South Eastern ITT - train service requirements

[Barn]

What do people think of the new TSR from 2022 in the South Eastern ITT?

Speaking selfishly, I'm a bit peeved that the North Kent Line will lose its Charing Cross service. This is likely to cause large numbers of people to need to change at London Bridge or (heaven forbid) Lewisham.

It also means the line has a choice of 4tph to Cannon Street via Greenwich or 2tph to Cannon Street via Blackheath. As the via Blackheath trains will also call at New Cross and St Johns, I wouldn't be surprised if the journey time extends so much that you might as well just wait and get the next via Greenwich train.

The Bexleyheath line will get 6tph to Charing Cross in peak times, plus 4tph to Cannon Street. It wouldn't seem impossible to swap two of those Charing Cross services with the North Kent Cannon Street services, thus giving both lines a choice of terminal.

Other big changes I've noticed so far include Sevenoaks calls being dropped from Hastings line services.

 

[BluePenguin]

Oh no, not more stops! Whose stupid idea was this?

A few years ago the Ramgate via Canterbury West and via Dover Priory services stopped at Tonbridge, Hidenborough, Sevenoaks and Orpington. Only stopping at Tonbridge and Sevenoaks at the moment goes a long way to making an already very slow service a little better.

The Hastings line is also very slow so I can understand they want to speed it up a little. However the Tunbridge Wells services cover all the stops between Tonbridge and Orpington already so why they now want to add them onto the Ramsgate services is strange - maybe the Tunbridge Wells service will be axed leaving the Hastings one to cover?

 

[tbwbear]

What is happening on the Maidstone East line ?

St Mary Cray is increased to 2 TPH.

And Maidstone gets trains into London Bridge on Sunday. Presumably as the new proposed Thameslink (Maidstone-Blackfriars-Cambridge) trains won't run on Sundays ?

Currently Otford gets one fast train to London Victoria on a Sunday.

Am I reading it correctly that it will now get 2 to Victoria and 2 to London Bridge ?

Or does London Bridge replace Victoria on a Sunday ?

 

[kentman]

Looks like some changes to Metro the service patterns, if I read the tables rights. eg Sidcup line :
4 tph 15 mins evenish, not Lewisham made of

2 tph London Charring Cross - Dartford (and maybe onward)
2 tph London Charring Cross - Crayford and then onto London Cannon st via Woolwich.​

2 tph London Victoria - Crayford and on wards.
With extra Cannon Street services (not Lewisham) only in the morning and afternoon peaks.

Bexleyheath line is losing it's Victoria services, these will instead be the 2tph above, and 2tph via Ladywell. I remember the big uproar when the SRA proposed a similar change to the Victoria service via Bexleyheath.

A writeup on the Metro service changes from the Murky depths website http://www.fromthemurkydepths.co.uk/2017/11/29/new-southeastern-franchise-big-cuts-planned/

 

[Barn]

Oh no, not more stops! Whose stupid idea was this?

A few years ago the Ramgate via Canterbury West and via Dover Priory services stopped at Tonbridge, Hidenborough, Sevenoaks and Orpington. Only stopping at Tonbridge and Sevenoaks at the moment goes a long way to making an already very slow service a little better.

The Hastings line is also very slow so I can understand they want to speed it up a little. However the Tunbridge Wells services cover all the stops between Tonbridge and Orpington already so why they now want to add them onto the Ramsgate services is strange - maybe the Tunbridge Wells service will be axed leaving the Hastings one to cover?

The Tunbridge Wells terminator continues and will likely pick up the required 2tph Hildenborough calls and half of the 4tph fast Orpington calls. The other Orpington calls will be on some services via Ashford International, but other services from the SEML will be fast through Orpington.

The Hastings services get a mandated speed up with a requirement that these trains run fast from Tonbridge to London Bridge.

 

[ScotGG]

At first glance not impressed. The DfT have shown nothing to suggest they knew best above TfL.

There seems a lack of understanding in the plans regarding new housing in London. The Dartford line service changes are odd and seem a reduction in frequency. Links to Crossrail seem poor from Medway stations and other lines.

