South Wales 'Metro' updates

[Envoy]

Cardiff Council's current planners (who are not politically aligned to the make up of the council) are 'yes men' to any private multi million or billion pound developments in Cardiff.

If the 24 storey ABP proposed 'Dolffin Quay' development in the Bay goes ahead, the Bay as it is now will be completely, irrerversibly ruined and traffic congestion in the area will be hellish.

Not just Dolffin Quay but also a ‘student’ tower awaiting planning permission in Park Place - right next to Victorian architecture. Then we have the plans to put a massive tower hotel emerging from the listed Custom House just north of the main railway as it leaves Cardiff Central.

On the following link:> Park Place is 17/01848 (no more objections accepted as date gone); Tower Hotel at Custom House is 17/01907 & Dolffin Quay (Britannia Park as it is now) is 17/01848.
http://planning.cardiff.gov.uk/online-applications/

 

[gareth950]

Interestingly this week Cardiff Bus have introduced many new through routes across the city, so you can travel through the city from north to south, east to west etc. without changing buses.

Something that has been possible on the Cardiff Valleys network though Queen St and Central station for decades.
But if we believe the spin that WG and TfW have been putting out about the 'special' Core Valleys, plans are being drawn up behind closed doors to dismantle this.

No new info is available, just my observations.

 

[Envoy]

Interestingly this week Cardiff Bus have introduced many new through routes across the city, so you can travel through the city from north to south, east to west etc. without changing buses.

Something that has been possible on the Cardiff Valleys network though Queen St and Central station for decades.
But if we believe the spin that WG and TfW have been putting out about the 'special' Core Valleys, plans are being drawn up behind closed doors to dismantle this.

No new info is available, just my observations.

This could be because the new ‘bus station’ is going to be too small to cope with buses that terminate near the Central Station. They therefore need to have buses crossing the city that pass near to the Central Station. It may also have been prompted by the success of NAT services who have introduced cross city services which have poached passengers from Cardiff Bus as the latter had a policy of making people change in the city centre. (Seems to me that the management at NAT really know what they are doing)!

 

[krus_aragon]

This could be because the new ‘bus station’ is going to be too small to cope with buses that terminate near the Central Station. They therefore need to have buses crossing the city that pass near to the Central Station. It may also have been prompted by the success of NAT services who have introduced cross city services which have poached passengers from Cardiff Bus as the latter had a policy of making people change in the city centre. (Seems to me that the management at NAT really know what they are doing)!

That sounds similar to what was done about six years ago when the Central Bus Station buildings (and rank A) were demolished: on that occasion several routes stopped service Central Station and started doing a circuit of the city centre stops before going back the away they came, lingering at one such stop for a few minutes recovery time.

 

[gareth950]

This could be because the new ‘bus station’ is going to be too small to cope with buses that terminate near the Central Station. They therefore need to have buses crossing the city that pass near to the Central Station. It may also have been prompted by the success of NAT services who have introduced cross city services which have poached passengers from Cardiff Bus as the latter had a policy of making people change in the city centre. (Seems to me that the management at NAT really know what they are doing)!

It most likely is to do with the current lack of any bus station in the city centre at all, and the fact that any new bus station is at least 2 years away anyway. And then when the new bus station does finally materialise it won't have enough capacity.

If it's not bad enough that Cardiff's 'professional' Planners are ****ing up the city, clogging it up with high rise blocks, Welsh Govt civil servants want to **** up the current joined up local Cardiff rail network as well by severing it's cross city links.

 

[gareth950]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-41362776

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-wal...s-m4-relief-road-is-not-way-to-cut-congestion

Welsh Labour AM for Llanelli, Lee Waters, has spoken out against his own party's plans for the M4 relief road, to be aired in full on tomorrow mornings Sunday Politics Wales.
I agree fully with every word he says. It's just common sense. There won't be enough money to build the Metro public transport system that South Wales needs if over £1bn is swallowed up in this relief road scheme.

M4 relief road could end up in courts, Labour AM says

By James Williams
BBC Wales political reporter

23 September 2017

The final decision on the M4 relief road could be open to a legal challenge, a Labour AM has said.

Lee Waters said an intervention by Future Generations Commissioner Sophie Howe was "very significant".

Ms Howe said the Welsh Government was misinterpreting its own legislation and she was "not ruling out" her own review but would wait for the ongoing public inquiry to end.

The government said it could not comment on the specifics.
"Following the inspector's recommendation a decision can be made on whether to proceed with construction of the M4 Project," a spokesman added.
The public inquiry began in February and is expected to finish at the end of the year.

