South Wales electrification

[swt_passenger]

No thats a summary, the actual HLOS is embargoed until 10:30 after the PM and deputy PM give their speech.

No, the link is to the 20 page HLOS. It was live at 0800.

3. This Railways Act 2005 Statement fulfils the requirements of UK legislation1 by setting out for the Office of Rail Regulation (ORR) the information about:
o what the Secretary of State wants to be achieved by railway activities during the review period covering 1 April 2014 to 31 March 20192 (the High Level Output Specification or HLOS); and
o the public funds that are or are likely to be available to secure delivery (the Statement of Funds Available or SoFA).

No way is it a summary.

 

[Rhydgaled]

A nice lot of electrification for south Wales there. One ommision however seems to be the freight-only bits. In particular, I think (not too sure on this one though) the section beyond Aberdare is only used by trains to a point on the Vale Of Glam. line, so would otherwise be under the new wires all the way. However, there's no wires to Cheltenham so it looks like they haven't given up trying to force the train WNXX calls the 'poo tube' on us.

 

[Gwenllian2001]

A nice lot of electrification for south Wales there. One ommision however seems to be the freight-only bits. In particular, I think (not too sure on this one though) the section beyond Aberdare is only used by trains to a point on the Vale Of Glam. line, so would otherwise be under the new wires all the way. However, there's no wires to Cheltenham so it looks like they haven't given up trying to force the train WNXX calls the 'poo tube' on us.

The section to Hirwaun, beyond Aberdare, is supposed to be re-opening for passengers so I assume that this will be wired.

 

[Nevasleep]

What trains are they likely to have?

 

[Chris125]

What trains are they likely to have?

In South Wales? As well as IEP, the sensible money would surely go on cascaded 315's and 319's.

Chris

 

[ChiefPlanner]

In South Wales? As well as IEP, the sensible money would surely go on cascaded 315's and 319's.

Chris

Or something similar , for now. A starter pack - like 308 sets on Leeds NW many years ago.

No one is going to pay to wire beyond Aberdare for a couple of short term coal trains ......(or into Aberthaw PS)

Being quite close to this , I am delighted with the extent of commitment today. Excellent news all round.

 

[tbtc]

Or something similar , for now. A starter pack - like 308 sets on Leeds NW many years ago.

No one is going to pay to wire beyond Aberdare for a couple of short term coal trains ......(or into Aberthaw PS)

Being quite close to this , I am delighted with the extent of commitment today. Excellent news all round.

That's it - get some EMUs in - any old EMU is still a step up from a Pacer - see how a cascaded three coach EMU suits demand then consider new trains/ longer trains later (like happened on the Shipley lines).

Please save me from the likely complaints about "cast off" stock that we are bound to get!

Impressive commitment today - it's really going to be a shot in the arm for the railway.

 

[Gwenllian2001]

Or something similar , for now. A starter pack - like 308 sets on Leeds NW many years ago.

No one is going to pay to wire beyond Aberdare for a couple of short term coal trains ......(or into Aberthaw PS)

Being quite close to this , I am delighted with the extent of commitment today. Excellent news all round.

You seem to have forgotten the planned extension of services to Hirwaun.

 

[Bald Rick]

You seem to have forgotten the planned extension of services to Hirwaun.

Trust me he hasn't forgotten. Just it won't happen for a long time.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Trust me he hasn't forgotten. Just it won't happen for a long time.

There was no mention of it in the current Welsh Governments National Infrastructure Plan.

 

[Rhydgaled]

That's it - get some EMUs in - any old EMU is still a step up from a Pacer - see how a cascaded three coach EMU suits demand then consider new trains/ longer trains later (like happened on the Shipley lines).

Please save me from the likely complaints about "cast off" stock that we are bound to get!

Cascaded 3-car 150/2 lookalike EMUs (if any such thing exists) would be a good start, better than Pacers surely, though something like 3-car 377s would be even better.

 

[sprinterguy]

Cascaded 3-car 150/2 lookalike EMUs (if any such thing exists)

Class 318s. Exactly the same bodyshell and front end as a 150/2: http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=cl...w=180&start=0&ndsp=18&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0,i:76
Though unfortunately they have now all had their corridor connections plated over during a recent refurbishment.

So a class 317/2 (Whatever sub-class they have become these days - Class 317/6 I think) with a carriage removed in that case.

 

[dalmahoyhill]

does extending the electrification to swansea mean IEP hybrid will be canned (fingers crossed!)

 

[Gwenllian2001]

There was no mention of it in the current Welsh Governments National Infrastructure Plan.

See this: http://www.networkrailmediacentre.c...ENS-FOR-BUSINESS-1924/SearchCategoryID-7.aspx

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Trust me he hasn't forgotten. Just it won't happen for a long time.

