amount of waste discharged in the rail corridors."
So basically, from reading that report, CASR, Platform 8 and the new rear entrance at Cardiff Central was all a massive waste of time and money. Got to love the Welsh Government.
I'm astounded that there's no shouting about this coming from opposition parties in Wales - but it's all been kept top secret.
WelshBluebird
Established Member
- Joined
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I dare not think how disgusting the later night weekend services are going to be then!
Wonder how this will actually be sold to the public? No toilets, no through ticketing, less comfortable, but look shiny!
CardiffKid
Member
Amusingly twelve months ago a Conservative AM asked about Platform 8 - and dispite the WG singing the praises of the investment normally, they completely washed their hands and pointed out that it was designed by Network Rail and paid for by Westminster:
Mohammad Asghar (South Wales East): Will the Minister advise why the signalling on the new Platform 8 at Cardiff Central Station has been placed so that passengers have to embark and disembark on an uncovered section of the platform? (WAQ71610)
Ken Skates: The new platform is part of a Network Rail project being funded by the UK Government. Network Rail have indicated that the new platform canopy is the length of two train units which means a significant number of passengers will be undercover. Although this investment is welcome, we are pressing for the UK government to redevelop the station in the next industry funding round, between 2019 and 2024.
But as for the rest of the document, I found it last week after a friend showed me one of the maps that he'd been given. It's not exactly an accessible plan and I'll bet there are a lot of political and non political stakeholders who haven't seen it.Ken Skates: The new platform is part of a Network Rail project being funded by the UK Government. Network Rail have indicated that the new platform canopy is the length of two train units which means a significant number of passengers will be undercover. Although this investment is welcome, we are pressing for the UK government to redevelop the station in the next industry funding round, between 2019 and 2024.
That's rubbish from Ken Skates - it was not an entirely funded and specified Westminster project. Welsh Government specified the 16 tph expectation between Central and Queen St in 2011/12. Welsh Govt funded a large part of the project. And trains stop under the canopy at the rear of the platform anyway.
We're still to learn the effect the collapse of Carillion will have on the award process. The only way I can see these plans now being halted is if the DfT refuse to transfer the ownership and control of the Valley lines from NR to Welsh Govt. Otherwise heavy rail on the Valleys and the network as it operates currently is finished.
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LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
Maybe Abellio, having lost Carillion as a credible partner for the W&B franchise/metro contract, can persuade Costain, who were Arriva's partner before they pulled out, to take over Carillion's role.
We also don't know the reason for Arriva's withdrawal - it might have been instigated by Costain.
But there must be some loss of confidence in the contracting industry if a giant like Carillion can come to grief so quickly.It's only a couple of years since Balfour Beatty nearly collapsed, and they were almost taken over by...Carillion.
We also don't know the reason for Arriva's withdrawal - it might have been instigated by Costain.
But there must be some loss of confidence in the contracting industry if a giant like Carillion can come to grief so quickly.