The Labour-led Welsh Government, which has argued that a new road is justified and vital, is not bound by the inquiry's final decision.

A number of routes have been proposed but First Minister Carwyn Jones' favoured option is the so-called "black route", claiming after last year's assembly election "there doesn't seem to be an alternative."

The proposed £1.1bn route includes 15 miles of new motorway and a 1.5 mile bridge across the River Usk, as well as major remodelling of junctions 23 and 29 of the M4.

Mr Waters told the BBC's Sunday Politics Wales programme he believes "it's quite clear the government have made their mind up on this and they're doing what they've always done".

An opponent of a new road, Mr Waters added: "They are wedded to what's called a predict and provide approach to transport. The forecasts show that traffic's going to go up so they're building capacity to meet that future demand.

"That approach has been tried for 50 years and we know the result of it - traffic keeps going up and we spend more and more money on roads.
"This is a colossal amount of money at a time when our budgets are going down every year," he said, adding it would increase emissions and harm the environment.

Mr Waters believes "if there was a free vote across all the parties, the 'black route' would not get support but I doubt very much whether we're going to get to test that theory".

Welsh Labour ministers are not obliged to put the final decision to a specific vote in the assembly, with government sources arguing a commitment to deliver a "relief road for the M4" was included in the party's assembly manifesto.

But the decision would need to be agreed as part of any future budget.

Mr Waters also pointed to Ms Howe's claim that ministers could be setting a "dangerous precedent" in the way they have interpreted the Future Generations Act, which requires public bodies to take into account the economic, social, environmental and cultural impact of any policy decision.

"For the government's own commissioner to say to the planning inspector that in her view this goes against the act the government passed, they've interpreted their own law incorrectly, opening the government up to a judicial review.

"Who knows where that will end up? So, I don't think this is the end of the story," he added.

A new road is supported by CBI Wales, the South Wales Chamber of Commerce and the Welsh Conservatives.

Andrew RT Davies, the Welsh Tory leader, said a decision was needed to bring "an end to the traffic misery that blight's this part of Wales".

Plaid Cymru and UKIP backed a cheaper alternative known as the "blue route" in the assembly election but UKIP has since said it could back the "black route".

• Sunday Politics Wales is on BBC One Wales on 24 September at 11:00 BST

 

[Gareth Marston]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-41362776

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-wal...s-m4-relief-road-is-not-way-to-cut-congestion

Welsh Labour AM for Llanelli, Lee Waters, has spoken out against his own party's plans for the M4 relief road, to be aired in full on tomorrow mornings Sunday Politics Wales.
I agree fully with every word he says. It's just common sense. There won't be enough money to build the Metro public transport system that South Wales needs if over £1bn is swallowed up in this relief road scheme.

The pig headed arrogance of Cardiff Bay on the matter is staggering as Lee says if there was free vote in the Senedd it would never get through. That the road will induce new traffic problems elsewhere is bleeding obvious given all the evidence available spending the budget to make the problem worse rather than addressing it which the Metro will. No doubt we will get some form of half arsed "metro lite" which will be spun to hell pretending its world class if this road stupidity goes ahead.

Wales has enough resources to get a decent modern integrated public transport system albeit over time and in stages if its spend its transport budget wisely. It will never have the £ to build all the road schemes pined for. When will politicians learn that in a world saturated with road vehicles providing the odd link road, bypass and dual carriageway here and there is totally ineffective due to the sheer scale of the problem?

 

[Envoy]

Carwyn and Andrew are right to be in favour of the black route M4 running south of Newport. Those people who say do nothing or wish to have a cheapskate route are just prolonging the problem that is damaging to the economy of the whole of south Wales. Furthermore, the present overloaded, hilly and winding route is prone to accidents.

I am all for rail transport but the plain fact is that we also need good road transport. This section of M4 has to carry both the M4 traffic from southern England to south Wales as well as that which has come down the M50 & A449 from the Midlands. Throw in the fact that it also carries local traffic through this densely populated area and right at this location we have the choke point that is the tunnel at Newport.

The Conservatives had the black route (near enough) all planned out in the early 90’s but Rhodri Morgan came to poor and cancelled it saying it was not needed. Well, we can all see the result of that decision! Had the M4 been built in the 90’s, we would not have this debate today about funding for improving the railways in SE Wales.

