South east London railbash

[adrock1976]

Hi

I am planning to bash the above area of London on Friday 4 April.

I have drawn up 2 different itineraries as shown below.

Option 1:

Dep Arr Comments

Charing Cross 936 Knockholt 1018
Knockholt 1044 Grove Park 1103
Grove Park 1115 Bromley North 1120
Bromley North 1125 Grove Park 1130
Grove Park 1142 Orpington 1154

Orpington 1210 Bromley South 1220 Also 1155 dep if connection made arr BS 1205
Bromley South 1244 St Mary Cray 1251 Also 1214 dep if above connection made. Subsequent timings will be 30 min ahead
St Mary Cray 1254 Blackfriars 1334
Blackfriars 1342 Bromley South 1414
Bromley South 1420 Victoria via Herne Hill 1447

Victoria 1509 Barnehurst 1551
Barnehurst 1602 Slade Green 1612
Slade Green 1617 Barnehurst 1634
Barnehurst 1639 Dartford 1648 Boundary Zone 6 required. Also 1651 arr 1700

Dartford 1718 Charing Cross via Sidcup 1803 Arr London Bridge 1753
Charing Cross 1812 Crayford via Greenwich and Slade Green 1909 Dep London Bridge 1821
Crayford 1922 Lewisham via Sidcup 1947
Lewisham 1956 Charlton 2003
Charlton 2017 Charing Cross via Lewisham 2044


Option 2:

Arr Dep Comments

Charing Cross 939 Charlton via Lewisham and Blackheath 1003
Charlton 1017 Blackheath 1022
Blackheath 1041 Slade Green via Bexleyheath 1112
Slade Green 1117 Barnehurst 1134
Barnehurst 1138 Dartford 1145 Boundary Zone 6 required

Dartford 1218 Hither Green via Sidcup 1242
Hither Green 1253 Knockholt 1318
Knockholt 1344 Grove Park 1403
Grove Park 1415 Bromley North 1420
Bromley North 1425 Grove Park 1430
Grove Park 1442 Orpington 1454

Orpington 1510 Bromley South 1520
Bromley South 1544 St Mary Cray 1551
St Mary Cray 1554 Blackfriars 1634
Blackfriars 1642 Bromley South 1714
Bromley South 1720 Victoria via Herne Hill 1747

Victoria 1756 Lewisham 1817
Lewisham 1829 Cannon Street 1842 Arr 1838 London Bridge
Cannon Street 1850 Slade Green via Sidcup 1926 Dep 1854 London Bridge
Slade Green 1950 London Bridge via Greenwich 2027
London Bridge 2033 Charing Cross 2042


The next day I intend to bash the Hayes branch early evening.

Charing Cross 1817 Hayes avoiding Lewisham 1855
Hayes 1914 Charing Cross via Lewisham 1958


I am seeking advice as to which of the above options are most likely to work out as planned, as there is very little time difference between them both. Also, owing to the complexity of the various routes in this area, in the event of severe disruption, which services would most likely to fall by the wayside i.e. cancelled or terminated short of destination?

I am not expecting an easy answer - I would like to know if anybody who has more knowledge than me about this part of London who has experienced problems could point out any pitfalls of my intended itinerary.


In peace
Adam

 

[adrock1976]

I have also came up with a third option via Sevenoaks.

Option 3 via Sevenoaks

Charing Cross 913 Sevenoaks via Orpington 943 Orpington to Shoreham OP rtn required
Sevenoaks 1002 Blackfriars via Catford Loop 1104
Blackfriars 1112 Bromley South 1144
Bromley South 1151 Orpington 1202 Arr Plat 8

Orpington 1221 Grove Park 1233 Plat 7 dep
Grove Park 1235 Bromley North 1240
Bromley North 1245 Grove Park 1250
Grove Park 1253 Hither Green 1307
Hither Green 1314 Dartford via Sidcup 1338 Barnehurst to Dartford OP rtn

