Some questions about historic and terminated routes

[dtin]

I've seen a few threads on Railforums as a whole recently about historic allocations and diagrams, and it reminded me of historic or terminated services and routes on the UK network. In particular I want to know the years the services ran from and to, the routing and the rolling stock used, and if relevant why they were terminated. The ones I want to find out about are mostly from Southeast England (see below) but if anyone can think of any others then I would be interested to know.

South West Trains

West Croydon to Guildford

Basingstoke and Reading to Brighton (I heard there was also one from London Waterloo)

Brighton to Exeter, Plymouth and Paignton

London Waterloo to Wareham terminators

Southeastern Trains/Connex South Eastern

The Maidstone East to London Victoria hourly stopping services (some were extended to Ashford, Canterbury West and Margate)

Tonbridge and Tunbridge Wells to London Bridge via Redhill and the Brighton Mainline (also some were extended to Maidstone West, Paddock Wood and Strood)

Southern/South Central/Connex South Central

London Bridge and London Victoria to Guildford via West Croydon

London Victoria to Bournemouth via Worthing and Southampton Central (some services originated at Littlehampton, Seaford and Eastbourne)

First North Western

Birmingham New Street to Manchester Piccadilly

Wessex Trains

Portsmouth Harbour to Plymouth and Penzance

 

[StephenHunter]

Anglia Railways had a Norwich to Basingstoke service via the now-Mildmay line. Using 170s.

London Crosslink - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

London Crosslink was a passenger train service operated by Anglia Railways between Norwich and Basingstoke, using the North London Line to bypass central London. Class 170 Turbostar diesel multiple units were used, and the service operated between 22 May 2000 and 28 September 2002, supported by funding from the Strategic Rail Authority through its Rail Passenger Partnership fund.

 

[dtin]

Anglia Railways had a Norwich to Basingstoke service via the now-Mildmay line. Using 170s.

London Crosslink - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

That's a good one, I seem to remember someone mentioning Anglia Railways and Basingstoke on Railforums. Could it get from Woking to Stratford without reversing? Also was it ever double turbostars to form a train of 4-6 coaches or were very few people using the service?

 

[Bevan Price]

Several changes occurred because of privatisation, and changes during sectorisation in preparation for privatisation. DfT (or predecesoors) decided that TOCs were mostly to be confined to their own distinct areas/ service groups, and it was generally a "bad idea" for their services to overlap into other areas. Making travel less convenient for some passengers seems to have been an irrelevance.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Could it get from Woking to Stratford without reversing?

Yes it could. Using the west side of the triangular junction at West Byfleet to join the line to Addlestone, then via Staines and Hounslow and the west side of the triangular junction at Kew Bridge to join the N&SWJR line (now part of the Mildmay Line) at Bollo Lane Junction, just before South Acton.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

You’d be interested in North Western Trains’ Blackpool/Manchester Victoria/Rochdale/Manchester Airport to Euston services.

Waterloo to Manchester via Bristol and Shrewsbury

Beckenham Junction to London Victoria via Balham

I’d be interested to know what happened to BR’s Nottingham to Glasgow services

 

[The exile]

That's a good one, I seem to remember someone mentioning Anglia Railways and Basingstoke on Railforums. Could it get from Woking to Stratford without reversing? Also was it ever double turbostars to form a train of 4-6 coaches or were very few people using the service?

The one occasion I used it round London I was almost on my own. Not a statistically significant sample of course….

 

[Ashley Hill]

Wales and West had a Penzance to Milford Haven service.

 

[StephenHunter]

There was a London to Leeds sleeper service back in the 1960s.

 

[Harvester]

I’d be interested to know what happened to BR’s Nottingham to Glasgow services

The loco hauled Nottingham to Glasgow trains were diverted away from the S&C route from the start of the May 1982 timetable, and ran via the Hope Valley and Preston. This arrangement only lasted for a few years, before the service was withdrawn. IIRC BR did introduce two trains each way between Leeds and Carlisle over the S&C line as a meagre replacement.

 

[Magdalia]

The loco hauled Nottingham to Glasgow trains were diverted away from the S&C route from the start of the May 1982 timetable, and ran via the Hope Valley and Preston. This arrangement only lasted for a few years

This lasted for only one year. In May 1983 the Nottingham-Glasgow was joined up with the Parkeston-Manchester North Country boat train to make a through train Parkeston-Glasgow.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Anglia Railways had a Norwich to Basingstoke service via the now-Mildmay line. Using 170s.

London Crosslink - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Pedant hat on. It's not the Mildmay Line, it is still the North London Line. The Mildmay Line is the name of the service operated by London Overground/Arriva Rail which uses the North London Line.
Same as the Great Western Mainline hasn't been renamed Elizabeth Line! Elizabeth Line is just one of the services which uses the Great Western Mainline

 

[Harvester]

This lasted for only one year. In May 1983 the Nottingham-Glasgow was joined up with the Parkeston-Manchester North Country boat train to make a through train Parkeston-Glasgow.

The 07:27 Nottingham-Glasgow was still running after the start of the May 1983 timetable. I travelled on it late summer 1983!