We can be sure by not getting on and building the black route will also have a major impact on Cardiff Airport as it will be very difficult to entice passengers from nearby places in England to make the journey to Rhoose - especially as road links are so bad from the M4 to the Barry area. (They will get worse soon as the Welsh Government are allowing a business park to be built on the north side of J33 plus a park and ride - absolutely bonkers to jam up this strategic regional junction).

 

[Gareth Marston]

Carwyn and Andrew are right to be in favour of the black route M4 running south of Newport. Those people who say do nothing or wish to have a cheapskate route are just prolonging the problem that is damaging to the economy of the whole of south Wales. Furthermore, the present overloaded, hilly and winding route is prone to accidents.

I am all for rail transport but the plain fact is that we also need good road transport. This section of M4 has to carry both the M4 traffic from southern England to south Wales as well as that which has come down the M50 & A449 from the Midlands. Throw in the fact that it also carries local traffic through this densely populated area and right at this location we have the choke point that is the tunnel at Newport.

The Conservatives had the black route (near enough) all planned out in the early 90’s but Rhodri Morgan came to poor and cancelled it saying it was not needed. Well, we can all see the result of that decision! Had the M4 been built in the 90’s, we would not have this debate today about funding for improving the railways in SE Wales.

We can be sure by not getting on and building the black route will also have a major impact on Cardiff Airport as it will be very difficult to entice passengers from nearby places in England to make the journey to Rhoose - especially as road links are so bad from the M4 to the Barry area. (They will get worse soon as the Welsh Government are allowing a business park to be built on the north side of J33 plus a park and ride - absolutely bonkers to jam up this strategic regional junction).

So what happens when all the induced traffic from the new road and scrapping the Severn bridge tolls congeals the junctions to the east and west of Newport?

 

[Llanigraham]

What "induced" traffic?

Gareth, you continually criticise the project to by-pass the Brynglas Tunnels but haven't once come up with a workable alternative. Do you have one?

 

[gareth950]

Unfortunately Envoy, we do not live in a magical land of milk and honey. If £1.1 billion is spent on this relief road, the Metro will be lucky to get crumbs. History since the 1960s proves this time and time again. The road, freight and oil lobbies always get their way.

It's worth me quoting what Lee Waters has said in this short clip in full:

"When we're spending 1 billion pounds on a road, that means there's less money available to fund public transport to get people off the road, and instead it's creating a scheme that will generate more traffic. Already the freight transport association are calling for a fourth lane. The government are anticipating because the Severn bridge tolls are going to be abolished an increase of 20% traffic and we know that new roads create more traffic. It encourages people to make journeys by car that they otherwise wouldn't do. All the evidence shows that. The experience shows that. And it's going to happen again."

To anyone who supports the relief road, please explain how you can disagree with that?

Abolishing the Severn Bridge tolls will also affect public transport spending, as maintenance costs will now have to come out of general taxation.

When Carwyn Jones was interviewed on the Sunday Politics Wales after the report on the M4 was shown, his response was "something must be done" about the relief road. "The public inquiry will report by the end of the year, but something must be done. Doing nothing is not an option".

So even if the inquiry recommended doing nothing and spending £1.1 billion on a world class public transport Metro system for South Wales instead, Carwyn Jones and Ken Skates would still ignore the outcome of the inquiry and build the black route relief road anyway. So this public inquiry is a sham.

Why all the secrecy around the award of the new W&B franchise and why is the Welsh Govt so terrified of any scrutiny of the whole award process, that no details will be released until the deal is signed and sealed and cannot be changed? The relief road will suck up the Welsh Govt's infrastructure budget for at least 20 years and outside of the 'Core Valley lines', the Metro will be lucky to get new 3 car DMUs.

 

[gareth950]

What "induced" traffic?

Gareth, you continually criticise the project to by-pass the Brynglas Tunnels but haven't once come up with a workable alternative. Do you have one?

Invest heavily in public transport to get people off the roads, and if a 'relief road' absolutely has to be built, a route similar to the blue route. Not a route that will be the most ecologically and environmentally damaging road in Welsh history.

 

[158756]

The pig headed arrogance of Cardiff Bay on the matter is staggering as Lee says if there was free vote in the Senedd it would never get through. That the road will induce new traffic problems elsewhere is bleeding obvious given all the evidence available spending the budget to make the problem worse rather than addressing it which the Metro will. No doubt we will get some form of half arsed "metro lite" which will be spun to hell pretending its world class if this road stupidity goes ahead.

