South Wales 'Metro' updates

[HSTEd]

I am not convinced that light rail conversion is worth the trouble.
Just electrify and stick Metro type all-axles-motored stock on it.
I know that 25kV Movia exists for example.

Those will take off like a scalded cat.
Although I think you would be better off ordering a mixed fleet of ~90m and ~135m sets and running everything fixed formation. Likely 5-car and 8-car if S stock is anything to go by.

 

[PHILIPE]

W&B (ATW) are in the same cleft stick that Northern was in before the recent franchise award.
There is no way, or will, to vary the expiring franchise agreement because it will cost either DfT or WG (or both) money which is not in their budgets.
There is also no agreement on the shape and size of the replacement franchise, or the split between Westminster and Cardiff.

You have seen the procurement exercise the WG has just started for the Metro and the franchise.
WG and DfT have to shake hands on some devolution deal before anything can happen.
October 2018 is the date for the new W&B franchise to start.
A refurbishment deal (for DDA compliance) is about all we can expect before then.

Yes that's correct, but the unfortunate people in this saga are the passengers who are paying high fares to travel, at times, in cattle truck conditions due, in part, to the the franchising bureaucracy. They don't deserve it.

 

[gareth950]

Deleted

 

[Solaris]

Procurement for W&B franchise - inc SW Metro - already underway. Overwhelmingly likely that valley lines will be carved out of NR network ....

 

[gareth950]

Procurement for W&B franchise - inc SW Metro - already underway. Overwhelmingly likely that valley lines will be carved out of NR network and converted to LR....

And that will be great, as long as they don't stop north of Queen St and include the lines to Penarth, Barry, Bridgend via the Vale of Glamorgan, and the City Line to Radyr. At the last time of looking, these lines weren't included as part of the 'Core' Valley Lines light rail conversion proposals, which is madness as these routes aren't substantial enough to form a separate stand alone route network.

 

[WatcherZero]

Welsh Government has apparently sent an addendum to Metro bidders with some new rolling stock requirements.

"High quality" rolling stock including passenger information and adequate space to store luggage and bicycles

Trains which are accessible by disabled people and those with mobility problems

Increased capacity to cope with a projected rise in passengers, meaning even on the busiest services, people will not have to stand for more than 20 minutes

In areas covered by the Metro, rolling stock which allows rapid boarding

Phasing out of diesel-only traction engines on services running north of Cardiff Queen Street and on the Cardiff Bay line

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-37926425

 

[Gareth Marston]

Welsh Government has apparently sent an addendum to Metro bidders with some new rolling stock requirements.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-37926425

Whoops we forgot to mention rolling stock in our spec first time round, it hardly fills you with confidence about WG abilities does it? What else have they forgotten?

 

[J-2739]

They call it a metro and yet still dwell on 'nobody standing for more than 20 minutes...

 

[gareth950]

Whoops we forgot to mention rolling stock in our spec first time round, it hardly fills you with confidence about WG abilities does it? What else have they forgotten?

Didn't you know? The Welsh Govt wasn't specifying anything for this franchise - it was leaving it to the 'industry' to come up with their own specs and what rolling stock they want to use, as they are the 'experts'. :roll:
Or maybe the WG has realised that if it was left up to the TOCs to decide on rolling stock, refurbished e-Pacers would still be in use in Wales in 15 years time.

Welsh Government has apparently sent an addendum to Metro bidders with some new rolling stock requirements.

Also in the article:

In the meantime, the minister [Ken Skates] also said he was working with current operator Arriva Trains Wales to increase capacity on busy services.

Has the news about GW electrification, and the subsequent knock-on effect that this will have on diesel cascades, not reached the WG yet? There's nothing available!, unless the WG gives finance to Vivarail for a mass D-trains order now.

Phasing out of diesel-only traction engines on services running north of Cardiff Queen Street and on the Cardiff Bay line

Why only north of Queen St? The Valleys network doesn't stop there and runs to Central, on to Barry, Penarth and the Vale! I take this to back up my case that existing Valleys network is going to be split up at Central or Queen St.
How will that work? Where is the extra platform space needed going to come from?

 

[Lurpi]

I wonder what specifications, if any, the Welsh Government has made about infrastructure works in the tender documents and how it expects to be able to contract with the successful bidder for on-network works when it has no authority to carry out any works on the national rail network. Never mind whether they can afford to procure such works...

If anyone cares to tell me how the WG thinks it can procure a contract in an area where it does not have competence, feel free.

 

[HSTEd]

Well as to not having any authority to carry out works on the national rail network...
Can you compulsarily purchase property belonging to an Arms Length Public Body?

 

[krus_aragon]

Why only north of Queen St? The Valleys network doesn't stop there and runs to Central, on to Barry, Penarth and the Vale! I take this to back up my case that existing Valleys network is going to be split up at Central or Queen St.
How will that work? Where is the extra platform space needed going to come from?

