Son caught short-boarding and I'd like advice

[LuPi]

Hi. My son (22) has just a standard verification letter from SE (11/02) and I'd love your advice: should we go with a minimum confession or full disclosure?
He was caught short-boarding (bought a ticket one stop before his final destination instead of the full fare). Should he write as per your usual advice (sorry, learned lesson, won't recommit, hopes to pay any out of court settlement, embarrassed etc). and hope to receive a fine.
OR, should he expect them to have already checked his trainline app and see that he's done this 3 times a week since early January 2025 and give full disclosure in his letter?
Essentially I can't work out if they are likely to have checked his app to see this wasn't a one off offence.
Unfortunately, his starting station changes as he often commutes from a mates house closer to London.
It's fair to say that he's definitely learned his lesson - he's terrified (and embarrassed) that this has happened but we don't know what to do next - we have slightly different views on the best way to proceed. Thanks

 

[notmyrealname]

Hi.

Could you show us the letter please? It's much easier for the pros here if they know what Southeastern are asking about. Cover up the name, address and any reference numbers, to keep this anonymous.

In case it's relevant, which app has your son been using?

 

[LuPi]

Here's the letter. He mostly uses Trainline, but sometimes SE app. Nothing consistent - including his starting station and days of travel.

 

[AndroidBango]

It's probably safest to assume that they will check, as a matter of course in these instances, his Trainline and other online booking accounts. On the other hand, you don't need to self-incriminate if they only mention the one incident.

 

[AlterEgo]

Only answer the questions asked. Don’t do their job for them. If they come back and ask about other offences, that’s the time to mention it.

 

[30907]

Only answer the questions asked. Don’t do their job for them. If they come back and ask about other offences, that’s the time to mention it.

....but word your reply carefully so that you do not appear to claim only to have cheated once.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi. My son (22) has just a standard verification letter from SE (11/02) and I'd love your advice: should we go with a minimum confession or full disclosure?
He was caught short-boarding (bought a ticket one stop before his final destination instead of the full fare). Should he write as per your usual advice (sorry, learned lesson, won't recommit, hopes to pay any out of court settlement, embarrassed etc). and hope to receive a fine.
OR, should he expect them to have already checked his trainline app and see that he's done this 3 times a week since early January 2025 and give full disclosure in his letter?
Essentially I can't work out if they are likely to have checked his app to see this wasn't a one off offence.
Unfortunately, his starting station changes as he often commutes from a mates house closer to London.
It's fair to say that he's definitely learned his lesson - he's terrified (and embarrassed) that this has happened but we don't know what to do next - we have slightly different views on the best way to proceed. Thanks

I think you have to assume that they will almost certainly check ticketing records (so prepare for that by trying to list out dates of legit ticket purchases from different origins / destinations vs short fare evasion - list that out for your own records to have to hand in case they ask about it). We see most train companies seeming to do this now because the digital fingerprints are easy to find, and they know that it's rare for them to catch people the first time they evade so chances are they have done it before and this can easily be investigated so they might as well check.

It may be difficult convince them that some shorter journeys are legitimate, given what you say about your son's movements, but as I imagine these locations are not too far from each other I assume the financial consequences of them demanding the highest fare for all of them won't be massively different.

But as at this stage they are not asking about other occasions you can confine the response to this occasion at this stage. They may well raise it in response to your son's reply however.

I would post your son's draft reply here for people to check before you send it, if you think that would be of help.

 

[LuPi]

Thanks. We will write a sorry for this offence letter (lesson learned etc) and make no other claim or denial. If, if, if they do decide to go into his app and follow up in a second stage, does anyone know what the process is then? Most of the threads on here are about first letter and responses and not what happens if the first letter of apology does NOT result in an admin/penalty compensation. Thanks

 

[AlterEgo]

Thanks. We will write a sorry for this offence letter (lesson learned etc) and make no other claim or denial. If, if, if they do decide to go into his app and follow up in a second stage, does anyone know what the process is then? Most of the threads on here are about first letter and responses and not what happens if the first letter of apology does NOT result in an admin/penalty compensation. Thanks

They basically write again, saying "we have seen you have done this before" and either specify an amount they think is claimed, or leave it more open ended.