Wales has enough resources to get a decent modern integrated public transport system albeit over time and in stages if its spend its transport budget wisely. It will never have the £ to build all the road schemes pined for. When will politicians learn that in a world saturated with road vehicles providing the odd link road, bypass and dual carriageway here and there is totally ineffective due to the sheer scale of the problem?

What is the solution though? The identified problem is the M4 around Newport - the 'foot on the windpipe of the Welsh economy'. How does the South Wales Metro solve that? And nice as the thought might be, a network of lightly loaded trams trundling around the Valleys is unlikely to generate as much economic benefit as a massive increase in the capacity for people and goods to travel from South Wales to the rest of the country.

Alleviating the current bottleneck might produce another elsewhere, but more people will be able to use the road successfully than could before. By the continuation of that argument all roads should be put back to single track with passing places and no rail schemes should ever be built either - reopening to Ebbw Vale created a problem at Newport, up in the North of England the Ordsall Chord solves one problem and will create another, and so on with all the flat junctions in the area.

 

[The Ham]

Road freight manages around London where there is often long delays on the M25, especially around Dartford. How is this any different to South Wales? If anything I would suggest that the impacts in Wales are less.

If there is an increase in traffic of 20% over the bridges into Wales then chances are there'll be a reduction again to a point where it is self regulating. For instance my journey to work takes an hour regardless of if I drive (on a "good" day) or go by train, yet off peak driving takes 35 minutes. The result, I go by train. As do a LOT of other people. Leaving that the drive time stays broadly the same. All because the town I work in has a traffic problem.

Yes there are problems with whatever improvements you make to a network meaning that network will have another bottleneck elsewhere (rail or road networks). However a new motorway lane will allow for something like 12,000 vehicles a day, assuming 2 people per vehicle that's 24,000 people. You can get the same numbers into a line with 10 trains per hour with each train seating about 200 people (i.e add in the odd HST and that number of services per hour can go down).

Yes there's a need for more people to get past Newport, but it is likely that there's a greater demand for travel within Cardiff. As such where is best to spend the money? I would argue on good public transport as then it is more likely that your long distended travelers will also switch to other modes. Again take London as an example very few people would think of driving to a central London location.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Road freight manages around London where there is often long delays on the M25, especially around Dartford. How is this any different to South Wales? If anything I would suggest that the impacts in Wales are less.

If there is an increase in traffic of 20% over the bridges into Wales then chances are there'll be a reduction again to a point where it is self regulating. For instance my journey to work takes an hour regardless of if I drive (on a "good" day) or go by train, yet off peak driving takes 35 minutes. The result, I go by train. As do a LOT of other people. Leaving that the drive time stays broadly the same. All because the town I work in has a traffic problem.

Yes there are problems with whatever improvements you make to a network meaning that network will have another bottleneck elsewhere (rail or road networks). However a new motorway lane will allow for something like 12,000 vehicles a day, assuming 2 people per vehicle that's 24,000 people. You can get the same numbers into a line with 10 trains per hour with each train seating about 200 people (i.e add in the odd HST and that number of services per hour can go down).

Yes there's a need for more people to get past Newport, but it is likely that there's a greater demand for travel within Cardiff. As such where is best to spend the money? I would argue on good public transport as then it is more likely that your long distended travelers will also switch to other modes. Again take London as an example very few people would think of driving to a central London location.

My local problem is unique syndrome is a common theme in all calls for more road space because of traffic issues (we had this with the Newtown bypass in bucket loads) - there's 35 million road vehicles and countless 1000's of choke points on the road network nationally and not just around the Brynglas tunnels. The country lives with it. No country in the world has built its way out of road congestion issues yet some people vehemently believe that they can as they don't like the alternatives. We would have to divert a significant % of the national budget into addressing all the pinch points and demolish countryside, schools, houses, factory's etc we simply don't have a blank canvass nor the political will to attempt this. Individual schemes make a tiny difference in the scheme of things/ scale of problem that they are pointless at a national level.

 

[Gareth Marston]

What "induced" traffic?

Gareth, you continually criticise the project to by-pass the Brynglas Tunnels but haven't once come up with a workable alternative. Do you have one?

The phenomena of induced traffic was identified as early as the 1920's, essentially as others have said when road space is opened up traffic expands to fill it. New journeys are generated. Generally when vehicle ownership levels were low this was ignored or thought to be a jolly good thing. Then remember how almost as soon as the M25 opened in 1986 the complaints about congestion on it started?

