South Wales 'Metro' updates

[Gareth Marston]

This sort of stuffs been going for decades but is generally swept under the carpet and glossed over. The new section of the A470 between Newbridge on Wye and Llanellwedd was hailed as great success delivered on time and on budget by Welsh Government but the figure given for the cost on completion was £12 million more than what was being quoted in public when the scheme was launched. The press office tied themselves in knots trying to explain it as a positive!

I suspect this bit of the A465 has seriously gone pear shaped for Skates to be going public about it. Ive always suspected that low stated construction costs are used in order to help bodge the BCR to make these projects look worthwhile and the real costs are then covered by muddy accounting but its probably at a stage where "please sir we need more £" from the contractor cant be met without materially effecting other stuff.

 

[Envoy]

Plans have been released for land south west of Cardiff Central station. http://www.centralquay.co.uk

Following the workshop the design has evolved and this web site sets out our early concepts on which we welcome your feedback.

Press:>http://www.walesonline.co.uk/busine...sformation-brains-brewery-site-begin-13910124

The SA Brain site could accommodate up to 1. 5 million sq ft of mixed-use development.
However, this could increase to over 2 million square feet, if combined with Network Rail’s land, some six acres, at what is currently a surface car park immediately south of the Cardiff Central train station and which is next to the SA Brain site.

 

[Envoy]

A new press release has appeared on Wales on Line regarding Cardiff Central/Metro/Bus Station.

The joint venture is effectively a joined up approach to land ownership to deliver Metro related transport infrastructure projects.

And it will also look to deliver other Metro related schemes, including improvements to Cardiff Central Railway Station - needed to ensure it can cope with rising passengers numbers that will be further boosted when the next phase of the Metro, with electrification of the Valley Lines, is realised

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/commercial-property/work-new-bus-station-centre-14033702

 

[gareth950]

With the closing date for bidders to present their ideas for the Metro and new franchise this Thursday (21st December), I thought I'd remind us about the article written by Ian Walmsley in the November 2013 issue of Modern Railways that started the debate about whether the Valleys should be converted to tram or tram-train operation.

A shorter version of the article appeared on Wales Online in June 2014 here:

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/tram-train-system-best-way-modernise-7214111

 

[gareth950]

The extent to which Transport for Wales wants to convert the existing heavy rail network that currently makes up the 'Valley lines' in SE Wales to light rail has now been unofficially revealed.

https://tfw.gov.wales/projects/south-wales-metro-0

Under the 'Documents' tab are on the link above 'Impact assessments', where TfW's potential plans & ideas have been revealed in detail for the first time. The only lines left as heavy rail are Cardiff Central - Barry - Vale of Glamorgan and Ebbw Vale.
There's even a suggestion to convert the City Line to light rail between Ninian Park and Radyr. Presumably the millions that was spent on double tracking from Central to Ninian Park around Canton as part of CASR would be redundant and possibly never used, along with the resignalling of Cardiff Central - Queen Street.
No heavy rail electrification is proposed anywhere, at all, apart from possible HR electrification and doubling of Ebbw Vale, which 'has been discontinued from further consideration at present'.

My 17 minute direct commute from Cogan to Cathays will be no more.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Indeed the much vaunted "Metro" Has been descoped to providing ligh rail on existing heavy rail lines north of Queen St, tarting up a couple of bus stations with a handful of new LR stops. Everything else has been kicked into the long grass.

 

[gareth950]

Anyone who commutes from the Vale of Glamorgan and Barry to anywhere beyond Cardiff Central will see their commute get much longer and become much more difficult, involving changing from a train at Cardiff Central and having to leave the station and get on a tram which then winds it way through the congested streets of central Cardiff.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It's the same dilemma the folk of Knutsford and Northwich faced when Metrolink started, destroying through journeys via Sale/Stretford to Manchester.
There is some logic in splitting the network at Cardiff Central, and it gives Transport Wales total control of the Metro system.
I hope the RMT is paying attention, because they won't want guards on the Metro.