Dartford 1352 Barnehurst 1359
Barnehurst 1402 Slade Green 1412
Slade Green 1426 Crayford 1434
Crayford 1448 Slade Green 1454 Loop train. Continues in service
Slade Green 1455 Charlton 1515
Charlton 1517 Blackheath 1522
Blackheath 1529 Charlton 1533
Charlton 1535 Cannon Street via Greenwich 1554

Cannon Street 1610 Hither Green via Lewisham 1629
Hither Green 1639 Orpington 1657
Orpington 1710 Victoria via Herne Hill (Chatham Main Line) 1748
Victoria 1756 Barnehurst via Lewisham and Bexleyheath 1840
Barnehurst 1846 Lewisham via Bexleyheath 1907
Lewisham 1920 Charing Cross 1936

Charing Cross 1947 Hayes avoiding Lewisham 2025
Hayes 2044 Charing Cross via Lewisham 2127

or

Charing Cross 1817 Hayes avoiding Lewisham 1855 05/04/14
Hayes 1914 Charing Cross via Lewisham 1958

 

[BritishRail83]

Options 1 & 3 seem best to me. The Mid Kent Line to Hayes always used to be the poor relation of the South Eastern division in the London area. I see you plan to do the North Kent Line to Charlton my old local Line. Enjoy the Units, you will get a good selection across your planned Lines.

 

[Techniquest]

Your first itinerary is probably the best one, however as someone's who spent a fair bit of time cranking in that part of London recently I would definitely not recommend trying that 1 minute connection at Orpington. You'll arrive into any of platforms 6, 7 or 8 on that 1154 arrival, and I think the 1210 back out of Orpington will be the same train. However, you could come in only part way into platform 8 (as you could have a 466 at the blocks, as happened on my recent visit) and have to run down the platform and over to number 6. Not a long way at all, but still not a likely connection. Not impossible, certainly there's a slim chance of it not being dispatched before you get a chance to board it if it's on platform 7, but don't rely on it.

Knockholt is pretty rural so don't rely on any shops or whatever nearby, I know as I've been there. However it's a nice place to watch trains at Chelsfield is also nice, although I didn't spend more than a matter of moments there on Monday so can't accurately comment but it looked like a nice place to spend some time.

The 1254 from St Mary Cray should be 319s if that's of any interest to you

Generally speaking you should be fine down there, most of the time the service is pretty reliable, having spent a lot of time down that way during my 2012 ALR as well as during a London bash in 2013.

Have a good trip down there, and hope the above is of some sort of help!

 

[Philip C]

Your first itinerary is probably the best one, however as someone's who spent a fair bit of time cranking in that part of London recently I would definitely not recommend trying that 1 minute connection at Orpington.

Why not simply change between the train from Grove Park and that to Bromley South at Petts Wood giving you 7 minutes to cross the platform and no steps involved? Easy and you'll already have been down through Orpington earlier (or are the rules of your "bash" more complicated?).

 

[30907]

Ditto using Bickley instead of Bromley S (so long as it's a Sevenoaks stopper).

3 minutes at St Mary Cray should be OK but a 2-minute connection at Grove Park is dodgy - the shuttle doesn't wait for connections even from London in recent experience

 

[adrock1976]

Many thanks for all your tips and replies - I have settled on my third option (via Sevenoaks).

I was asked a question regarding the rules of my bash in one of the above posts. The rule I have is simple - cover as much track operated by scheduled passenger services in Zones 1 to 6 in the South East area.

I intend to do the Charing Cross to Cannon Street shuttle on Sunday morning. Then as I will next be in London in July to focus on the north east area, I will intend to do Liverpool Street to Enfield Town to get that one out of the way after Cannon Street.

Saturday morning I intend to do Liverpool Street to Chingford and Saturday evening I intend to do Fenchurch Street - Grays via Dagenham - Upminster - Fenchurch Street.

In July, I can then concentrate on the remaining north east area and fit in the Shepperton branch (via Strawberry Hill and Fulwell), Hounslow to Twickenham in the South West (as I missed those on 1st January due to Sunday service), and the Beckenham Junction - New Beckenham curve in the South East.