Because "South of Queen St" is mainly Cardiff Central and the Vale of Glamorgan route, which are to be paid for as past of the GW electrification project. Granted, that's being deferred for longer and longer, but the alternative is the WG suddenly deciding that they'll pay for that bit, after all.

 

[125Forever]

No mention of the line to Beddau.

I guess that crossing by Talbot Green is there for nothing then?

 

[anthony263]

Well according to the latest issue of Rail magazine the treasury will guarantee funding for welsh electrification if eu money is withdrawn.

The Beddau branch is a missing link that needs to be re instated whenever funding is available. Even a regular 30 minutely rail service to Cardiff Central would bring a serious boost to the area. The 400 bus from Gwaunmiskin t Cardiff carries full and standing loads during the peaks even running at a 15 minutely frequency. Off peak it carries a very healthly load with a 30 minutely interval so there is demand there to be tapped. Not only that you only have to see the amount of traffic which travels from the A470 up Power stn hill to tonteg and Llantwit Fadre to see people will look at alternatives

 

[Lurpi]

Well as to not having any authority to carry out works on the national rail network...
Can you compulsarily purchase property belonging to an Arms Length Public Body?

No, the Welsh govt cannot compulsorily purchase bits of the rail network. There is no getting around the fact that they are not, in law, the nominated undertaker of works on the network. That is Network Rail, unless and until the Westminster government decides otherwise.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

No, the Welsh govt cannot compulsorily purchase bits of the rail network. There is no getting around the fact that they are not, in law, the nominated undertaker of works on the network. That is Network Rail, unless and until the Westminster government decides otherwise.

The experience of the Ebbw Vale branch upgrade for passenger use is salutary.
The WG/LAs did the work themselves, after getting very high estimates from Network Rail.
So NR did allow the WG to manage the work (the contractor was Amey, who are involved in bidding for the new franchise).
Although NR did eventually take over the line, there was a hiatus while they checked the line for standards and made some necessary changes.

On Valleys electrification, the UK government has said it will provide any funding that would have come from the EU before 2020 (though that might not be much).
Separately, the UK government has agreed a project contribution of £150m.
The WG is responsible for finding the rest. It isn't a blank cheque.
All this may well be overtaken by a new devolution deal, covering more than the railways.

 

[gareth950]

There are a couple of interesting articles in the current issue of RAIL magazine about the Metro and the next Wales and Borders franchise. It says that Network Rail is preparing to transfer responsibility for the Valley lines network to the Welsh Govt next year, whether that's through the WG owning the network outright or leasing it from NR.

It also points out that the remaining coal trains on the valleys are a sticking point when it comes to deciding whether to convert the valleys north of Queen St to light rail. Without the coal trains a purely light rail system could be built. St Athan coal power station in the Vale is already part time and should be closed fully by the mid-2020s, so that shouldn't influence the decision on whether to convert to light rail.
Trade unions are also cited as a barrier to conversion. The Unions will certainly be a barrier if a driverless DLR style system is proposed! (I'm NOT anti-union by the way)

It also states that Cardiff Central 'could lose it's services to the Valley lines if they are converted to light rail', which presumbly means that services from the Valleys will terminate at Queen street and maybe the Bay, so hopefully what will still presumbly be heavy rail services from Barry, Penarth and the Vale will connect in and out of Queen St? What's been the point in all of the signalling and track upgrade work recently between Central and Queen St otherwise?

However, there's still an awful lot more questions than answers concerning the future of the railways in Wales.

 

[WelshBluebird]

It also states that Cardiff Central 'could lose it's services to the Valley lines if they are converted to light rail', which presumbly means that services from the Valleys will terminate at Queen street and maybe the Bay, so hopefully what will still presumbly be heavy rail services from Barry, Penarth and the Vale will connect in and out of Queen St? What's been the point in all of the signalling and track upgrade work recently between Central and Queen St otherwise?

Not sure who has come up with that idea but I don't think I've heard something so ludicrous in quite a while. That would not go down well at all in and around South Wales! The only way I can see that being at all acceptable is if the frequency improvements from are massive.

 

[Envoy]

I wonder how much money would have been wasted on the valley lines re-signalling if they decide to use trams?

The idea of not having through trains from the valleys down to Barry / Cardiff Airport & Llantwit Major is quite frankly bonkers. Whilst the vast bulk of passengers use Central & Queen Street, a substantial number also use the present trains for cross region journeys such as Penarth to Caerphilly. In summer, vast numbers of people come down from the valleys to Barry Island. Can you imagine if they all have to disembark in Cardiff from trams in order to get on trains to the coast?

The Vale of Glamorgan Coast Line is the main diversion route when the main line between Cardiff & Bridgend is closed. When the Cardiff to Swansea leg is electrified, presumably the GWR will wish to remove the diesel engines from the bi-modes to reduce weight - or they might like to get them switched elsewhere and replace with all electric as per the original plan. Therefore, it would be beneficial for the VOG coast line to be 25Kv - along with all the other valley lines.