 

[LuPi]

I think you have to assume that they will almost certainly check ticketing records (so prepare for that by trying to list out dates of legit ticket purchases from different origins / destinations vs short fare evasion - list that out for your own records to have to hand in case they ask about it). We see most train companies seeming to do this now because the digital fingerprints are easy to find, and they know that it's rare for them to catch people the first time they evade so chances are they have done it before and this can easily be investigated so they might as well check.

It may be difficult convince them that some shorter journeys are legitimate, given what you say about your son's movements, but as I imagine these locations are not too far from each other I assume the financial consequences of them demanding the highest fare for all of them won't be massively different.

But as at this stage they are not asking about other occasions you can confine the response to this occasion at this stage. They may well raise it in response to your son's reply however.

I would post your son's draft reply here for people to check before you send it, if you think that would be of help.

Thank you so much - I was thinking along these lines:

I am writing in response to your letter regarding the incident on [Date of Incident].

On that day, I travelled from x in Kent to London. I totally forgot to buy a ticket but only realised this at London Waterloo East. In a panic I bought a ticket there and then (from Waterloo East to Charing Cross) – essentially not paying for my full journey.
It was a stupid, panic induced decision made without thinking. I deeply regret my actions and take full and complete responsibility for them. I recognize that what I did was wrong, and I sincerely apologize for my poor judgment. I didn’t think through the consequences or the seriousness of what I did. I’m truly sorry I did this – this experience has been a wake-up call for me, and I guarantee I will never do this again.

I would be extremely grateful for the opportunity to settle this matter without the need for court action. I am willing to pay the outstanding fare and any reasonable administrative costs incurred by Southeastern in handling this case.

Once again, I sincerely apologize for my actions and deeply regret any inconvenience I have caused. Please
Please let me know how I can proceed in resolving this issue as soon as possible.

End.
I will do as you suggest and get him to list out all his journeys this year, so he has a good list of what he's paid for and what he's evaded in case it's needed. Do you know what will happen if they check his history and come back to him again? I assume that's the time for him to list all his evasions and hope they'll do an out of court settlement? I have to hope that reading this thread will help him decide what to do.

 

[SuspectUsual]

I totally forgot to buy a ticket

my poor judgment

Which is the truth? Not both of them! If you want them to offer an out of court settlement you need to engage and be honest - if (as I think is the case) it was deliberate short faring you don't need to bluntly say that's what happened, but the "poor judgement" type phrase can cover that

The fact that you say he's done this 3 times a week makes the forgetfulness angle incredibly unlikely!!

 

[LuPi]

Which is the truth? Not both of them! If you want them to offer an out of court settlement you need to engage and be honest - if (as I think is the case) it was deliberate short faring you don't need to bluntly say that's what happened, but the "poor judgement" type phrase can cover that

The fact that you say he's done this 3 times a week makes the forgetfulness angle incredibly unlikely!!

Thanks - well spotted. I'll amend. In the first instance we'll write to apologise, ask for out of court etc. If they come back ( which I personally think is likely) and they can see that he's been doing this since Jan, this thread seems to advise then is the time for the full disclosure. I don't agree with what he's done, but as his mum want to help him deal with the consequences sensibly. No-one has yet suggested we go for full, honest disclosure at this stage - rather answer today's letter in the present, and see what happens next.

 

[John R]

Do you know what will happen if they check his history and come back to him again? I assume that's the time for him to list all his evasions and hope they'll do an out of court settlement? I have to hope that reading this thread will help him decide what to do.

They'll either come back and ask him to explain those journeys, at which point he needs to fess up completely, or possibly skip that step and offer a settlement calculating the amount they want for all the journeys that they assume he was doing the same thing. The eventual outcome is the same.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you so much - I was thinking along these lines:

I am writing in response to your letter regarding the incident on [Date of Incident].

