South Ruislip - Oyster advice please

[Old Yard Dog]

I intend to travel by tube to South Ruislip from somewhere in West London (probably Richmond) in order to catch the parliamentary Chiltern train to Paddington.

Do I need to touch out at South Ruislip and then touch in again? And, if so, is there a minimum period of time which has to elapse before I can do so? I doubt if I will do the whole journey in 110 minutes.

Or would I be better advised to use my second Oyster card for the South Ruislip - Paddington leg - or buy a paper ticket on my senior citizens card?

I have often wondered how Oyster copes with track bashers who make immediate returns and/or very indirect journeys.

 

[GW43125]

I intend to travel by tube to South Ruislip from somewhere in West London (probably Richmond) in order to catch the parliamentary Chiltern train to Paddington.

Do I need to touch out at South Ruislip and then touch in again? And, if so, is there a minimum period of time which has to elapse before I can do so? I doubt if I will do the whole journey in 110 minutes.

Or would I be better advised to use my second Oyster card for the South Ruislip - Paddington leg - or buy a paper ticket on my senior citizens card?

I have often wondered how Oyster copes with track bashers who make immediate returns and/or very indirect journeys.

On my oyster, I find it has a habit of charging a max fare after a certain length of time, though |I find it unpredictable.

 

[Tetchytyke]

If you exceed the maximum journey time then you'll be charged two maximum fares, and the maximum journey time depends on the journey you are making.

http://www.oyster-rail.org.uk/maximum-journey-times/

If you are doing a lot of track bashing then a paper travelcard will be much more convenient for you, and (assuming you don't have Freedom Pass, etc) won't be a great deal more expensive (30p on a Z1-6 off-peak).

If it's a standalone validator then you need to leave it 15 minutes between touches, although I seem to remember that touching on a bus can help with this.

 

[Joe Paxton]

If it's a standalone validator then you need to leave it 15 minutes between touches, although I seem to remember that touching on a bus can help with this.

Re the 15 minutes bit w.r.t. standalone validators, I'm not sure that is the case.

Regardless your general advice about the paper Day Travelcard is sound.

(For what it's worth, at South Ruislip there are ticket gates, so it's easy enough to exit and then re-enter the station - which is certainly what one should do in this particular case if using Oyster. Certainly if one has a choice of ticket gates or a standalone validator in such a scenario, always choose the ticket gates - they provide a definitive exit or entrance.)

 

[Tetchytyke]

For what it's worth, at South Ruislip there are ticket gates

Ah, in that case it solves the Oyster issue- you leave and re-enter and you have two separate journeys.

For 30p I'd go for the paper ticket if I was gricing, though. I've been done before with OSIs joining journeys together that I thought were separate.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Ah, in that case it solves the Oyster issue- you leave and re-enter and you have two separate journeys.

For 30p I'd go for the paper ticket if I was gricing, though. I've been done before with OSIs joining journeys together that I thought were separate.

As you hint at in your earlier post, a bus journey (i.e. touching in on a bus) does break any OSI when using Oyster. In general, exiting and then re-entering the same station shouldn't lead to OSI issues.

I agree that the paper Travelcard is the easiest and safest choice.

 

[abn444]

As you hint at in your earlier post, a bus journey (i.e. touching in on a bus) does break any OSI when using Oyster. In general, exiting and then re-entering the same station shouldn't lead to OSI issues.

I'm not so sure, from what I remember there is still a (fairly short) amount of time between touching out and touching back in again before it considers it as two separate journeys even at the same station. I can't remember how long it is though and it could just be certain stations.

 

[swt class 450]

The paper Z1 to Z6 Day Travelcard for £12.30 - http://www.brfares.com/#expert?orig=1072&dest=0035 - is indeed probably the best option for you as it avoids having to touch in or out if you are not leaving stations. If you are making other journeys around Greater London in the same day than it will probably be worth it.

 

[Joe Paxton]

I'm not so sure, from what I remember there is still a (fairly short) amount of time between touching out and touching back in again before it considers it as two separate journeys even at the same station. I can't remember how long it is though and it could just be certain stations.