Is there anything on ideas TfL were planning like extra staffing in the evening (much needed at many stations which can be off-putting at night and pretty much the whole network is open and with open gates with no staff on trains or stations) which has transformed LO stations in south London where the difference to south east London now is massive?

 

[Class 466]

Worth noting that there will be 4tph between CHX and AFK via TON of which only two have to serve Orpington, Marden, Staplehurst, Headcorn or Pluckley with Sevenoaks, Tonbridge & Paddock Wood being served by all 4tph. So no, It's not telling people to use HS more, it's actually providing an alternative for those who travel to destinations south of the river with Faster services

 

[Barn]

There seems a lack of understanding in the plans regarding new housing in London. The Dartford line service changes are odd and seem a reduction in frequency. Links to Crossrail seem poor from Medway stations and other lines.

They are a bit odd. A missing link is the Thameslink service, which will start in May 2018 (hopefully not December 2018, as the DfT stakeholder document says) and which will link the Medway towns with Abbey Wood for Crossrail. Only 2tph though.

Interestingly, there is an option for the North Kent line service to head down to Maidstone West, presumably for further Crossrail connectivity.

 

[HH]

Oh no, not more stops! Whose stupid idea was this?

Look to the man running the competition for DfT. A man of unparalleled experience in the rail industry. A man who listens to his experts before making decisions. In short a very paragon of railway virtue!

 

[30907]

Worth noting that there will be 4tph between CHX and AFK via TON of which only two have to serve Orpington, Marden, Staplehurst, Headcorn or Pluckley with Sevenoaks, Tonbridge & Paddock Wood being served by all 4tph. So no, It's not telling people to use HS more, it's actually providing an alternative for those who travel to destinations south of the river with Faster services

About time too.

 

[cle]

I wonder who thought that moving the Victoria services to run via Sidcup was a good idea. Hayes, yes, as it's a proper increase and a new market - but Blackheath onwards have had and used these services well for years.

Interesting with the TL changes, that there will be now 8tph through Nunhead (4 TL, 4 Vic/Lew) - as well as Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye (without the Overground and fasts) - which is a great uplift for those three booming stations.

The 4tph also make a Brockley interchange, however difficult, a little more interesting frequency-wise. Especially combined with ELL frequency uplifts too at Brockley.

 

[kentman]

I wonder who thought that moving the Victoria services to run via Sidcup was a good idea. Hayes, yes, as it's a proper increase and a new market - but Blackheath onwards have had and used these services well for years.

From an operational point of view it looks to be all about reducing the conflicting moves across the Lewisham junction. All I can see that will go across the diamond, and also using the Tanners Hill fly down, is the 4 tph (+2tph in peaks) Charing Cross via Bexlyheath service.

 

[BluePenguin]

About time too.

Yes definitely!

Worth noting that there will be 4tph between CHX and AFK via TON of which only two have to serve Orpington, Marden, Staplehurst, Headcorn or Pluckley with Sevenoaks, Tonbridge & Paddock Wood being served by all 4tph. So no, It's not telling people to use HS more, it's actually providing an alternative for those who travel to destinations south of the river with Faster services

I am not sure I understand your post. Do you mean 2tph from Ashford will only call at Paddock Wood, Tonbridge and Sevenoaks?

 

[30907]

Yes definitely!

I am not sure I understand your post. Do you mean 2tph from Ashford will only call at Paddock Wood, Tonbridge and Sevenoaks?

Not necessarily, though that would be a very likely scenario.
A possible alternative would be for the "fast" to call at Orpington instead of the "slow" - and there are various theoretically allowable but unlikely options involving skip-stops!

 

[BluePenguin]

Not necessarily, though that would be a very likely scenario.
A possible alternative would be for the "fast" to call at Orpington instead of the "slow" - and there are various theoretically allowable but unlikely options involving skip-stops!

Ahh yes there are lots of possible combinations. It would make sense for the fast to not stop at Orpington in my opinion. Hopefully they will have at least one an hour that stops minimally

 

[cle]

Post-London Bridge, the peak and off peak capacity of Cannon Street is lower, correct? Is this being fully utilized.

As many have said, there is so much home-building along the Greenwich line, from Deptford and Greenwich itself through Woolwich (no doubt going to increase) and to the eastern end... if anything this stretch needs 10tph as standard and so be treated as a metro.