On that day, I travelled from x in Kent to London. I totally forgot to buy a ticket but only realised this at London Waterloo East. In a panic I bought a ticket there and then (from Waterloo East to Charing Cross) – essentially not paying for my full journey.
It was a stupid, panic induced decision made without thinking. I deeply regret my actions and take full and complete responsibility for them. I recognize that what I did was wrong, and I sincerely apologize for my poor judgment. I didn’t think through the consequences or the seriousness of what I did. I’m truly sorry I did this – this experience has been a wake-up call for me, and I guarantee I will never do this again.

I would be extremely grateful for the opportunity to settle this matter without the need for court action. I am willing to pay the outstanding fare and any reasonable administrative costs incurred by Southeastern in handling this case.

Once again, I sincerely apologize for my actions and deeply regret any inconvenience I have caused. Please
Please let me know how I can proceed in resolving this issue as soon as possible.

End.
I will do as you suggest and get him to list out all his journeys this year, so he has a good list of what he's paid for and what he's evaded in case it's needed. Do you know what will happen if they check his history and come back to him again? I assume that's the time for him to list all his evasions and hope they'll do an out of court settlement? I have to hope that reading this thread will help him decide what to do.

The problem is your OP implied your son has been deliberatly evading - but this suggests he just forgot to buy a ticket on this occasion. Which was it?

It's best not to lie as lies will come unstuck - admitting you were evading (or simply apologising for not having a valid ticket) will not prevent a settlement offer and will not get suspected as a lie

Essentially the railway want to know
- you understand that it was wrong to travel without the correct ticket bought before boarding
- you will never do it again
- you will pay them the money you owe / have evaded / have not paid by mistake

 

[ikcdab]

I think you need to tell the truth. He didn't forget to buy a ticket, in your first post you said he's been doing it for a while.. So why lie? The problem with lieing is that when they look at his purchase history they will see it's a regular thing. Just tell the truth, just admit to the deliberate shortfareing.

 

[LuPi]

I think you need to tell the truth. He didn't forget to buy a ticket, in your first post you said he's been doing it for a while.. So why lie? The problem with lieing is that when they look at his purchase history they will see it's a regular thing. Just tell the truth, just admit to the deliberate shortfareing.

Hi Thanks. I'll remove the forgot element. I'll suggest he apologizes for this incident and says he's learned. going on advice on this thread, I don't think I'll get him to admit to more than this one incident in this letter, but I will prepare him to expect this to be followed up with an investigation into his app, and to expect a very hefty penalty fine if this happens. If it is taken further - i hope he'll be able can settle without the need for court action. He's been an idiot, and it'll end up costing him (probable me too) more than he saved but he's definitely terrified about the consequences.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi Thanks. I'll remove the forgot element. I'll suggest he apologizes for this incident and says he's learned. going on advice on this thread, I don't think I'll get him to admit to more than this one incident in this letter, but I will prepare him to expect this to be followed up with an investigation into his app, and to expect a very hefty penalty fine if this happens. If it is taken further - i hope he'll be able can settle without the need for court action. He's been an idiot, and it'll end up costing him (probable me too) more than he saved but he's definitely terrified about the consequences.

sounds like he has learned the lesson, which is important and important to convey that to the railway company. It won't be so much a hefty penalty fine that they ask for, but the total of the fares evaded, charged at the highest peak time fare (The 'Anytime' fare) plus an admin fee for them investigating his actions which could be c£150 - so you are correct it will add up.

 

[Same_Promo3006]

Don't forget that it is fairly easy to work out home address to closest station and it doesn't make sense sometimes to travel from station that passengers decide to short buy from.
If he learned a lesson even if it might be an expensive one. Than he won't have to worry about getting other fines.
Glad he has a parent who is willing to help put things right.

 

[LuPi]

Just to update - we/he sent the letter today. As brief as could be, admitting nothing, but not lying in any way. Apologised, guaranteed he's never going to do this again (which I don't think he will and sincerely hope he won't) and we will see what happens. I'll keep you posted. I expect he'll get a letter back with a) a settlement fine/charge OR b) a letter if they see he's done this more than once and asking for explanation OR c) a letter with a fine based on their charges for his multiple offences and a date to pay by. If he's unlucky, he'll get sent a court date straight up. whatever happens, we will keep you posted. Thank you all for your help so far. Being a concerned mum, I really appreciate it.