If you want to read all about it then look at the official Government report from 1994 , the SACTRA report was expected to rubber stamp the Roads to prosperity programme but instead concluded that all these new roads would generate lots of new traffic causing lots of new problems. It caused shockwaves through DfT and the Treasury used it to reign in expenditure on roads. Roads to prosperity was quietly shelved however the politicians never learnt the lesson due to the immense problems the Major Government had on all fronts they were too pre occupied elsewhere.

With the Severn tolls abolished and this road in place a resident of Newports suburbs might have a slightly easier drive dropping on and off junctions past the Brynglas tunnels at non peak times however its to the west and east of the relief road that the real problems will manifest themselves. On the English side the M5/M4 Interchange and on the Welsh side the M4 /A470 Coryton Interchange will suffer most.

And with public transport starved of money to make traffic problems worse I would be thankful you live in rural Llanidloes where you can double park your car with immunity on Great Oak St and not in South Wales.

There is no easy choice world experience has shown you cant build your way out of traffic congestion the Welsh Government has no magic wand the rest of the world hasn't got. Your only going to have the perceived benefits of the open highway if you ration/limit road usage.

Live with it as an inevitable consequence of mass vehicle ownership and use and invest in alternative public transport so at least you can take the edge off the problem. A new road wont given you any competitive advantage with anywhere else not having a quality public transport system will disadvantage you.

 

[gareth950]

A recent article about how much more freight traffic will now be enticed to use the Severn Bridge following the scrapping of the tolls, with rail freight suffering as a result.
Of course, the Tories are only proposing scrapping the tolls because it's a populist vote winner and they know it will put even more pressure on the Welsh Govt to build a relief road. No other reasons. The bridges will still need to be maintained with money no doubt siphoned off from public transport spending.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/freight-clog-up-m4-after-13536859

Freight will clog up M4 after Severn Tolls are scrapped, experts warn

A rail freight terminal built at taxpayer's expense could be left idle.

By RHODRI CLARK
19:58, 27 AUG 2017

There are fears 700 extra lorries a week will clog up major routes in south Wales after the tolls on the Severn bridges are scrapped.

Experts fear that that freight will move away from rail service and onto the M4 when the tolls cease late next year.

They say that while a a rail freight terminal built with taxpayers’ money could become idle, there will be increased congestion around the notorious Brynglas Tunnels at Newport .

The £15m Euro freight terminal at Wentloog, Cardiff , was opened in March 2001 by Rhodri Morgan, then First Minister.

The aim was to reduce road traffic and boost the Welsh economy by plugging in to the Channel Tunnel and major ports.

The terminal now receives two trains of containerised goods daily. Between them the trains save an estimated five million lorry miles a year from some of Britain’s most congested roads.

However, the UK Government’s promised abolition of the Severn motorway tolls – currently £20 for lorries – by the end of next year will cut the cost of transporting goods by road.

This could result in freight being switched from trains to lorries, increasing the strain on the M4 west of the Severn Crossings.

One of the freight trains to Wentloog, from Southampton docks, is already reeling after the UK Government withdrew its grant funding last April.

The Mode Shift Revenue Support grant recognised the environmental and safety benefits of the containers being transported by rail instead of road. The other train to Wentloog carries Tesco goods from Northamptonshire.

“The removal next year of the £20 per lorry charge for crossing the Severn Crossing will be a further blow and will make it even more challenging for the rail service to compete with lorries,” said Philippa Edmunds, of the Campaign for Better Transport.

“It will be difficult for rail to continue to compete without some support to these rail services that are key to the Welsh economy and in removing lorries, not only from Welsh roads but from the busy road network in the West Midlands and radiating from Southampton.

“When it takes off those tolls, the government should give commensurate support to rail freight on the basis that it’s much safer, much less polluting and reduces congestion.”

The Wentloog terminal is operated by rail cargo specialist Freightliner, which partly funded its construction. Lindsay Durham, Freightliner’s head of rail strategy, said the company was concerned at the potential impact of the tolls’ abolition, which she said would cut about £200,000 a year from the cost of transporting the same number of containers on lorries instead of the current trains from Southampton to Wentloog.

“This will of course have an impact on rail’s competitive position,” she said.

“Freightliner will do everything it can to maintain rail services into Wentloog terminal, but the combined impact of the loss of Mode Shift Revenue Support grant in 2017 and the reduction to lorry costs to Wales from 2018 because of the toll abolition are not helpful in supporting this aim.”

The tolls’ abolition also jeopardised future growth at the terminal, which has always operated below its capacity. “It will make it harder for rail to compete with road for new flows,” she said.