Hirwaun is not committed as yet , and in any case it is a short extension to the existing route - (and probably best done when the present "coaling" arrangements are ended. The branch was "network changed" to allow some changes in line speeds etc due to ballast contamination and slurry !!!!) - not compatible with electric train operation.

Of course. A visionary would rebuild the route to Neath !

315 / 319 etc could be reduced to 3 cars to give better traction and a better fit with the 3 /6 car infrastructure - and please , no grief on second hand trains , a look at Southerns 313 sets show what can be done to old trains - an Electrostar interior to a "heritage" ex BR Derby interior.!!!!

 

[sprinterguy]

does extending the electrification to swansea mean IEP hybrid will be canned (fingers crossed!)

There's still a number of other Great Western services (Cheltenham, Worcester, etc) that will have a need for Bi-mode IEPs in the face of the newly announced electrification proposals.

 

[Gwenllian2001]

Hirwaun is not committed as yet , and in any case it is a short extension to the existing route - (and probably best done when the present "coaling" arrangements are ended. The branch was "network changed" to allow some changes in line speeds etc due to ballast contamination and slurry !!!!) - not compatible with electric train operation.

Of course. A visionary would rebuild the route to Neath !

Yes, I am aware of the problems but it would be a pity if it wasn't done to coincide with electrification, after all we're only talking of about three and a half miles of existing railway. When the wiring gangs have completed their work to Aberdare and moved on, it won't be easy to get them back for such a small job.

It wouldn't take much to rebuild to Neath, most of it is still there and in use but the problem lies in what to do once you have got there. Neath, of course, has its attractions as a shopping destination but the real magnet for commercial and business and employment opportunities has to be Swansea. Unfortunately redevelopement has obliterated the former connections with the SW Main Line and I doubt that the walk from Riverside to Neath (General) would be attractive enough to make it viable.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Yes, I am aware of the problems but it would be a pity if it wasn't done to coincide with electrification, after all we're only talking of about three and a half miles of existing railway. When the wiring gangs have completed their work to Aberdare and moved on, it won't be easy to get them back for such a small job.

It wouldn't take much to rebuild to Neath, most of it is still there and in use but the problem lies in what to do once you have got there. Neath, of course, has its attractions as a shopping destination but the real magnet for commercial and business and employment opportunities has to be Swansea. Unfortunately redevelopement has obliterated the former connections with the SW Main Line and I doubt that the walk from Riverside to Neath (General) would be attractive enough to make it viable.

Quite right - the connectivity is Swansea ! - however in the long term it might be possible and desirable , especially with the relentless growth of population , as announced in the census statistics yesterday. More promising in my opnion than say the Borders link in Scotland - property can always be acquired if the will and need is there.

 

[gwr4090]

There's still a number of other Great Western services (Cheltenham, Worcester, etc) that will have a need for Bi-mode IEPs in the face of the newly announced electrification proposals.

The original GWML allocation was something like 314 vehicles formed as:
•11 8-car electric sets
•12 8-car bi-mode sets
•26 5-car bi-mode sets
Total 49 sets of which 38 are bi-mode. So 222 out of the 314 vehicles ie (about 70%) would be bi-mode.

The expected service pattern is:
4 per hour to Bristol, with some extending to Weston/Taunton
1 per hour to Swansea
1 per hour to Cardiff, with some extended to Swansea
1 per hour to Cheltenham
1 per hour to Worcester, with a few extended to Hereford
1 per hour to Westbury or Exeter
1 per day to Carmarthen
1 per day to Paignton

Unfortunately I don't think there has been any disclosure of which type of sets were to be used where, nor is it clear how many services would use 2x 5car units - probably not so many as they would be quite long ! HSTs will continue on Plymouth and Penzance services.

Now that Swansea is to be electrified, I speculate that the 8-car bi-mode sets might become 8-car electrics. If this is correct then the no of bimode vehicles would fall from 222 to 126 (ie about 40% of the total).

Or does anyone know better ?

David

 

[swt_passenger]

Or does anyone know better ?

The person finalising the GW ITT probably knows. Wait until next week/whenever...

 

[sprinterguy]

Now that Swansea is to be electrified, I speculate that the 8-car bi-mode sets might become 8-car electrics.

I am speculating the same thing. Note that the GWML IEP numbers, which you have recalled correctly, are stated as being the number of IEP "diagrams" rather than expressly stating the total fleet size. Although of course the proportion of electric to Bi-mode trains would be essentially the same even if there are a couple of maintenance spare to additionally consider.

 

[RP]

What about the wiring of the relief lines between Severn Tunnel Junction and Cardiff? Do they stand a better chance now? The 'Electric Spine' seems to be about freight, so could we see a change of heart in South Wales too?