Or is this just where there are standalone validators?

I'm pretty sure that at a station with ticket gates, exiting and then re-entering the same station through the ticket gates ends one journey and then starts a new distinct journey.

I will say I'm not quite sure what the situation is at those stations which have OSIs between different gatelines at different entrances to the same station complex, e.g. Waterloo LU, King's Cross St Pancras LU, Canary Wharf LU, Bank LU. (Looking at the OSI list here.)

 

[Joe Paxton]

The paper Z1 to Z6 Day Travelcard for £12.30 - http://www.brfares.com/#expert?orig=1072&dest=0035 - is indeed probably the best option for you as it avoids having to touch in or out if you are not leaving stations. If you are making other journeys around Greater London in the same day than it will probably be worth it.

£8.10 with a Senior Railcard, which the OP seems to have - it's not entirely clear though as they actually mention a "senior citizens card" (which could be interpreted as a concessionary bus pass or London Freedom Pass).

 

[MikeWh]

Touch out and in again at the same gateline will start a new journey immediately*. If there are standalone validators then you need to leave 2 minutes between touch out and touch in, unless the station is listed as a continuation exit whereupon you need to leave 15 minutes.

*It will also work at different gatelines as long as there isn't an OSI between them. There is a small chance that journeys may be joined together at a gateline if there is disruption which has caused an EOSI to be set. If this causes incomplete journeys then the helpdesk will refund the difference.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Touch out and in again at the same gateline will start a new journey immediately*. If there are standalone validators then you need to leave 2 minutes between touch out and touch in, unless the station is listed as a continuation exit whereupon you need to leave 15 minutes.

*It will also work at different gatelines as long as there isn't an OSI between them. There is a small chance that journeys may be joined together at a gateline if there is disruption which has caused an EOSI to be set. If this causes incomplete journeys then the helpdesk will refund the difference.

Thanks Mike.

A question with an example - King's Cross St Pancras has three LU gatelines, all of which (as per the OSI page on your site) have OSIs between them. If someone was to exit and then re-enter by the very same gateline, by my reckoning that would not invoke an OSI and so would start a brand new journey... or does the comprehensive OSI arrangement at KXSP apply even to the same gateline? (Hope that makes sense!)

 

[swt class 450]

£8.10 with a Senior Railcard, which the OP seems to have - it's not entirely clear though as they actually mention a "senior citizens card" (which could be interpreted as a concessionary bus pass or London Freedom Pass).

If it is an ENCTS bus pass from outside of Greater London than i dont think it would qualify for any discounts?

 

[Joe Paxton]

If it is an ENCTS bus pass from outside of Greater London than i dont think it would qualify for any discounts?

No it wouldn't. I assume the OP meant a Senior Railcard, but it's not entirely clear.

 

[robbeech]

I'm fairly sure that a tap out and back in at the same set of gates will still be considered an OSI. I don't think this is because the system isn't clever enough, i think it is there to benefit most users who would always like the cheapest journey. We are the odd ones out i guess.
A good read (and you need more than a few minutes to do so) of Mike's site is well worth it for anyone who wants to do anything more than just get from A to B using Public transport in London. There are useful lists for OSI times (they differ for each station and sometimes the amount of time is different depending on the direction of travel, for example a change between underground and national rail gives longer than a change between national rail and the underground for the same station). That has caught me out at London Bridge before coming off the Northern line and then taking the Train that goes all the way around to Victoria.

So to conclude, check your minimum connection times, there's a lot of different ones depending on the zones you pass through and the time of day and day of the week.
Check your OSI list and make sure you leave enough time OR tap on a bus and get off again to break the OSI.
Keep an eye on the time, if you get delayed you may need to get off at a station and tap out and in (leaving the correct amount of time).
Consider a day travelcard, they're a bit more of a faff at the barriers but if your plan is to travel on trains as much as you can then you'll be minimising the number of barriers you need to go through too.