In peace

Adam

 

[Kite159]

The Shepperton Branch, would make live easier if it was Oyster all the way to the end.

Southeastern part of London zones is on my to-cover list, maybe one weekend

 

[Techniquest]

Why not simply change between the train from Grove Park and that to Bromley South at Petts Wood giving you 7 minutes to cross the platform and no steps involved? Easy and you'll already have been down through Orpington earlier (or are the rules of your "bash" more complicated?).

Whether you were replying to me or the OP I don't know, but I guess Petts Wood escaped my memory when I was making my previous post

 

[adrock1976]

Trip report update

Having settled on Option 3, my planned bash went according to plan with the exception of the Charlton - Blackheath section, as it was closed due to a freight train derailment a couple of days previously.

The Sevenoaks - Blackfriars was worked by 319446 named "St Pancras International", coupled with 319461 behind. The Blackfriars - Bromley South was worked by 319011 named "John Ruskin College".

I made it in time at Grove Park for the Bromley North shuttle, which was worked by 465016.

Victoria - Barnehurst via Lewisham and Bexleyheath was worked by 465905 leading, with 466001 and 466023 coupled behind. I have never seen a 4/2/2 car formation before, so this was a first experience for me!

Lewisham - Charing Cross was worked by 376013 and 376004 coupled together, both of which were to remain with me for the trip down to Hayes and back.

Signalling problems at London Bridge meant that the train from Hayes was terminated there, so for the short trip back to Charing Cross, I waited for the next service which was worked by 376028 and 376018 so as to get a couple of extra units scored off the list.

Saturday morning I did the Chingford branch. The 08:33 and 09:10 return to Liverpool Street was worked by 315842.

Early evening the 18:15 Fenchurch Street - Grays via Dagenham was worked by 357223, the 1909 Grays - Upminster shuttle worked by 357215, and the 1932 Upminster - Fenchurch Street was worked by 357020 and 357201. The first impression I got of Dagenham was industrial decline, crumbling buildings, and very bleak. It even makes Greenock in Scotland look very posh indeed - Greenock has a boat show and has cruise liners that stop off during the summer

I made my way to Charing Cross so as to get the Blackheath - Charlton section done as the line had reopened. the 20:39 was worked by 465175 and 475165. the 21:17 Charlton - Charing Cross was worked by 465022 with 466011 behind. There were 2 guys who had been drinking and as we were in the 466 unit which did not have a toilet, one of the guys had used one of their empty bottles to urinate in, as he was bursting at that point on the approach to London Bridge.

Sunday morning due to engeneering works at London Bridge, this gave me a chance to do the Charing Cross - Cannon Street shuttle. the 08:15 was worked by 465002 and 465039. This meant that I have completed all sides of the triangle around London Bridge station. I walked along to Monument tube station to get to Liverpool Street for the 08:52 departure to Broxbourne via Seven Sisters. This was worked by 317513 (many thanks to the person who responded to my post in the diagrams thread). After a nice cup of Earl Grey tea, I boarded the diverted 09:52 service back to Liverpool Street (normally runs to Stratford) via Tottenham Hale, which was worked by 317661 and 317504.

My south east railbash gave me the chance to ride a variety of DC third rail traction. This comprised of 375, 319,465, 466, and 376.

Saturday and Sunday I made a head start for my next railbash in July, of which I will be concentrating on the north east area of London, and will also fit in the Beckenham Junction - New Beckenham curve, the Shepperton branch in the south west (both via Teddington and via Strawberry Hill - Fulwell peak service), and Whitton - Hounslow curve.

It does seem strange that part of the Shepperton branch is not in Zone 6 beyond Hampton. Although it is in Surrey, this does not explain how Epsom Downs, Tattenham Corner, and Caterham branches are included in Zone 6, as the only possible direction to go starting from the branch terminus is into Greater London itself. Perhaps Brian Souter and his sister Ann Gloag (the owners of Stagecoach) are opposed to the stations outwith the Greater London boundary becoming part of the Transport for London administration regarding fare setting and Oyster/travelcards?

In peace

Adam