South Eastern and High Speed

[atomicdanny]

This is probably a stupid question, lol but Since South Eastern ignored my question, I'd thought that I would ask here.

I was trying to buy a ticket from Aylesham (AYH - in Kent) - St Pancras (with Travelcard), but the routing only seems to be either

Via Faversham or (1 hour 46)
Via Canterbury East - Canterbury West then Via Ashford (2 hrs 25 mins)

but I've found that the fastest route is via Dover Priory (at 1 hour 41) although for some reason every time I try to search for that route I get no options for any tickets, so would this mean that this route is not valid?

My second question though probably a little simpler are normal (non-hs1) tickets valid on the Class 395 services between Gravesend - Faversham (and onwards to Broadstairs) or between Ashford and Ramsgate or Ashford and Dover (i.e. The parts of the routes that don't use High Speed One)

 

[A60K]

Answer to question two is that the High Speed supplement applies purely on the High Speed line. Once the trains are on the classic network there's no difference in fares.

 

[anonymous0101]

This is probably a stupid question, lol but Since South Eastern ignored my question, I'd thought that I would ask here.

I was trying to buy a ticket from Aylesham (AYH - in Kent) - St Pancras (with Travelcard), but the routing only seems to be either

Via Faversham or (1 hour 46)
Via Canterbury East - Canterbury West then Via Ashford (2 hrs 25 mins)

but I've found that the fastest route is via Dover Priory (at 1 hour 41) although for some reason every time I try to search for that route I get no options for any tickets, so would this mean that this route is not valid?

My second question though probably a little simpler are normal (non-hs1) tickets valid on the Class 395 services between Gravesend - Faversham (and onwards to Broadstairs) or between Ashford and Ramsgate or Ashford and Dover (i.e. The parts of the routes that don't use High Speed One)

I'm going to hazard a guess that the Dover to London travelcard (plus high speed) is around the same price at the Aylesham one would be. If you bought the Dover one because it states (any permitted route) you could use it from Aylesham to St.Pancras via Faversham if you wished.

 

[clagmonster]

To determine the permitted routes, you need to use the National Routeing Guide: http://www.atoc.org/about-atoc/rail-settlement-plan/routeing-guide

The routeing points for Aylesham are: Ashford Intl, Dover Priory, Faversham and the Ramsgate group. The London group is a routeing point.
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/routeing_point_identifier.pdf

We now need to determined which of these routeing points are appropriate. To do this, we compare single fares. As there are no single fares from anywhere to London Zones 1-6, in the absence of any stated methods, I will compare fares to London terminals. The only other appropriate action I can think of is to compare day travelcard fares to zones 1-6, I'm sure others will have their opinions as to which is the most appropriate method. I will compare the route 'plus high speed' fares.

Aylesham-London Terminals
Day single: £29.40

Ashford Intl-London Terminals
Day single: £26.60, less than the Aylsesham fare so Ashford Intl is an appropriate routeing point.

Dover Priory-London Terminals
Day single: £32.70, more than the Aylesham fare, so Dover Priory is not an appropriate routeing point.

Faversham-London Terminals
Day single: £22.40, less than the Aylsesham fare so Faversham is an appropriate routeing point.

Ramsgate-London Terminals
Day single: £32.50, more than the Aylesham fare, so Ramsgate is not an appropriate routeing point.

We now need to look up the route permissions for Ashford Intl-London and Faversham-London. These are from Ashford: HS, LB+SD+LK, LK, LK+SL, LL, LR+SL. From Faversham they are: DV+VC, HK, LD, LR, LR+SL, NK.
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/permitted_route_identifier.pdf

These allow routes from the relevent routeing point to London on the stated combinations of maps, used in sequential order, either forwards or backwards.
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/maps.pdf

 

[atomicdanny]

I guess that answers my question thanks , meaning I can go to St Pancras Via Cant West or Via Faversham but not via Dover. Although why would Ramsgate be a routing point for aylesham? It would be going backwards in the case of going to London? (since you would have to change at Faversham or Dover anyway?)

 

[yorkie]

I guess that answers my question thanks , meaning I can go to St Pancras Via Cant West or Via Faversham but not via Dover.

Yes, that's right.

Although why would Ramsgate be a routing point for aylesham?

Because not everyone wants to go to London

It would be going backwards in the case of going to London? (since you would have to change at Faversham or Dover anyway?)

Well that's probably why the fare check rule deems Ramsgate to not be an appropriate routeing point for Aylesham when the destination is London.

 

[atomicdanny]

Yes, that's right.


Because not everyone wants to go to London

Well that's probably why the fare check rule deems Ramsgate to not be an appropriate routeing point for Aylesham when the destination is London.

Fair point, although the only reason why I asked was because I assumed that the only relavant ones would be on the direct line to the station that's all (and because Ramsgate wasn't)

 

[yorkie]

Relevant RPs are simply RPs that pass the fares check rule. Directness doesn't come into it, but I'd hardly say Faversham or Ashford are going out of the way. So the results are just what you'd expect.

 

[atomicdanny]

Sorry to bump an old topic, I actually got a reply from southeastern!

In answer to your first question, you may travel between the stations shown on any ticket that you hold on trains which take the shortest route. The Aylesham to London including high speed fare, therefore, is only valid via the Chatham route. On the question of travelling on a high speed train with a standard off peak ticket, you will always need an upgrade ticket, regardless of how short the journey is.

Apparently you can't use any Standard off peak tickets on the Javelins according to them! (even on the non hs1 parts!)

 

[yorkie]

I'd be tempted to ask them what their IQ is, and if they claim it's any higher than 90 to say they may be lying, but no, that won't get us anywhere.

I'd ask them the following questions:

1) Does South Eastern comply with the National Conditions of Carriage?
2) If so, what do the National Conditions of Carriage state about what routes are permitted?
3) What are the Permitted Routes as defined in the Routeing Guide?
4) If only the shortest route is permitted, what route am I allowed to take on a ticket from Bromley South to London Terminals, and how can I determine if the train takes that route?

 

[Nick W]

I'd be tempted to ask them what their IQ is, and if they claim it's any higher than 90 to say they may be lying, but no, that won't get us anywhere.

Blame the Tories for shutting down various industries in the 80s and forcing people to retrain for jobs they weren't competent for .

I'd ask them the following questions:

1) Does South Eastern comply with the National Conditions of Carriage?
2) If so, what do the National Conditions of Carriage state about what routes are permitted?
3) What are the Permitted Routes as defined in the Routeing Guide?
4) If only the shortest route is permitted, what route am I allowed to take on a ticket from Bromley South to London Terminals, and how can I determine if the train takes that route?

You'd just end up getting the email forwarded to someone competent who would wonder why you asked the original question in the first place...

It's disappointing that there's no way to use it via Dover when that route is quicker. I wonder if there'd be a splitfare that would make it just as cheap to go that way. Aylesham - Ashford can't be that priced due to indirectness of route can it?