 

[WesternLancer]

Just to update - we/he sent the letter today. As brief as could be, admitting nothing, but not lying in any way. Apologised, guaranteed he's never going to do this again (which I don't think he will and sincerely hope he won't) and we will see what happens. I'll keep you posted. I expect he'll get a letter back with a) a settlement fine/charge OR b) a letter if they see he's done this more than once and asking for explanation OR c) a letter with a fine based on their charges for his multiple offences and a date to pay by. If he's unlucky, he'll get sent a court date straight up. whatever happens, we will keep you posted. Thank you all for your help so far. Being a concerned mum, I really appreciate it.

Yes. I think you are prepared for the possible next steps but good luck with this.

 

[LuPi]

Hi
We received this letter as a follow up to the his response to SE in which he apologized and asked if he could settle out of court.
I have 2 questions which take the following into account:
a) . We suspect (after reading lots of info on here) that they have gone for the maximum number of days he MIGHT have short-fared. This is a much larger number than the real number of offences.
b) We suspect (after reading a few threads on here) that his salary has been taken into consideration as the number given corresponds almost exactly to one month's salary.
So my questions
1) If he writes in to query how they came to the 'fares outstanding' number, which he wants to question, what response is he likely to get?
2) Is is likely that, if he questions it and provides factual evidence of the real number, is the number ever reduced?

Your collective thoughts on that would be much appreciated.
Letter attached.




Also, lessons we've learned so far that may help future enquiries:
i)these days they seem to almost certainly dig into the trainline/SE app history
ii) He would possibly be in a better (or at least equal) position if he'd decided to write back in the first instance with a full confession with factual evidence of all the times he's short-fared, but it was worth a first letter just in hope that they didn't investigate him.
Lessons he's learned:
i) he's not cleverer than the law
ii) the system is designed to make sure everyone pays their way and that trying to beat it isn't the right thing to do.
iii) he's kind of lucky he was caught now - if he hadn't been he would have kept on offending and eventually the fine would have been far larger and harder to pay.

 

[John R]

I think he would need to provide fairly compelling evidence as to why some of the tickets purchased are not evidence of short faring, but we have seen cases where such evidence is accepted and the amount requested is reduced. We'd probably need to know a little more about what those tickets are (from/to) and why they are bona fide to form a view as to whether it is sensible to do it (and we can act as a "smell test" in advance of any investigator seeing it).

I don't think it is unreasonable to ask for a breakdown of the amount - often that is provided automatically, but the request would have to be very diplomatically worded!

I doubt his salary has influenced the amount - it seems as though settlement amounts are based on a very defined formula based on which journeys they believe the fare dodger has indeed not paid the correct fare. And I'm not sure that fessing up fully up front makes a difference either, for the same reason.

 

[Hadders]

Thanks for updating us.

Southeastern usually do research online ticketing account when investigating cases like this and factor the cost of other journeys they consider invalid into the settlement fee.

Southeastern are saying that they believe the fare has been evaded on 150 occasions - is this a decent estimate of the position?
If it is, then you need to multiply this by the Anytime Single between the stations travelled between in each direction. No credit is given for the invalid tickets purchased.
Then add on a £150 admin fee
Does this come to around £2,953? If it does then Southeastern are unlikely to lower the sum. If it doesn't then it might be worth querying, but do bear in ind that they can withdraw the settlement offer and sent the case to court if they think they're being messed around.

 

[skyhigh]

We suspect (after reading a few threads on here) that his salary has been taken into consideration as the number given corresponds almost exactly to one month's salary.

Unless you told them the salary they have absolutely no way of finding out, so I suspect it's just coincidence.

Income is only taken into consideration when a court fine is imposed, which isn't what this is.

 

[LuPi]

Thanks for updating us.