 

[Bwlch y Groes]

I've said it before and I'll say it again - what an appalling waste of public money, time and infrastructure

The stations they're talking about adding are the ones that have been on the table for years and were dismissed. I imagine these may end up mostly going the same way. It'll just end up with what we have now but more and worse

 

[gareth950]

It's the same dilemma the folk of Knutsford and Northwich faced when Metrolink started, destroying through journeys via Sale/Stretford to Manchester.
There is some logic in splitting the network at Cardiff Central, and it gives Transport Wales total control of the Metro system.
I hope the RMT is paying attention, because they won't want guards on the Metro.

I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree with you. From an operational perspective it makes absolutely zero sense to split up the currently through linked Valleys, Vale of Glamorgan and City lines at Cardiff Central.

It also makes zero sense severing the 3 minute heavy rail link between Central and Queen Street and similarly between Ninian Park and Central - both of which have recently been re-signalled in anticipation of extra trains that may now never come.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Maybe there will be a tram-train solution for overlaps (as in Karlsruhe, noted by Ian Walmsley in his article).
Unless it is all-LR or all-HR, there are bound to be issues where the networks join.

 

[Gareth Marston]

It's the same dilemma the folk of Knutsford and Northwich faced when Metrolink started, destroying through journeys via Sale/Stretford to Manchester.
There is some logic in splitting the network at Cardiff Central, and it gives Transport Wales total control of the Metro system.
I hope the RMT is paying attention, because they won't want guards on the Metro.

I suspect you hit the nail on the head it's about "control" not what's best for the people of South Wales Welsh Labour/ Assembly are obsessed with power and control even when the outcome is misaligned with what's right to do.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Maybe there will be a tram-train solution for overlaps (as in Karlsruhe, noted by Ian Walmsley in his article).
Unless it is all-LR or all-HR, there are bound to be issues where the networks join.

I suspect anyone in Germany or elsewhere will be scratching there heads at why you want to do Light Rail 25 miles out from the centre and still not connect to the main line railway station! It's Light rail to Queen St not Central that's proposed. Universally Light Rail does 15 miles out max and invariably does cross city journeys. The TFW plan is totally at odds with international best practice.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree with you. From an operational perspective it makes absolutely zero sense to split up the currently through linked Valleys, Vale of Glamorgan and City lines at Cardiff Central.

It also makes zero sense severing the 3 minute heavy rail link between Central and Queen Street and similarly between Ninian Park and Central - both of which have recently been re-signalled in anticipation of extra trains that may now never come.

And just how many people will be forced to change modes at Queen St? It's Queen St that the Light Rail will reach not Central. A station totally in capable of handling 8 terminating trains an hour from the Vale and interchanges amounting to a million plus.

 

[gareth950]

And just how many people will be forced to change modes at Queen St? It's Queen St that the Light Rail will reach not Central. A station totally in capable of handling 8 terminating trains an hour from the Vale and interchanges amounting to a million plus.

Looking at the 'Central Cardiff Package' maps, scheme 7 is an 'LR on-street link from Queen St to Central, joining existing HR alignment at Herbert St bridge'. Scheme 15 is an 'LR station at Herbert St bridge on the existing Cardiff Bay HR alignment', which is when the Valley lines have climbed above and are clear of the main line, and so are technically separated from the Network Rail infrastructure at this point.
So I'm assuming that Vale of Glamorgan trains would terminate at Central.

The Central Cardiff maps especially look like someone has just drawn different coloured lines on a map using paint with no idea of the traffic or existing rail links in Cardiff, or current travel patterns.

This is all totally about ownership. Welsh Govt wanted complete devolution of Network Rail in Wales - Westminster said a firm NO. Carwyn Jones and Ken Skates have a tantrum. They then decide to change every line that they possibly can to light rail, so that THEY can control it, even if it means severing connections with Cardiff Central station. E.g. converting the City Line between Radyr and Ninian Park to light rail but not connecting into Central. There's even a suggestion of 'LR conversion of existing Maesteg line between Cardiff Central and Maesteg' (an 'amber' possibility line) instead of 'Track doubling of Maesteg line from Garth to Tondu' which is a red 'rejected' line. Do these people even realise that Maesteg trains share the SWML?