Cardiff does not need trams coming off the rail network onto the streets as the stations are all an easy walk from the central areas. Keep the present system but get it electrified would surely be the best solution to SE Wales’ transport issues.

 

[gareth950]

Not sure who has come up with that idea but I don't think I've heard something so ludicrous in quite a while. That would not go down well at all in and around South Wales! The only way I can see that being at all acceptable is if the frequency improvements from are massive.

I agree it's madness but that's the way the plans are going. The aim for frequency improvements are only modest - up from half hourly to the heads of the valleys at the moment to every 15 minutes. Obviously Sunday services should get massive improvements on the 2 hourly frequencies there are now.

 

[Solaris]

conversion north of QS is very sensible and the only way to affordably increase frequencies across the network -

 

[WelshBluebird]

I agree it's madness but that's the way the plans are going. The aim for frequency improvements are only modest - up from half hourly to the heads of the valleys at the moment to every 15 minutes. Obviously Sunday services should get massive improvements on the 2 hourly frequencies there are now.

In terms of the Sunday services, there is nothing stopping that improving now is it? Apart from drivers / staff etc.

LR conversion north of QS is very sensible and the only way to affordably increase frequencies across the network - LR also makes network extensions possible - not just in Cardiff but elsewhere. This has been on the cards for a while and pretty clear from WG Metro docs on its website. There are some interchange penalties (small when compared to other benefits) but am sure these can be addressed in later phases.....

Try tell that to those who travel from the valleys through Central to places south, east or west of Cardiff! If you just need to make one change at QS, then ok I can see that not being too bad. But take for example a journey from Pontypridd to Newport. Currently one change at Central with the entire journey taking less than an hour. That would become two changes (QS and Central) and probably a longer journey time too. How on earth is that sensible? If you are going to go light rail on this, then it needs to continue through to central (be it along existing lines or even on street running).

 

[wfrank]

Won't trams & light rail be ruled out in the valleys & elsewhere if Croydon leads to all sorts of expensive high tech speed controls on trams & tracks? Will be as expensive as heavy rail, so what is the point.

 

[Solaris]

Maybe the LR can go

 

[gareth950]

Maybe the LR can go into Central....? No reason why it can't and terminate there

Apart from lack of platform space? There are only 3 dedicated platforms for the valleys at Central compared to 5 at Queen St. So it will be either 2 platforms for Vale and City Line services and 1 for the LR valleys services or vice versa.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Won't trams & light rail be ruled out in the valleys & elsewhere if Croydon leads to all sorts of expensive high tech speed controls on trams & tracks? Will be as expensive as heavy rail, so what is the point.

It wouldn't be as expensive as heavy rail. Some kind of overspeed prevention balise would not be an expensive solution at all. Even full-on TPWS or similar would not make all the other aspects of trams more expensive than heavy rail.

 

[Hwnt52]

The valley lines trains at present do a pretty good job of getting thousands of people into Cardiff each day. There are issues of course – overcrowding in the peak and the age of the trains in particular. Electrification should allow longer and quicker trains and improve the commuting experience. The idea of replacing heavy rail with metrolink style trams fills me with dread. Rhymney for example is 24 miles from Cardiff Central which is approximately twice the distance of Bury or Altringham from Manchester City Centre. In addition it is 900 feet above sea level meaning severe gradients all along the line. The idea of cramming in to a two-car tram for a stop-start journey home in the winter which would undoubtedly take far longer than a heavy rail EMU fills me with horror. I might add that I actually live along the Rhymney Valley line and use the train whenever possible to travel into the city.

 

[Solaris]

The valley lines trains at present do a pretty good job of getting thousands of people into Cardiff each day. There are issues of course – overcrowding in the peak and the age of the trains in particular. Electrification should allow longer and quicker trains and improve the commuting experience. The idea of replacing heavy rail with metrolink style trams fills me with dread. Rhymney for example is 24 miles from Cardiff Central which is approximately twice the distance of Bury or Altringham from Manchester City Centre. In addition it is 900 feet above sea level meaning severe gradients all along the line. The idea of cramming in to a two-car tram for a stop-start journey home in the winter which would undoubtedly take far longer than a heavy rail EMU fills me with horror. I might add that I actually live along the Rhymney Valley line and use the train whenever possible to travel into the city.

....that just are not possible with HR on that network

 

[Gareth Marston]

LRVs likely to offer faster and more frequent services (and more capacity) that just are not possible with HR on that network

But 25 miles out? Merthyr Tydfil, Aberdare and Treherbet are all around that distance too. My experience of using them in Manchester and Nottingham suggests there OK for 20-25 minute max journeys not 45-55 to the Heads of the Valleys towns.

 

[Dai Corner]

I'm not familiar with modern trams (or vintage ones, come to that!)

How does the passenger environment compare with Pacers, 150's or 30 year old EMUs?