Freightliner has asked the UK Government to reinstate the grant for the Southampton train.

In June a YouGov opinion poll, commissioned by the Campaign for Better Transport, revealed that 61% of those questioned wanted more freight transported by rail and 63% supported increased government funding to allow growth in rail freight. Only 3% opposed increased funding.

Ms Edmunds said that since 2011 fuel duty for lorry operators had been frozen but charges paid by freight train operators for use of the rail infrastructure had increased by more than 20%.

The UK Government’s Department for Transport has been asked to comment.

A Welsh Government spokeswoman said: “We recognise the numerous benefits of moving goods by rail and already provide a public subsidy for the Wales element of the rail freight movements. This is ultimately a matter for the UK Government, and we have been pressing them to invest towards enabling the efficient movement of goods by rail into Wales for the next railway control period.”

The next five-year control period starts in 2019.

 

[HSTEd]

£200,000 per year cut from the cost of road transport, with a £20 toll?

so.... ten thousand containers per year?

Is that it?

Two trains a day and they manage to move something like 30 boxes between them?
And they wonder why they are hopelessly uneconomic.

 

[Envoy]

Legal documentation has just been issued for development on land north of M4 J33 (NW Cardiff). Now, I always assumed that in the event that a new ‘metro’ railway was built through these new developments from the City Line at Fairwater out to Cregiau, that it would include this development. That being so, it would need to have a protected route - which for the most part it does following an old railway alignment. Presumably, in this area, it would have to have a new route passing along the northern boundary of the services before proceeding north to Cregiau following the alignment of the old twin track railway. NONE OF THIS DOCUMENTATION mentions this and no site has been set aside for a station to serve this new development.

Furthermore, a site for a Park & Ride has been set aside so that buses can take people to Cardiff city centre. This site would appear to be well away from where it would be possible to build a metro station at some point in the future. You would think that priority would be given locating and protecting a site for a future metro station and that the P&R for buses would be at such a site so that if the metro line were ever built, the buses could be withdrawn.

For those interested - click this link and ‘documents’ and scroll to the bottom to find 14 September 2017 - Section 106. (You will note that Cardiff Council always load their planning press notices sideways).(The link can take a few seconds to load. The relevant map is at the end of all the legal written stuff). http://planning.cardiff.gov.uk/online-applications/simpleSearchResults.do?action=firstPage

 

[Gareth Marston]

Its still secret squirrel time about the South Wales Metro but the Welsh Government has found £250 million for "road improvements" in Deeside.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-41403836

new £250m road to relieve congestion in Flintshire has been backed by the Welsh Government.

Economy Secretary Ken Skates told AMs on Tuesday that he was giving the green light to the red route - which will see the A548 upgraded and a new link built to connect it to the A55.

Our North Walian, Cheshire and Wirral contributors will be able to help but unless Ive imagined it the A548 is already a dual carriageway road that connects the A55 west of Connahs Quay with the A494 on the Welsh side of Wirral peninsular and motorists have had the choice of using it for 20 odd years? How does spending £250 million improving it help?

I used it loads to access the Deeside Industrial Estate in the past it was always an empty-ish quick road (apart from when shifts started/ended on the Deeside Estate factories).

 

[krus_aragon]

Our North Walian, Cheshire and Wirral contributors will be able to help but unless Ive imagined it the A548 is already a dual carriageway road that connects the A55 west of Connahs Quay with the A494 on the Welsh side of Wirral peninsular and motorists have had the choice of using it for 20 odd years? How does spending £250 million improving it help?

The A548 is currently a dual carriageway road that connects the A494 on the Wirral with Connah's Quay and Flint, continues along the coast road toward Mostyn and Prestatyn. It doesn't connect with the A55 at all.

If I wanted to use the A548 to cross the Dee, I'd have to leave the A55 at Junction 33, then either double-back along the A5119 and drive into Flint town centre, or go through Northop and along some B roads and country lanes (while skirting past Connah's Quay) to join the A548 near Deeside College. Neither of these are intuitive routes.

In reality, I've only driven over the A548 bridge once, in the reverse direction when returning from the Wirral. I was following my nose / the road signs as opposed to a pre-planned route, at around 4pm on a weekday. I found myself funnelled into driving toward Flint, and got caught in very heavy traffic from Oakenholt on into Flint. Soon I'd had enough of pootling along bumper-to-bumper, and having crawled through Flint town centre I took the A5119 to get back to the A55 as soon as possible. I've not been tempted to take that route again!