Leaving the Valley lines as is and buying a load of CAF 195s would be better than these plans. I say that not because I am anti-LR and am a HR enthusiast. Far from it. LR has it's place, but this is not it. The Valleys, City Lines and Vale of Glamorgan lines network is currently a highly efficient, interconnected network. These plans would make existing journeys more difficult and longer, not easier and shorter.

It's not just the RMT that needs to be worried by these plans. AFAIK, the few remaining collieries at the heads of the Valleys haven't been told they'll have to close yet.

 

[edwin_m]

I suspect anyone in Germany or elsewhere will be scratching there heads at why you want to do Light Rail 25 miles out from the centre

Not in Karlsruhe they won't. According to Wikipedia the longest tram-train journey takes three hours (about 120km IIRC, though it is cross-city).

 

[Gareth Marston]

Apologies it's all a bit muddy and there are inconsistencies between the text and the maps. For example the Light Rail services from Merthyr/Treherbert/Aberdare terminate at Queen St in text and maps whilst the Rhymney Valley ones extend to Central on the maps but not in the text!

It really is no more than a power grab on "core valley lines" with very little happening beyond conversion to Light Rail it is not a South Wales Metro as all the other stuff has been deferred.

It also contradicts all the rubbish about competitive dialogue with bidders as this has been specified by TfW.

And unless TfW have discovered magic trams with the same seating capacity as Heavy Rail EMU's Valleys Folk will be traveling from as far out as Pontypridd or even further in short distance high density standing spaces.....

 

[NotATrainspott]

What does conversion to light rail actually mean in practice? Light rail could encompass a very wide range of technical components and solutions. Trying to work out exactly what the final outcome would be from a set of environmental, ecological and heritage docs is rather hard.

If light rail is done right, the reduction in seating capacity and ride quality (compared to a modern DMU, like a 195) is outweighed by increases in frequency and convenience. Those benefits are made financially or technically possible by the use of light rail systems. If you just convert DMUs to light rail vehicles, add in a few extra stations on the cheap, and call it a day the outcome will actually be worse than what you had before. Light rail has to be thought of as a way of making transport better, not just cheaper.

 

[daikilo]

What does conversion to light rail actually mean in practice? Light rail could encompass a very wide range of technical components and solutions. Trying to work out exactly what the final outcome would be from a set of environmental, ecological and heritage docs is rather hard.

If light rail is done right, the reduction in seating capacity and ride quality (compared to a modern DMU, like a 195) is outweighed by increases in frequency and convenience. Those benefits are made financially or technically possible by the use of light rail systems. If you just convert DMUs to light rail vehicles, add in a few extra stations on the cheap, and call it a day the outcome will actually be worse than what you had before. Light rail has to be thought of as a way of making transport better, not just cheaper.

This is the crux of the matter which the WG doesn't seem to understand. As Gareth has remarked, according to the maps in the Mott Macdonald report, almost all of the parts of the schemes representing extensions from the current heavy rail network, and which might justify looking at light rail (LR) as a solution to serving such areas are either abandoned, have become bus or are seen as needing more review.

Also, the environmental benefit of light rail in say Cardiff centre seems to be questioned in the text by comments concerning the dramatic reductions that are happening and are expected in private car emissions (no mention of bus emissions).

For me, a key iissue which I don't see any reference to, is that unless all stations are rebuilt with low platforms then the LR will need high-floor trams as in Manchester. This also means that any new sections of line such as shown on the maps will also need high platforms unless the trams have both high and low doors.

Finally, I remain intrigued as to how anyone can bid for either the operation or the new infrastructure with so little clarity on what will actually be approved and when. Indeed, I still believe that during any "conversion" period operations will have to stop unless the costly and slow solution of night-time only work is adopted.