Cannon Street should only run metro services - Dartford Loop, Hayes and Orpington slows. Higher frequencies and inter-working on all.

We have to be stricter about this egalitarian spread of South London termini. London Bridge will have high frequencies to everywhere from next year - including better than ever Blackfriars and Core. Nicer place to change too... so encourage that.

 

[NorthKent1989]

So it looks like there is going to be 1 line 1 terminal only in future then?

I haven't had a chance to read all the documents yet but is it just me or are rail services about to get worst for SE London in the next few years? Surely there must be some local political opposition to this?

 

[NorthKent1989]

Post-London Bridge, the peak and off peak capacity of Cannon Street is lower, correct? Is this being fully utilized.

As many have said, there is so much home-building along the Greenwich line, from Deptford and Greenwich itself through Woolwich (no doubt going to increase) and to the eastern end... if anything this stretch needs 10tph as standard and so be treated as a metro.

Cannon Street should only run metro services - Dartford Loop, Hayes and Orpington slows. Higher frequencies and inter-working on all.

We have to be stricter about this egalitarian spread of South London termini. London Bridge will have high frequencies to everywhere from next year - including better than ever Blackfriars and Core. Nicer place to change too... so encourage that.

Yes the NK line does need to be 10tph and I think this will happen soon, can even see the semi fast services being reintroduced from Medway (either as a Thameslink service or some future SE franchise) only I would add a stop st Erith since of the stations between Abbey Wood and Dartford, Erith as well as being a area of mass development is also a town which is growing.

If CX trains are to leave the NK line for good then it could be a good idea to divert the Rainham GTR service via Blackheath and Lewisham, easier to run into the Thameslink core then.

 

[NSE]

I agree with Cle. I don't see them harm in promoting the change at London Bridge. I use Petts Wood daily and the only catch for me is that the current Cannon Street trains don't stop at London Bridge, but of course that is only temporary. Its a very well connected network. Often when I leave Petts Wood I take the first northbound train as I have a variety of ways to get home, be it on a Victoria, Charing Cross or Cannon Street train. So I don't see the issue with limiting the selection of London Termini to keep the timetable far more resilient across junctions.

Also, I don't think it was strictly to keep it 'one line, one terminal' but to restrict conflicting moves where ever possible to keep up the service. Yeah, it might suck to have a Charing Cross train gone, but if its replaced by two Cannon Street trains within that time, I think that's a good thing.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I agree with Cle. I don't see them harm in promoting the change at London Bridge. I use Petts Wood daily and the only catch for me is that the current Cannon Street trains don't stop at London Bridge, but of course that is only temporary. Its a very well connected network. Often when I leave Petts Wood I take the first northbound train as I have a variety of ways to get home, be it on a Victoria, Charing Cross or Cannon Street train. So I don't see the issue with limiting the selection of London Termini to keep the timetable far more resilient across junctions.

Also, I don't think it was strictly to keep it 'one line, one terminal' but to restrict conflicting moves where ever possible to keep up the service. Yeah, it might suck to have a Charing Cross train gone, but if its replaced by two Cannon Street trains within that time, I think that's a good thing.

1 line one terminal could work on certain lines I think however, think of the political opposition you'll get just by suggesting that some lines should do this, around Lewisham especially is where this situation is needed.

Sure it'd be nice to have 6-8tph to three terminals but that won't work either sometimes 4tph every 15 minutes to one terminal is better, people need to reminded that National Rail cannot be ran the same way as the Tube.

As a Rochester commuter I just want to get to my destination quicker I don't care if I have to Change at London Bridge.

 

[hassaanhc]

1 line one terminal could work on certain lines I think however, think of the political opposition you'll get just by suggesting that some lines should do this, around Lewisham especially is where this situation is needed.

Sure it'd be nice to have 6-8tph to three terminals but that won't work either sometimes 4tph every 15 minutes to one terminal is better, people need to reminded that National Rail cannot be ran the same way as the Tube.

As a Rochester commuter I just want to get to my destination quicker I don't care if I have to Change at London Bridge.

