Son turned off train for 'illegible railcard'

[Essexman]

My son is travelling from Victoria to Herne Bay this afternoon. The guard checked his ticket and said he couldn't read the date on his YP Railcard so it is not valid. He didn't have enough money on him to pay the extra so he was told to get off the train at Longfield and go back to Victoria. The guard however took his ticket so now he has no way of showing he has paid a fare at all. He was given nothing to prove that he had bought this ticket and surrended it to the guard.

His railcard is worn but you can read the letters LY on the date - so it must be July - which is when it runs out.

Is it reasonable for a guard to turn someone off the train and take theri ticket in these circumstances?

 

[NLC1072]

My son is travelling from Victoria to Herne Bay this afternoon. The guard checked his ticket and said he couldn't read the date on his YP Railcard so it is not valid. He didn't have enough money on him to pay the extra so he was told to get off the train at Longfield and go back to Victoria. The guard however took his ticket so now he has no way of showing he has paid a fare at all. He was given nothing to prove that he had bought this ticket and surrended it to the guard.

His railcard is worn but you can read the letters LY on the date - so it must be July - which is when it runs out.

Is it reasonable for a guard to turn someone off the train and take theri ticket in these circumstances?

He should of left him with a receipt for the ticket in order for your son to complete the journey in this instance as a zero fare I believe. Somebody else will be along to explain more soon as this isn't my field of expertise.

 

[yorkie]

Complain to the highest level possible until you get an adequate response. I'm happy to proof read a letter.

 

[ainsworth74]

At the very least your son should have been issued with a receipt/zero fare excess to allow him to complete his journey or return to his origin (I think by the book it's complete the journey but I'd hope discretion would be shown and travel home could be authorised).

Whilst he should ensure that his railcard is legible (you can get replacements free of charge at manned stations) the actions as described are concerning and I agree with the above. Complain to the appropriate customer services.

 

[Essexman]

Thanks for replies.
He decided to continue his journey and his friend is meeting him at Herne Bay to pay if necessary.
I will take it up with Customer Services for starters.

 

[furlong]

Complain to the highest level possible until you get an adequate response. I'm happy to proof read a letter.

(After you have discussed with your son the seriousness of such a complaint, which could lead to someone being disciplined or losing their job, and convinced yourself that your son did still have a ticket and is telling you the truth.)

 

[fowler9]

(After you have discussed with your son the seriousness of such a complaint, which could lead to someone being disciplined or losing their job, and convinced yourself that your son did still have a ticket and is telling you the truth.)

Purely out of interest if the OPs son had presented the guard with a railcard and no ticket would the result just have been that they were put off the train?

 

[455driver]

(After you have discussed with your son the seriousness of such a complaint, which could lead to someone being disciplined or losing their job, and convinced yourself that your son did still have a ticket and is telling you the whole truth and not leaving out any relevant details.)

Edited that a bit for you!
Was he actually turned off the train because the railcard was illegible or were some other factors (which we are not privy to) in place to cause the removal!
<cough> attitude test <cough>.

Note-
I am not saying this is the case but it does seem rather odd that a simple illegible railcard would lead to somebody being removed from the train.

 

[PaxVobiscum]

Pleased with your edit Yoda would be.

 

[fowler9]

I'm sure that if a formal complaint was made then any other factors would come out in the wash.

 

[Tom B]

(After you have discussed with your son the seriousness of such a complaint, which could lead to someone being disciplined or losing their job, and convinced yourself that your son did still have a ticket and is telling you the truth.)

Quite - but I don't think there need be any concern on the passenger's side as to the penalty that the inspector would face.

In a hypothetical situation where a passenger was found to have been badly treated, contrary to policies, then the inspector would be disciplined. The details of this will not be known to the passenger as it is a matter between him and his employer - if he has a problem with their disciplinary system he ought to raise that with the union.

In a hypothetical situation where a passenger was found to be argumentative or there be more to it than meets the eye, then the complaint would be treated with appropriate reservation.

If a company wrongfully disciplines staff that is between the staff and the company and should not be a worry of the customer.