 

[Gareth Marston]

What does conversion to light rail actually mean in practice? Light rail could encompass a very wide range of technical components and solutions. Trying to work out exactly what the final outcome would be from a set of environmental, ecological and heritage docs is rather hard.

If light rail is done right, the reduction in seating capacity and ride quality (compared to a modern DMU, like a 195) is outweighed by increases in frequency and convenience. Those benefits are made financially or technically possible by the use of light rail systems. If you just convert DMUs to light rail vehicles, add in a few extra stations on the cheap, and call it a day the outcome will actually be worse than what you had before. Light rail has to be thought of as a way of making transport better, not just cheaper.

The biggest complaint is getting seating on current services. You have to bear in mind that Pontypridd to Cardiff is already 6 tph now, Caerphilly 4 tph. Most peak services are already 4 car DMU's. Even if there are trams following each other in line of sight south of Pontypridd they will struggle to provide the same seating capacity as now let alone address expanding capacity. Theirs peak overcrowding with 1000 seats per hour south of Pontypridd now and it extends further north than that. Light Rail will only cope by virtue of its standing environment they are designed for however most light rail cars have only around 20 seats per car..... Theirs also no toilets on them and the Head of the valleys are a good 50 minutes to downtown Cardiff, of course you can add a toilet by reducing seating and or standing capacity.......

At Off Peak times then yes it will be an improvement and the system will cope but there will be howls of protest from Day One about peak seating capacity and on Millennium Days.

 

[NotATrainspott]

The biggest complaint is getting seating on current services. You have to bear in mind that Pontypridd to Cardiff is already 6 tph now, Caerphilly 4 tph. Most peak services are already 4 car DMU's. Even if there are trams following each other in line of sight south of Pontypridd they will struggle to provide the same seating capacity as now let alone address expanding capacity. Theirs peak overcrowding with 1000 seats per hour south of Pontypridd now and it extends further north than that. Light Rail will only cope by virtue of its standing environment they are designed for however most light rail cars have only around 20 seats per car..... Theirs also no toilets on them and the Head of the valleys are a good 50 minutes to downtown Cardiff, of course you can add a toilet by reducing seating and or standing capacity.......

At Off Peak times then yes it will be an improvement and the system will cope but there will be howls of protest from Day One about peak seating capacity and on Millennium Days.

As I was saying though, the term 'light rail' is rather expansive. At one end of the scale it could be like the Essen Stadtbahn with fairly long high-floor metro-style vehicles permitted to share the roads. At the other, you've got tiny little 3-segment trams with little more capacity than a bus. Until the Welsh Government is clear what it actually technically means by conversion, it won't be easy to determine how well the scheme might work.

What I would like to see is a good technical justification for moving away from heavy rail. Something like this shouldn't be hard to come up with if their plans are actually good. For instance, they might have an aim for the metro of having a minimum of 5tph along all branches. Then they can come up with a pricetag to deliver that with heavy rail, and with light rail. Another example would be looking at the cost of extending a line: heavy rail would cost £X amount because of the new bridges and signalling and whatnot, while light rail would cost £Y. This sort of analysis is where you can demonstrate what light rail makes possible.

 

[gareth950]

Apologies it's all a bit muddy and there are inconsistencies between the text and the maps. For example the Light Rail services from Merthyr/Treherbert/Aberdare terminate at Queen St in text and maps whilst the Rhymney Valley ones extend to Central on the maps but not in the text!

It really is no more than a power grab on "core valley lines" with very little happening beyond conversion to Light Rail it is not a South Wales Metro as all the other stuff has been deferred.

It also contradicts all the rubbish about competitive dialogue with bidders as this has been specified by TfW.

And unless TfW have discovered magic trams with the same seating capacity as Heavy Rail EMU's Valleys Folk will be traveling from as far out as Pontypridd or even further in short distance high density standing spaces.....