On the occasions I decide to go down there, the Bexleyheath line is very annoying with its three sets of 2tph to Z1 stations. Ok it will be easier once the Cannon Street services start calling at London Bridge again, but still a potential for a 20 minute wait. Having said that, they're lucky that all 6tph at least call at Lewisham. The Hayes line, Sidcup line and the Grove Park line all have 2 of their 4tph use the Lewisham-avoiding lines one or both directions!

 

[cle]

The Dartford lines should only have Cannon Street and Victoria. Easy. With high frequencies to the former. It's not 'turn up and go' when the termini are so disparate in nature.

Change at London Bridge, which has had billions spent on it to make changing better and conflicts less. Everything will stop there now too. Suck it up.

 

[NorthKent1989]

On the occasions I decide to go down there, the Bexleyheath line is very annoying with its three sets of 2tph to Z1 stations. Ok it will be easier once the Cannon Street services start calling at London Bridge again, but still a potential for a 20 minute wait. Having said that, they're lucky that all 6tph at least call at Lewisham. The Hayes line, Sidcup line and the Grove Park line all have 2 of their 4tph use the Lewisham-avoiding lines one or both directions!

Yes I never understood why of all the Dartford lines, the Bexleyheath line is the one that has 3 terminals or even a service to Victoria where it makes an awkward Junction movement at Lewisham.

The Bexleyheath line never seems as busy as the Sidcup, Woolwich or Greenwich lines when I've used it.

Removing Lewisham as a stop for the Hayes, Grove Park and Sidcup lines might be too controversial especially since its a large urban area with a DLR and major Bus interchange, even if you dangled a guaranteed 4tph semi fast run from Ladywell or Hither Green in front of those commuters

 

[hassaanhc]

Yes I never understood why of all the Dartford lines, the Bexleyheath line is the one that has 3 terminals or even a service to Victoria where it makes an awkward Junction movement at Lewisham.

The Bexleyheath line never seems as busy as the Sidcup, Woolwich or Greenwich lines when I've used it.

Removing Lewisham as a stop for the Hayes, Grove Park and Sidcup lines might be too controversial especially since its a large urban area with a DLR and major Bus interchange, even if you dangled a guaranteed 4tph semi fast run from Ladywell or Hither Green in front of those commuters

Sorry, I meant that the other lines should have more stops at Lewisham (therefore agreeing with your point). It is definitely an important interchange (even if the station area itself isn't the nicest ) and allows cheaper non-Z1 fares to a vast area

 

[NorthKent1989]

The Dartford lines should only have Cannon Street and Victoria. Easy. With high frequencies to the former. It's not 'turn up and go' when the termini are so disparate in nature.

Change at London Bridge, which has had billions spent on it to make changing better and conflicts less. Everything will stop there now too. Suck it up.

I kinda agree with you.

As I said earlier Suburban rail in London cannot be ran the same way as the tube, just because you want 6-8-10tph doesn't mean that you'll get a better service, it just means outer suburban services have to stop at more stations in order to do this which is unreasonable.

 

[Barn]

As I said earlier Suburban rail in London cannot be ran the same way as the tube, just because you want 6-8-10tph doesn't mean that you'll get a better service, it just means outer suburban services have to stop at more stations in order to do this which is unreasonable.

I agree to an extent, but with limited track capacity I would tend to focus on frequency and reliability rather than speed.

Journey lengths need to be kept reasonable, but the threshold for skipping suburban stations should be quite high. During the peaks, when the trains via Dartford call at more stations, commuters in Rochester have fast services via Chislehurst which gives them an equivalent journey time to commuters from Slade Green. That isn't a bad result. It isn't really reasonable for people choosing to live further from the capital to expect journey times to be quicker than those living within London.

 

[cle]

Which isn

I agree to an extent, but with limited track capacity I would tend to focus on frequency and reliability rather than speed.

Journey lengths need to be kept reasonable, but the threshold for skipping suburban stations should be quite high. During the peaks, when the trains via Dartford call at more stations, commuters in Rochester have fast services via Chislehurst which gives them an equivalent journey time to commuters from Slade Green. That isn't a bad result. It isn't really reasonable for people choosing to live further from the capital to expect journey times to be quicker than those living within London.

