South-East chord at Manton Junction

[Nottingham59]

If the Bedford-Cambridge section of East-West Rail gets cancelled, I was idly wondering how much use a single-track South-East chord at Manton junction would be? It would allow:

• Freights from Southampton and the South Coast to access Peterborough and the East Side of the country without going through London or Birmingham.
• Freights from East Coast ports to access southern England, again avoiding London.
• Services from Oxford or Marston Vale to extend through to Peterborough, giving pretty good cross country connectivity, even if they didn't go directly to Cambridge.

Are there many freight flows today that would use this chord? I would not expect many passengers to be changing at Leicester currently, but that may change when the Oxford-Bedford service starts on EWR.

I know that the MML is classed as "congested infrastructure", but the full four-tracking of Kettering to Bedford must have provided extra capacity.

See the blue markup in this clip from openrailwaymap.org


Previously discussed here:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...e-will-it-ever-get-built.236124/#post-5822469
and here:

East West Rail Link 2 - Manton Junction Upgrade?

I was thinking why there can’t be an additional curve by installed at Manton Junction to allow an East West service run East Anglia - Peterborough - Stamford - Corby - Kettering - Wellingborough - Bedford and beyond? Even a double back at Oakham could significantly open up journey...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Bevan Price]

Historically there was no need for such a curve, because there were alternative routes from Luffenham & Peterborough / Yarwell Junction to Market Harborough.

 

[The Planner]

Not sure what would use it. Most stuff from the east is heading towards the Midlands and WCML. Not aware of anything that comes out of Southampton and heads east and going via Manton would add serious miles and journey time.

 

[TheBigD]

Was considered in Regional Railways days for a proposed Swindon to Peterborough service*. One publicity run ran with a class 155 unit which reversed at Manton Junction. The proposals died a death.

* route would have been Swindon-Oxford-Bletchley Flyover-Bedford-Corby-Stamford -Peterborough.

 

[30907]

On the passenger side, it's a pretty circuitous route even to Peterborough, and for Cambridge it would be slower that the coach.
Peterborough isn't a huge traffic magnet in itself and most of the Cross-country connectivity there would be for Doncaster and further North, so more sensibly via Brum (or Tamworth from MKC), while to-East Anglia is mostly better via London.

For freight, as The Planner says, there won't be a huge amount East of Bletchley even if the route continues to Cambridge.

 

[Nottingham59]

On the passenger side, it's a pretty circuitous route even to Peterborough, and for Cambridge it would be slower that the coach.
Peterborough isn't a huge traffic magnet in itself and most of the Cross-country connectivity there would be for Doncaster and further North, so more sensibly via Brum (or Tamworth from MKC), while to-East Anglia is mostly better via London.

For freight, as The Planner says, there won't be a huge amount East of Bletchley even if the route continues to Cambridge.

Thank you, both, for your insights. A search of realtimetrains shows typically one intermodal per day actually running from Southampton to each of Doncaster, Leeds, Wakefield and Teesside. And, as you say, these could run via Brum or Nuneaton. And the passenger demand would, I guess, not fill a single 158 every one or even every two hours.

So not worth bothering with, unless freight is driven out of London to allow more passenger use.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Was considered in Regional Railways days for a proposed Swindon to Peterborough service*. One publicity run ran with a class 155 unit which reversed at Manton Junction. The proposals died a death.

* route would have been Swindon-Oxford-Bletchley Flyover-Bedford-Corby-Stamford -Peterborough.

Interesting - I knew RR was looking at it (and later GWT) but not that a special had actually run. Are there any pics/accounts of the day?

 

[Nottingham59]

It would be interesting to see how much Southampton freight gets routed via Oxford-Bedford, when East-West opens

 

[zwk500]

It would be interesting to see how much Southampton freight gets routed via Oxford-Bedford, when East-West opens

IIRC the timetable allows for 1 path per hour.

 

[Nottingham59]

IIRC the timetable allows for 1 path per hour.

Sounds about right. I'd expect this is an example of a flow that might go via Bedford. Currently routed via Oxford, Birmingham and Toton.

Realtime Trains | 4E68 1551 Soton W Docks Berth 109 to Wakefield Europort | 24/02/2023

Real-time train running information for 4E68 1551 departure from Soton W Docks Berth 109 to Wakefield Europort on 24/02/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[zwk500]

Sounds about right. I'd expect this is an example of a flow that might go via Bedford. Currently routed via Oxford, Birmingham and Toton.

Realtime Trains | 4E68 1551 Soton W Docks Berth 109 to Wakefield Europort | 24/02/2023

Real-time train running information for 4E68 1551 departure from Soton W Docks Berth 109 to Wakefield Europort on 24/02/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Stops for staffing reasons in Birmingham, and I'm fairly sure W10/12 clearance won't be going beyond Bletchley so personally doubt that one would move. There's also the capacity crunch at Harborough getting an extra freight path, or the rather lounder crunch of trying to send W12 containers north of Corby (The Corby line is only W7).
Even if it did run via the MML it's not going to be using a new chord at Manton Jn. The issue for anything going South > East at Manton Jn is you face south at Peterborough, so you may as well have run via London. Adding in runrounds on 6/7 or extra crossing moves at New England Jn is not going to be welcome. This particular schedule would be best served with a chord at Tamworth or Lichfield to go Trent Valley > Burton.

Freight via EWR is likely to be Southampton-Trafford Park traffic, or maybe Southampton-Crewe to get it out of Birmingham. The WCML is already clear for those trains and route knowledge will be less of an issue.

 

[The Planner]

None of it will be going via Bedford as its not gauge cleared as @zwk500 notes.

 

[Nottingham59]

None of it will be going via Bedford as its not gauge cleared as @zwk500 notes.

I hadn't realised the MML was so gauge restricted. Makes you wonder they bothered reinstating the fourth track and electrifying all four tracks between Bedford and Kettering.

 

[zwk500]

I hadn't realised the MML was so gauge restricted. Makes you wonder they bothered reinstating the fourth track and electrifying all four tracks between Bedford and Kettering.

I wouldn't be surprised if Bedford-Kettering is more paperwork than actual clearances after the electrification work, but London-Bedford is only W8, Corby - Manton is W7 and Bedford-Bletchley is W6/7 (can't remember which) so nobody's had any interest in doing the paperwork. It's also possible that there are some bridges that have the centreline clearance for OLE but not the corner boxiness for containers.