I agree the maps are confusing as to what will be happening in Central Cardiff, with the central Cardiff map suggesting on-street running between Central station and Herbert St on the Bay line, but the Rhymney maps suggesting conversion of the existing HR line between Central station and Queen St, which is described as 'included in phase 2'. Either way there will be a mass change from trains to trams necessary and journeys that are quick and simple through Cardiff now will take much longer and become much more difficult and less attractive.

If these proposals happen I can see car use from the Vale of Glamorgan into Cardiff increasing not decreasing, especially as any enhancements to the HR diesel service on the VOG is described as only possibly being included in phase 2 (so will most likely never happen).

I totally agree 110% with your power grab comments. That's what the Metro project has been about on the Valley lines from the start. Anything that can have the 'Transport for Wales' branding applied to it will do. If the whole franchise had been fully devolved to Welsh Govt it would be called the 'Transport for Wales' franchise. TfW will be running the new central Cardiff 'Metro interchange', or to more accurately describe it, mini bus station that has finally been agreed this month.

 

[Gareth Marston]

As I was saying though, the term 'light rail' is rather expansive. At one end of the scale it could be like the Essen Stadtbahn with fairly long high-floor metro-style vehicles permitted to share the roads. At the other, you've got tiny little 3-segment trams with little more capacity than a bus. Until the Welsh Government is clear what it actually technically means by conversion, it won't be easy to determine how well the scheme might work.

What I would like to see is a good technical justification for moving away from heavy rail. Something like this shouldn't be hard to come up with if their plans are actually good. For instance, they might have an aim for the metro of having a minimum of 5tph along all branches. Then they can come up with a pricetag to deliver that with heavy rail, and with light rail. Another example would be looking at the cost of extending a line: heavy rail would cost £X amount because of the new bridges and signalling and whatnot, while light rail would cost £Y. This sort of analysis is where you can demonstrate what light rail makes possible.

Presumably the bidders will come up with what flavor of Light Rail it is within the confines of TfW boundary's for it. Whether we get a justification for it or explanation as why they think its better than heavy rail i doubt it. It will be announced as the greatest thing since sliced bread knowing Welsh Government and following all the pain of construction the smiles at the opening ceremony will not last long......

 

[B&I]

Yes, that probably makes more sense. Get 769s in on diesel on all services, get the wires up (and start using them) as and when funds allow, and once all the wires are up it'll be time for a new fleet of EMUs. Like 230s are perfect for the Marston Vale "niche" (needing a DMU with about 10 years' life suitable for 2x20m platforms - I still reckon these three units will be the only 230s sold) 769s are perfect for this "niche" (a 4x20m bi-mode with about 10 years' life available quickly).

Apologies if this has already been discussed ad nauseam, but would D trains on the valley be workable on at least the Valley Lines through Queen Street, pending electrification and new / cascaded EMUs ? I assume most sections of those lines are pretty low speed. Could the remaining services through Central be re-configured so that anything passing through Central uses 75 mph stock, or are there too few destinations east of Central to pair with destinations west of it? Could some sort of fixed link be installed between Central and Queen Street to enable connections between the 2 parts of the system?

 

[Envoy]

Apologies if this has already been discussed ad nauseam, but would D trains on the valley be workable on at least the Valley Lines through Queen Street, pending electrification and new / cascaded EMUs ? I assume most sections of those lines are pretty low speed. Could the remaining services through Central be re-configured so that anything passing through Central uses 75 mph stock, or are there too few destinations east of Central to pair with destinations west of it? Could some sort of fixed link be installed between Central and Queen Street to enable connections between the 2 parts of the system?

I would have thought that the obvious places to ‘pair’ west & east of Cardiff Central would be Maesteg to Ebbw Vale. Surely they deserve a 30 minute service frequency and the population demand would be reasonably even on both the west & east sections? However, I would think that trains being used on these services should be capable of 100 mph as they would be on fast sections of the mainline. As these trains would not be going into Newport (from the west), there would be little point in them serving any new stations that are proposed for the relief lines between Cardiff & Newport. (It is essential that stations such as St.Mellons convey people to/from Newport in order that they can access mainline services to/from England).