Which is another, franchise v TfL point (and frankly a political/power/class thing) about how places like Sevenoaks or Godalming are prioritized over inner London stations...

 

[NorthKent1989]

I agree to an extent, but with limited track capacity I would tend to focus on frequency and reliability rather than speed.

Journey lengths need to be kept reasonable, but the threshold for skipping suburban stations should be quite high. During the peaks, when the trains via Dartford call at more stations, commuters in Rochester have fast services via Chislehurst which gives them an equivalent journey time to commuters from Slade Green. That isn't a bad result. It isn't really reasonable for people choosing to live further from the capital to expect journey times to be quicker than those living within London.

These days with rising living costs in London particularly zones 1-3 and even zone 4-5, most people cannot afford to live in inner London anymore, I myself had to move to Rochester because I could buy a house easier than renting in Forest Hill/Upper Sydenham, I had no choice to do this and many of my colleagues are in the same position (I know one friend who commutes from Princes Risborough into London Bridge!)

My point is is that I think its perfectly acceptable for fast or semi fast trains to run from Medway, especially the Woolwich line semi fast service, as the bulk of its fast runs are between Gravesend and Abbey Wood ie outer whilst picking up passengers at inner suburban areas such as Woolwich Arsenal, Charlton, Blackheath and Lewisham (justifiable due to the useful TfL connections there)

I think an off peak 4-6tph is very reasonable for a suburban line.

Sevenoaks is now basically a suburban town of London, how far away is Godalming it sounds very Hampshire-y I always thought, never would imagine a TfL service going out there?

 

[NorthKent1989]

What do people think of the new TSR from 2022 in the South Eastern ITT?

Speaking selfishly, I'm a bit peeved that the North Kent Line will lose its Charing Cross service. This is likely to cause large numbers of people to need to change at London Bridge or (heaven forbid) Lewisham.

It also means the line has a choice of 4tph to Cannon Street via Greenwich or 2tph to Cannon Street via Blackheath. As the via Blackheath trains will also call at New Cross and St Johns, I wouldn't be surprised if the journey time extends so much that you might as well just wait and get the next via Greenwich train.

The Bexleyheath line will get 6tph to Charing Cross in peak times, plus 4tph to Cannon Street. It wouldn't seem impossible to swap two of those Charing Cross services with the North Kent Cannon Street services, thus giving both lines a choice of terminal.

Other big changes I've noticed so far include Sevenoaks calls being dropped from Hastings line services.

Can I share this?

 

[Ze Random One]

What do people think of the new TSR from 2022 in the South Eastern ITT?

Speaking selfishly, I'm a bit peeved that the North Kent Line will lose its Charing Cross service. This is likely to cause large numbers of people to need to change at London Bridge or (heaven forbid) Lewisham.

It also means the line has a choice of 4tph to Cannon Street via Greenwich or 2tph to Cannon Street via Blackheath. As the via Blackheath trains will also call at New Cross and St Johns, I wouldn't be surprised if the journey time extends so much that you might as well just wait and get the next via Greenwich train.

The Bexleyheath line will get 6tph to Charing Cross in peak times, plus 4tph to Cannon Street. It wouldn't seem impossible to swap two of those Charing Cross services with the North Kent Cannon Street services, thus giving both lines a choice of terminal.

Other big changes I've noticed so far include Sevenoaks calls being dropped from Hastings line services.

It seems to have been forgotten that the North Kent line will also get 2tph into Thameslink, and if St Paul's, the South Bank, or Fleet Street areas are your destination Blackfriars / City TL are often just as or more convenient. Obviously passengers for much of the West End will be better served by changing to Crossrail. Added to that, if you want parts of North London or indeed connections to the Midlands and North, the Thameslink trains will offer you a through or single connection journey opportunity, something that part of SE London has been lacking up to now.

The NKL area will be particularly well served from 2019, with direct trains to the East End (DLR), Docklands (DLR and Crossrail) City (Thameslink, SE and Crossrail) West End (Crossrail), North London (Thameslink) and Heathrow (Crossrail), as well as direct trains to the hubs of Liverpool Street, Kings Cross St Pancras and Paddington, and a single change or shortish walk from Euston and Waterloo.