 

[Gareth Marston]

The A548 is currently a dual carriageway road that connects the A494 on the Wirral with Connah's Quay and Flint, continues along the coast road toward Mostyn and Prestatyn. It doesn't connect with the A55 at all.

If I wanted to use the A548 to cross the Dee, I'd have to leave the A55 at Junction 33, then either double-back along the A5119 and drive into Flint town centre, or go through Northop and along some B roads and country lanes (while skirting past Connah's Quay) to join the A548 near Deeside College. Neither of these are intuitive routes.

In reality, I've only driven over the A548 bridge once, in the reverse direction when returning from the Wirral. I was following my nose / the road signs as opposed to a pre-planned route, at around 4pm on a weekday. I found myself funnelled into driving toward Flint, and got caught in very heavy traffic from Oakenholt on into Flint. Soon I'd had enough of pootling along bumper-to-bumper, and having crawled through Flint town centre I took the A5119 to get back to the A55 as soon as possible. I've not been tempted to take that route again!

Sorry it does join some sort of dual road south of the Dee but only as far as Flint not connecting with the A55.

How many people from west of Holywell actually access the Deeside Estate on a daily basis and might be diverted from going down the A494 to cross over the Dee? In my experience around half if not more of the people working there come across the border from England.

 

[krus_aragon]

Sorry it does join some sort of dual road south of the Dee but only as far as Flint not connecting with the A55.

How many people from west of Holywell actually access the Deeside Estate on a daily basis and might be diverted from going down the A494 to cross over the Dee? In my experience around half if not more of the people working there come across the border from England.

More numerous are the people from west of Holywell heading toward the M53/M56. (Or so I assume.) At the moment, they all travel through Queensferry. If access to the A548 were straightforward, they'd be happy to avoid the 50mph speed limit on the A494.

 

[Gareth Marston]

More numerous are the people from west of Holywell heading toward the M53/M56. (Or so I assume.) At the moment, they all travel through Queensferry. If access to the A548 were straightforward, they'd be happy to avoid the 50mph speed limit on the A494.

So there's potentially c400K in total of population in North Wales west of Flint that might (1)benefit from improved road journey time making two particular sub sets of journeys to/from Deeside Industrial Estate/M53/M56 along the A55 and another c250K of population in Flintshire/Wrexham that might (2) benefit from a sub set of journeys to/from Deeside Industrial Estate

1- If new traffic is not induced onto the A55 Expressway worsening congestion on that and the A548/A494 junction on the Welsh part of Wirral doe snot become a new pinch point.
2- Assuming the A494 becomes less congested around the south bank of Deeside.

This gets £250 million. Whereas improved public transport aka the South Wales Metro that benefits an entire City Region of 1.1 million people who get world class public transport that can help reduce road congestion get.........????

 

[krus_aragon]

Yep. I think you may have missed out some other groups of road users (e.g. hauliers going to and from North Wales / Ireland), but fundamentally it suffers from all the same issues as the M4 Newport bypass.

 

[8H]

So there's potentially c400K in total of population in North Wales west of Flint that might (1)benefit from improved road journey time making two particular sub sets of journeys to/from Deeside Industrial Estate/M53/M56 along the A55 and another c250K of population in Flintshire/Wrexham that might (2) benefit from a sub set of journeys to/from Deeside Industrial Estate

1- If new traffic is not induced onto the A55 Expressway worsening congestion on that and the A548/A494 junction on the Welsh part of Wirral doe snot become a new pinch point.
2- Assuming the A494 becomes less congested around the south bank of Deeside.

This gets £250 million. Whereas improved public transport aka the South Wales Metro that benefits an entire City Region of 1.1 million people who get world class public transport that can help reduce road congestion get.........????

Yes indeed, it is crackers. Any traffic heading for the Wirral or Liverpool will then join the single carriage way link to Two Mills junction for West Wirral and onward by the Welsh Road to Hoooton for Birkenhead clogging their way onto these already congested routes also.

It seems that people will not accept the insanity of spending to create "induced traffic" despite decades of evidence that this happens. Also it make the air we breathe foul and potentially lethal too.

Meanwhile spending and planning on rail from North Wales to NW English conurbations with a timetable that would achieve modal shift on this axis struggles to reach even the beginnings of the iron grip of GRIP. Halton Curve is welcome but is another "plodding"route.

All the lorries from central and Eastern Europe that trundle into Deeside industrial estate day and night off the M6 are going to be stuck at Dover for days in future anyway But let's not get starte don that insanity too !!