 

[34D]

Has your son arrived at Herne Bay? Did he buy his ticket from Victoria?

 

[island]

My son is travelling from Victoria to Herne Bay this afternoon. The guard checked his ticket and said he couldn't read the date on his YP Railcard so it is not valid. He didn't have enough money on him to pay the extra so he was told to get off the train at Longfield and go back to Victoria. The guard however took his ticket so now he has no way of showing he has paid a fare at all. He was given nothing to prove that he had bought this ticket and surrended it to the guard.

His railcard is worn but you can read the letters LY on the date - so it must be July - which is when it runs out.

Is it reasonable for a guard to turn someone off the train and take theri ticket in these circumstances?

Is the year visible? If not, how is the guard to know that the ticket expires in July 2014 and not 2013?

 

[fowler9]

Is the year visible? If not, how is the guard to know that the ticket expires in July 2014 and not 2013?

Who sold him the ticket in the first place? Are there ticket machines that just ask if you have a railcard without proof? Asking for trouble.

 

[user15681]

Who sold him the ticket in the first place? Are there ticket machines that just ask if you have a railcard without proof? Asking for trouble.

If bought at Victoria station, there are two options - TVM or ticket office on the Southern concourse. There are 3 SE TVMs opposite platforms 4-6 on the main SE concourse (for which no proof of railcard is necessary, just pressing 'Add Railcard' before purchasing and then choosing the relevant one).

I've so far refrained from adding to this thread, but I've seen a remarkably similar incident to the one the OP describes by a rather unfriendly guard (on multiple occasions) along the same stretch of line. Makes me wonder if it's the same guy. But, I'm not here to pass judgement or criticize people, so I'll leave it at that.

 

[Essexman]

He bought the ticket from a machine at Victoria.
He did reach Herne Bay OK.
I'm not sure of exactly what is legible on the railcard but will look at it before I complain.
I will get him to confirm exactly what happened and make sure that he understands that if there is anything he hasn't told me it will come out in any invesitgation.
I don't think it is reasonable not to complain because a member of staff could be disciplined (provided facts proven which they would have to be for disciplinary action to be taken).

 

[TonyR]

H
I don't think it is reasonable not to complain because a member of staff could be disciplined (provided facts proven which they would have to be for disciplinary action to be taken).

Too right. If he's done it once he might do it again (and another post ^ suggests that he has done) so a stop needs to be put to it.

 

[najaB]

I don't think it is reasonable not to complain because a member of staff could be disciplined (provided facts proven which they would have to be for disciplinary action to be taken).

I don't believe the suggestion was to 'let it slide because he might get fired'. It was just to make sure you have ALL the facts before you complain, which is doubly important if the guard in question has made a habit of this behaviour as he'll probably know all the tricks to get away with it.

 

[Class377]

Even if 'let it slide because he might get fired' was the argument, I'd question that line of reasoning anyway. If he's committed such negligence as to make a mockery of his duty of care with a young passenger, then damn right he should be disciplined (especially if this is the guard with a reputation for such a thing). He shouldn't lose his accountability just because he happens to work in an industry with such a big union!

 

[trentside]

So I take it he wasn't offered the chance to give his details for an Unpaid Fares Notice (UPFN)?

 

[A-driver]

Even if 'let it slide because he might get fired' was the argument, I'd question that line of reasoning anyway. If he's committed such negligence as to make a mockery of his duty of care with a young passenger, then damn right he should be disciplined (especially if this is the guard with a reputation for such a thing). He shouldn't lose his accountability just because he happens to work in an industry with such a big union!

Who has suggested that the size of the union would have anything to do with it?!

 

[Haywain]

Even if 'let it slide because he might get fired' was the argument, I'd question that line of reasoning anyway. If he's committed such negligence as to make a mockery of his duty of care with a young passenger, then damn right he should be disciplined (especially if this is the guard with a reputation for such a thing). He shouldn't lose his accountability just because he happens to work in an industry with such a big union!