Southeastern usually do research online ticketing account when investigating cases like this and factor the cost of other journeys they consider invalid into the settlement fee.

Southeastern are saying that they believe the fare has been evaded on 150 occasions - is this a decent estimate of the position?
If it is, then you need to multiply this by the Anytime Single between the stations travelled between in each direction. No credit is given for the invalid tickets purchased.
Then add on a £150 admin fee
Does this come to around £2,953? If it does then Southeastern are unlikely to lower the sum. If it doesn't then it might be worth querying, but do bear in ind that they can withdraw the settlement offer and sent the case to court if they think they're being messed around.

Hi - no. he says its about 78-80 times (I'm about to go through the full back history to add up the days he's actually short-fared to see where it comes to. You mention that he will be charged an anytime single in each direction but he always got a return ticket - does that impact anything? I'll do the maths and get back in touch.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Mar 2025 ==

Unless you told them the salary they have absolutely no way of finding out, so I suspect it's just coincidence.

Income is only taken into consideration when a court fine is imposed, which isn't what this is.

Makes sense - thanks

 

[alholmes]

Hi - no. he says its about 78-80 times (I'm about to go through the full back history to add up the days he's actually short-fared to see where it comes to. You mention that he will be charged an anytime single in each direction but he always got a return ticket - does that impact anything? I'll do the maths and get back in touch.

Is your son’s estimate of 78-80 occasions referring to return trips? That would roughly equate to Southeastern’s estimate of 150 trips, as they will have almost certainly considered single journeys.

 

[Cuthbert]

A return will equate to two standard singles for the journey.

 

[AlterEgo]

Is your son’s estimate of 78-80 occasions referring to return trips? That would roughly equate to Southeastern’s estimate of 150 trips, as they will have almost certainly considered single journeys.

Yes, this is correct - they treat each offence as a single journey.

 

[LuPi]

Is your son’s estimate of 78-80 occasions referring to return trips? That would roughly equate to Southeastern’s estimate of 150 trips, as they will have almost certainly considered single journeys.

Hi - he only short-fared on his journey to work. He always got an off peak day single for his return - correct fee etc. So, in his case he made 78-80 offences, not 150. I'm still adding up the backlog..... it's slow plodding. Once I've added up the number - I'll come back to you and ask your thoughts. I think, at this stage, he'll ask them politely for a breakdown of their working out for his own information, and then see how far off the truth they are before taking another step.
Do you have any suggestions on how best to ask for a breakdown? You said 'sensitively' - which I perhaps means: 'it would be very helpful to understand how you reached the figure of 150 trips and the penalty fine, so I would be grateful if you can send me this information as soon as possible'.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi - he only short-fared on his journey to work. He always got an off peak day single for his return - correct fee etc. So, in his case he made 78-80 offences, not 150. I'm still adding up the backlog..... it's slow plodding. Once I've added up the number - I'll come back to you and ask your thoughts. I think, at this stage, he'll ask them politely for a breakdown of their working out for his own information, and then see how far off the truth they are before taking another step.
Do you have any suggestions on how best to ask for a breakdown? You said 'sensitively' - which I perhaps means: 'it would be very helpful to understand how you reached the figure of 150 trips and the penalty fine, so I would be grateful if you can send me this information as soon as possible'.

Yes, we see on here that if people are co-operating, then they will share their working and reduce the request if they believe that travel being considered as suspicious is in fact not on certain occasions (I suspect it helps if some evidence can be produced to support that but I guess they would ask for it if they want it).

So your suggested wording looks appropriate but you could add for example 'so that I can check this against my own ticket purchasing and travel records'

In terms of the request being sensitive, I'd suggest not being demanding - so 'sending information as soon as possible' is a bit demanding,
instead you could perhaps say

'if you are able to send this, I will check my records as quickly as I can as I am anxious to resolve this matter as quickly as possible' or some such wording

Also don't call it a 'penalty fine' - because that isn't what it is strictly speaking. What they are asking for should be the tickets evaded and the costs they put into investigating your son's evasion. Just call it 'the sum requested'