 

[gareth950]

It's now painfully clear why the Welsh Govt have refused to release the ITT and have hidden behind the 'competitive dialogue process' to keep their plans top secret. They don't want any public, stakeholder, industry or cross party scrutiny of their plans until the contracts are signed and it's too late to change anything, presenting the final outcome as a fait accompli.

It may also partly explain Arriva's decision to walk away as they know what's coming. Industrial action is also surely on the cards.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Apologies if this has already been discussed ad nauseam, but would D trains on the valley be workable on at least the Valley Lines through Queen Street, pending electrification and new / cascaded EMUs ? I assume most sections of those lines are pretty low speed. Could the remaining services through Central be re-configured so that anything passing through Central uses 75 mph stock, or are there too few destinations east of Central to pair with destinations west of it? Could some sort of fixed link be installed between Central and Queen Street to enable connections between the 2 parts of the system?

D trains have been rejected - after all the Welsh Government Ministers want something shiny and new even if its the wrong thing for the passengers...

Current Frequencies on local services through Central that don't go inot the Valleys are

West/South
Swanline Swansea to Caridff 1 train per 2 hours
Maesteg 1 tph
Radyr via City Line 2 tph
Barry Island 3 tph
Bridgend via VOG 2 tph
Penarth 4 tph

East
Cheltenham Spa 1 tph with some 3 hour gaps
Ebbw Vale 1 tph.

 

[gareth950]

D trains have been rejected - after all the Welsh Government Ministers want something shiny and new even if its the wrong thing for the passengers...

Current Frequencies on local services through Central that don't go inot the Valleys are

West/South
Swanline Swansea to Caridff 1 train per 2 hours
Maesteg 1 tph
Radyr via City Line 2 tph
Barry Island 3 tph
Bridgend via VOG 2 tph
Penarth 4 tph

East
Cheltenham Spa 1 tph with some 3 hour gaps
Ebbw Vale 1 tph.

Bridgend via VOG should be 2 - 3 tph but is currently only 1 tph calling all stops.

 

[daikilo]

D trains have been rejected - after all the Welsh Government Ministers want something shiny and new even if its the wrong thing for the passengers...

Current Frequencies on local services through Central that don't go inot the Valleys are

West/South
Swanline Swansea to Caridff 1 train per 2 hours
Maesteg 1 tph
Radyr via City Line 2 tph
Barry Island 3 tph
Bridgend via VOG 2 tph
Penarth 4 tph

East
Cheltenham Spa 1 tph with some 3 hour gaps
Ebbw Vale 1 tph.

Gareth, lest anyone misubnderstands your post "that go through Central that don't go into the Valleys", the Barry Islands generally go to Merthyr/Treherbert and the Penarths to Rhymney. Not actually in the valleys, the Radyrs also go to Coryton and some of the Maestegs to Cheltenham.

It is interesting that the report makes specific reference to the benefits of cross city bus services but makes no mention of the cross-city trains, some of which have been running for I guess at least a century.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Gareth, lest anyone misubnderstands your post "that go through Central that don't go into the Valleys", the Barry Islands generally go to Merthyr/Treherbert and the Penarths to Rhymney. Not actually in the valleys, the Radyrs also go to Coryton and some of the Maestegs to Cheltenham.

It is interesting that the report makes specific reference to the benefits of cross city bus services but makes no mention of the cross-city trains, some of which have been running for I guess at least a century.

If anybody but Welsh Government wanted to improve transport across a city it would involve cross city services. Ok you might pair up Maestehg and Chtenham / Ebbw Vale but Cardiff Central is going to be one operational nightmare of turning around 8 DMUs's per hour from Penarth and Vales. Presumably this is why the light rail from Merthyr et al terminates at Queen St as there's no space for it at Central an utter shambles.