Negligence? Duty of care? There are some big assumptions being made there. We don't know how old the OP's son is. He might be a 24-year old 18-stone rubgy player for all we know. And is Longfield such a dangerous place that nobody should be asked to detrain there, even though it is a staffed station? That doesn't mean the guard was right, but we should restrict any criticism to the facts.

 

[IanD]

Could be a 59 year old mature student with a 75 year old parent posting on his behalf.

 

[455driver]

Pleased with your edit Yoda would be.

Damm, just noticed that.
Now corrected.

 

[trentside]

Negligence? Duty of care? There are some big assumptions being made there. We don't know how old the OP's son is. He might be a 24-year old 18-stone rubgy player for all we know. And is Longfield such a dangerous place that nobody should be asked to detrain there, even though it is a staffed station? That doesn't mean the guard was right, but we should restrict any criticism to the facts.

Ignoring the rights and wrongs of this particular situation, I think you could argue that Longfield would be an appropriate place to de-train a passenger if necessary. It has a staffed ticket office, there are shops and a phone box adjacent to the station, it's not in a remote location and has a relatively frequent service should a passenger obtain an appropriate ticket to allow them to complete their journey.

 

[Essexman]

My son is 20, so not a vulnerable young person but understandably he didn't have clue what to do when turned off a train in a strange place with no money to buy another ticket. Hence immediate phone call do Dad. If he had had enough money on him he'd have paid the guard the difference to make his ticket up to full fare. Many travellers of all ages wouldn't have known what to do in such circumstances. He isn't used to travelling on his own on unfamiliar routes.

I will however ensure that all facts are correct before I make a complaint on his behalf.

 

[Haywain]

My son is 20, so not a vulnerable young person but understandably he didn't have clue what to do when turned off a train in a strange place with no money to buy another ticket. Hence immediate phone call do Dad. If he had had enough money on him he'd have paid the guard the difference to make his ticket up to full fare. Many travellers of all ages wouldn't have known what to do in such circumstances. He isn't used to travelling on his own on unfamiliar routes.

I will however ensure that all facts are correct before I make a complaint on his behalf.

I maen no offence by this, but at the age of 20 your son should be making the complaint himself and doing so will probably carry more weight that you doing it for him. People who have to read complaints may well feel that one that comes from you is written from the point of view of an over-protective parent.

 

[fowler9]

I maen no offence by this, but at the age of 20 your son should be making the complaint himself and doing so will probably carry more weight that you doing it for him. People who have to read complaints may well feel that one that comes from you is written from the point of view of an over-protective parent.

If its anything like when I was younger I usually couldn't be bothered with the hassle so my dad would go ahead and complain for me despite resistance from me. Ha ha. He used to do quite well n'all which is something I learned from and am now more likely to complain, although I am not a serial complainer.

As for the guard, I doubt he would get disciplined unless he has been pulled for it several times before. Unless it counts as gross misconduct that is. Someone who is a guard will be better placed than me to comment on that.
If someone is doing it all the time and has been warned then perhaps they should be disciplined or sacked.

 

[A-driver]

If its anything like when I was younger I usually couldn't be bothered with the hassle so my dad would go ahead and complain for me despite resistance from me. Ha ha. He used to do quite well n'all which is something I learned from and am now more likely to complain, although I am not a serial complainer.



As for the guard, I doubt he would get disciplined unless he has been pulled for it several times before. Unless it counts as gross misconduct that is. Someone who is a guard will be better placed than me to comment on that.

If someone is doing it all the time and has been warned then perhaps they should be disciplined or sacked.

If what is stated here is exactly what happened then action may well be taken. But they will of course take the guards side of the story into account to and that may give a fairer, less one sided, overall picture of the events.

 

[185]

Even if 'let it slide because he might get fired' was the argument, I'd question that line of reasoning anyway. If he's committed such negligence as to make a mockery of his duty of care with a young passenger, then damn right he should be disciplined (especially if this is the guard with a reputation for such a thing). He shouldn't lose his accountability just because he happens to work in an industry with such a big union!

Couldn't agree more. If I was to make a mistake which resulted in a passenger wrongly prosecuted or paying a second time, I would fully expect to be writing a please explain or 'visiting the headmaster' as a result of relying on an assumption.