 

[Gareth Marston]

Yes indeed, it is crackers. Any traffic heading for the Wirral or Liverpool will then join the single carriage way link to Two Mills junction for West Wirral and onward by the Welsh Road to Hoooton for Birkenhead clogging their way onto these already congested routes also.

It seems that people will not accept the insanity of spending to create "induced traffic" despite decades of evidence that this happens. Also it make the air we breathe foul and potentially lethal too.

Meanwhile spending and planning on rail from North Wales to NW English conurbations with a timetable that would achieve modal shift on this axis struggles to reach even the beginnings of the iron grip of GRIP. Halton Curve is welcome but is another "plodding"route.

All the lorries from central and Eastern Europe that trundle into Deeside industrial estate day and night off the M6 are going to be stuck at Dover for days in future anyway But let's not get starte don that insanity too !!

No doubt in some smoke filled room someone imagines upgrading all the roads in the UK simultaneously so as to overcome the perennial problem of inducing traffic onto the next pinch point caused by road upgrades. However unless they were Dumbledore's star pupil at Hogwarts that JK Rowling has never told us about I don't think that magic wand exists.

 

[Gareth Marston]

A recent article about how much more freight traffic will now be enticed to use the Severn Bridge following the scrapping of the tolls, with rail freight suffering as a result.
Of course, the Tories are only proposing scrapping the tolls because it's a populist vote winner and they know it will put even more pressure on the Welsh Govt to build a relief road. No other reasons. The bridges will still need to be maintained with money no doubt siphoned off from public transport spending.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/freight-clog-up-m4-after-13536859

Was In Cardiff at weekend, our taxi couldn't get near to Central/Queen St/Cathays because of half marathon road closures so he took us to Llandaff North. The driver was from Bishops Auckland and had lived in Cardiff many years he was fearful of the Severn Tolls being scrapped as it would just make congestion worse along the M4.

 

[Gareth Marston]

South Wales Metro being set up to fail says Labour AM

from http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-41497991

A Labour backbench AM has said he fears the Metro public transport project for South East Wales is "being set-up to fail".

Lee Waters, in a speech making the case against an M4 relief road in Newport, said the plans were being starved of UK government help and EU funds.

He questioned why a public transport system to tackle peak demand on the motorway was not being developed.

Economy Secretary Ken Skates said the M4 infrastructure needed an upgrade.

The Llanelli AM's debate in the assembly on Wednesday comes after the publication of the Welsh Government budget for 2018-19, which said the M4 relief road would be among the projects that could benefit from £375m of borrowing over three years.

Mr Waters, who has previously stated his opposition to the project, urged the Welsh Government not to reject the Future Generation Commissioner Sophie Howe's criticism of the scheme, saying: "If they fight her in the courts they risk undermining their very own landmark legislation".

Ms Howe argued Welsh ministers are misinterpreting the Future Generations Act in their case for a new motorway in Newport.

 

[gareth950]

South Wales Metro being set up to fail says Labour AM

from http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-41497991

A Labour backbench AM has said he fears the Metro public transport project for South East Wales is "being set-up to fail".

Lee Waters, in a speech making the case against an M4 relief road in Newport, said the plans were being starved of UK government help and EU funds.

He questioned why a public transport system to tackle peak demand on the motorway was not being developed.

Economy Secretary Ken Skates said the M4 infrastructure needed an upgrade.

The Llanelli AM's debate in the assembly on Wednesday comes after the publication of the Welsh Government budget for 2018-19, which said the M4 relief road would be among the projects that could benefit from £375m of borrowing over three years.

Mr Waters, who has previously stated his opposition to the project, urged the Welsh Government not to reject the Future Generation Commissioner Sophie Howe's criticism of the scheme, saying: "If they fight her in the courts they risk undermining their very own landmark legislation".

Ms Howe argued Welsh ministers are misinterpreting the Future Generations Act in their case for a new motorway in Newport.

So, the secrecy is because we will see a repeat of another 2003 style 15 year stitch up? Again?

Why can't the Welsh Govt just admit that everything that Lee Waters and previously Jenny Rathbone are saying is spot on? Lee Waters is right - the road lobby are ensuring they get their way at the expense of the environment and public transport - as they have done since the 1960s. The scrapping of the Severn Bridge tolls, the cancelling of electrification beyond Cardiff, the current political spat over the funding for the next franchise. Public transport in Wales will be screwed over for another 15 years. Again.