 

[bluegoblin7]

Thanks Mike.

A question with an example - King's Cross St Pancras has three LU gatelines, all of which (as per the OSI page on your site) have OSIs between them. If someone was to exit and then re-enter by the very same gateline, by my reckoning that would not invoke an OSI and so would start a brand new journey... or does the comprehensive OSI arrangement at KXSP apply even to the same gateline? (Hope that makes sense!)

Yes and no. Initially it will 'break' the OSI and start a new journey (thus requiring the minimum amount to re-enter, unlike on any other gateline), but upon touch out will wipe the in-out-in and charge the appropriate fare.

 

[paddington]

If you have 2 Oysters and won't hit any daily caps, then might as well change over at South Ruislip to prevent any issues. However, this may cause a worse problem if you can't remember which Oyster is which!

Depending on where you are originating from, could also do origin-Paddington,(via South Ruislip but Oyster won't know), i.e. touch out at Paddington and wait a bit then re-enter. This will work as long as there is a fare set for origin-NR Paddington but beware maximum journey times

 

[Joe Paxton]

If you have 2 Oysters and won't hit any daily caps, then might as well change over at South Ruislip to prevent any issues. However, this may cause a worse problem if you can't remember which Oyster is which!

There's no need to do this at all, exiting and then re-entering through the ticket gates at South Ruislip will end one journey and begin the next.

 

[Bookd]

Regardless of the nature and numbers of journeys taken would not Oyster cap at the travel card limit, in which case there would be no benefit in a paper ticket?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Regardless of the nature and numbers of journeys taken would not Oyster cap at the travel card limit, in which case there would be no benefit in a paper ticket?

Oyster caps at a slightly lower price than a paper ticket, for Z1-6 anyway.

But you don't have to worry about any of the problems of maximum journey times or OSIs with a paper ticket. For "unusual" travel, such as circular journeys or stopping to spot for a while, paper is a much more sensible choice. You know where you are with a paper ticket. For 30p, I think it's well worth the peace of mind.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Regardless of the nature and numbers of journeys taken would not Oyster cap at the travel card limit, in which case there would be no benefit in a paper ticket?

No, because any incomplete journeys - including journeys which exceed the maximum time limit (which can happen unintentionally, when two or more journeys are conjoined when passing through OSIs) - do not contribute towards the cap. This happens even if the daily cap has already been reached - i.e. if you reach the cap and then have an incomplete journey, the charge for that incomplete journey will be on top of the cap.

In other words, an Oyster card that has reached a daily cap doesn't suddenly and magically turn into a Day Travelcard (or the functional equivalent thereof). You still need to abide by the logic of using Oyster (a logic not unfairly based on people making journeys from one place to another, not hanging around on the network all day!).

I mainly use contactless these days, which is a little bit more forgiving as the processing is done on a central database rather than on the fly thoughout the day on the Oyster card (or more accurately when the Oyster card meets an Oyster reader) - contactless means the back office processes can separate out one through journey that passes through an OSI and exceeds the maximum time allowance into two journeys, and charge them accordingly. Next year the plan is for a next generation Oyster Mark II system where the same back office processing will happen for next gen Oyster cards as currently is the case for contactless cards.

However I suspect that committed gricers could still manage to confuse and bemuse the contactless back office system! (And like Oyster it's still going to enforce maximum journeys times, so you can't just enter at Holborn, spend all day riding around then exit at Covent Garden several hours later and expect to only be charged a zone 1 fare!)

So, in short, what Arctic Troll said above!

 

[MikeWh]

Yes and no. Initially it will 'break' the OSI and start a new journey (thus requiring the minimum amount to re-enter, unlike on any other gateline), but upon touch out will wipe the in-out-in and charge the appropriate fare.

I don't think this is correct. If you start a new journey on Oyster then that is what it will be. The Oyster card-centric system hasn't got time to query earlier journeys while you touch your card on the reader.

It is possible that contactless might do this, but I'm not convinced unless I actually see it. Contactless certainly doesn't require a minimum amount.