 

[Gareth Marston]

See this: http://www.networkrailmediacentre.c...ENS-FOR-BUSINESS-1924/SearchCategoryID-7.aspx

yeah that was Nov 11 and the WG announced its revised Wales National Infrastructure Plan in April this year. Beyond what was announced from London and already committed Wales stuff like Gowerton and Wrexhm/Chester re-doublng theirs no commitment at all to do anything else.

ERDF (Europe) money is for roads according to WG.

 

[tbtc]

The expected service pattern is:
2 per hour to Swansea
2 per hour to Cardiff

I presume that you are talking about two trains an hour from London to South Wales, not two Swansea (via Cardiff) plus two Cardiff services?

 

[gwr4090]

What about the wiring of the relief lines between Severn Tunnel Junction and Cardiff? Do they stand a better chance now? The 'Electric Spine' seems to be about freight, so could we see a change of heart in South Wales too?

Elsewhere it is stated that the relief lines STJ to Cardiff will now be wired.

David

 

[RP]

Elsewhere it is stated that the relief lines STJ to Cardiff will now be wired.

David

Thanks for the clarification.

Elsewhere, as mentioned in this or other threads, there are plans to extend the Aberdare line to Hirwaun and the Ebbw Vale line to Ebbw Vale Town. Capacity increases are planned for the Maesteg line and Ebbw Vale lines plus the resumption of services to Newport as part of this. It would be hugely beneficial if this work was completed before electrification of these lines to avoid even higher costs than those already proposed.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Thanks for the clarification.

Elsewhere, as mentioned in this or other threads, there are plans to extend the Aberdare line to Hirwaun and the Ebbw Vale line to Ebbw Vale Town. Capacity increases are planned for the Maesteg line and Ebbw Vale lines plus the resumption of services to Newport as part of this. It would be hugely beneficial if this work was completed before electrification of these lines to avoid even higher costs than those already proposed.

you'll have to persuade WG to change its plans and cancel the dualling of the A465 as there no other way its going to be capitalized in time.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Of course. A visionary would rebuild the route to Neath!

Yes, I am aware of the problems but it would be a pity if it wasn't done to coincide with electrification, after all we're only talking of about three and a half miles of existing railway. When the wiring gangs have completed their work to Aberdare and moved on, it won't be easy to get them back for such a small job.

It wouldn't take much to rebuild to Neath, most of it is still there and in use but the problem lies in what to do once you have got there. Neath, of course, has its attractions as a shopping destination but the real magnet for commercial and business and employment opportunities has to be Swansea. Unfortunately redevelopement has obliterated the former connections with the SW Main Line and I doubt that the walk from Riverside to Neath (General) would be attractive enough to make it viable.

A line exists (freight-only) from Swansea Docks most of the way to Glyn-Neath. Linking up from Aberdare to Swansea Docks would not require much re-instatment of lines where all the track has been lifted. The only problem is my proposed Swansea Docks station would probably be quite a way out of the centre. Re-instating that link is part of my 'Swansea ValleyLines' scheme, making use of a collection of frieght-only lines, although most of my ideas in that have been critisised as too indirect to compete with the roads. Another part of that would be a tram from Swansea Docks (the hub of the Swansea ValleyLines) to Mumbles via Swansea High Street station.

Class 318s. Exactly the same bodyshell and front end as a 150/2: http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=cl...w=180&start=0&ndsp=18&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0,i:76
Though unfortunately they have now all had their corridor connections plated over during a recent refurbishment.

What on earth posessed them to do that?!?!?!

There's still a number of other Great Western services (Cheltenham, Worcester, etc) that will have a need for Bi-mode IEPs in the face of the newly announced electrification proposals.

They will have a need of diesel traction yes, but there are alternatives to bi-mode IEP. Loco-haulage from Swindon for Cheltenham, from Swansea for Carmarthen, casscaded bi-mode-ified 22xs working PAD-Worcester and PAD - Westbury services and using 180s and IC125s on anything to Taunton and beyond (perhaps IC125s on Hereford services too) being one option.

 

[Bald Rick]

Thanks for the clarification.

Elsewhere, as mentioned in this or other threads, there are plans to extend the Aberdare line to Hirwaun and the Ebbw Vale line to Ebbw Vale Town. Capacity increases are planned for the Maesteg line and Ebbw Vale lines plus the resumption of services to Newport as part of this. It would be hugely beneficial if this work was completed before electrification of these lines to avoid even higher costs than those already proposed.

It is a lot easier to electrify a line when it is being built, because you don't have to use all the rail borne kit to do it. So the economies of scale in combining it with the other work in south Wales are relatively small. It would be a bit like one of the regular discussions with Mrs Bald Rick - "look I saved £20 on all these shoes in the sale" Me - "yes but you spent £300 we haven't got"

 

[jopsuk]

What on earth posessed them to do that?!?!?!.

Not quite sure- though the rest of the fleet that they had at the time (314, 320 and 334) are all without gangways. But then the new 380s have gangways.