 

[Magdalia]

The 07:27 Nottingham-Glasgow was still running after the start of the May 1983 timetable. I travelled on it late summer 1983!

Thanks. I had remembered the morning northbound train over the Settle and Carlisle as starting from Leeds, forgetting that it had been revised to start at Nottingham. That happened in May 1977. As you say, it then continued to run via Manchester, and that lasted until May 1987, when it was diverted to Blackpool.

 

[dtin]

You’d be interested in North Western Trains’ Blackpool/Manchester Victoria/Rochdale/Manchester Airport to Euston services.

Waterloo to Manchester via Bristol and Shrewsbury

Beckenham Junction to London Victoria via Balham

I’d be interested to know what happened to BR’s Nottingham to Glasgow services

What operated the Blackpool to Euston route? I know the routes from Euston to Rochdale/Manchester Victoria/Airport were Express Sprinters or EMU (322/3?)

I had actually heard of the London Waterloo to Manchester services, Wales and West also did services from Waterloo to Cardiff, Carmarthen and Milford Haven.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

What operated the Blackpool to Euston route? I know the routes from Euston to Rochdale/Manchester Victoria/Airport were Express Sprinters or EMU (322/3?)

I had actually heard of the London Waterloo to Manchester services, Wales and West also did services from Waterloo to Cardiff, Carmarthen and Milford Haven.

Class 158s, although I believe the class 180s were originally ordered for the service?

 

[JonathanH]

Class 158s, although I believe the class 180s were originally ordered for the service?

North Western Trains were going to have some 3-car 125mph units, not what later became the 5-car 180s as a separate order.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_175

The fleet of 27 sets was ordered from the French train manufacturer Alstom during July 1997 and were constructed between 1999 and 2001 at Washwood Heath, Birmingham. Early plans for some of the fleet to be capable of 125 mph (200 km/h) were in place but subsequently abandoned.

 

[swt_passenger]

I've seen a few threads on Railforums as a whole recently about historic allocations and diagrams, and it reminded me of historic or terminated services and routes on the UK network. In particular I want to know the years the services ran from and to, the routing and the rolling stock used, and if relevant why they were terminated. The ones I want to find out about are mostly from Southeast England (see below) but if anyone can think of any others then I would be interested to know.

South West Trains

1. West Croydon to Guildford

2. Basingstoke and Reading to Brighton (I heard there was also one from London Waterloo)

3. Brighton to Exeter, Plymouth and Paignton

4. London Waterloo to Wareham terminators

1. I don’t remember it happening as it’s out of my area, but it was by late 2003 - when a number of other SRA inspired franchise specification changes occurred.
2. The route section between Cosham and Brighton was transferred to Southern in about 2007, and they introduced an hourly Southampton to Brighton route as a replacement. But many of the am peak flow direction trains towards Basingstoke and Reading had actually run from Portsmouth, not Brighton, and vice versa in the pm peak. They were retained and continued to run much longer, but not including Reading. The one down train from Waterloo ran at stupid o’clock and was basically not part of the main service. The SWT Brightons didn’t run in the hours FGW ran to Brighton either. The Basingstoke to Reading leg was culled to make the path available for freight from Southampton.
3. Ended 2007 or maybe 2008 to provide the stock for the hourly Exeter service following the Axminster redoubling, and to strengthen other services on the main part of the route east of Exeter.
4. Ended 2007 this one was a knock on effect of running 2 tph to Weymouth. Previously most hours had a Brockenhurst to Wareham all stations stopper, but that morphed into a Waterloo to Poole service with long dwells at Southampton and Brockenhurst. Waterloo to Wareham wasn’t a regular all day service as I recall..

 

[JonathanH]

Waterloo to Wareham wasn’t a regular all day service as I recall..

I think Waterloo to Wareham was regular in a few timetable periods, before the 2004 recast.

Summer 2000 had from Waterloo
xx00 Wareham
xx15 Southampton Central
xx30 Weymouth
xx45 Poole (with dwell at Southampton and Brockenhurst)

The Portsmouth via Basingstoke was a stopper in that timetable, running on the opposite half hour to the Basingstoke terminator.

 

[swt_passenger]

I think Waterloo to Wareham was regular in a few timetable periods, before the 2004 recast.

Summer 2000 had from Waterloo
xx00 Wareham
xx15 Southampton Central
xx30 Weymouth
xx45 Poole (with dwell at Southampton and Brockenhurst)

The Portsmouth via Basingstoke was a stopper in that timetable, running on the opposite half hour to the Basingstoke terminator.

Yes, now I remember we had a thread a few years ago about historic BR, NSE, and early SWT timetables, and that had mentioned the specific services terminating at Wareham kept changing. I was thinking about the situation at or around the 2004 changes, at that time I think the 05/09/35/39 pattern from Waterloo was established, with the offpeak 09 diverted via Hedge End. Before 2003 I hardly ever used any of these trains.

 

[JonathanH]

I was thinking about the situation at or around the 2004 changes, at that time I think the 05/09/35/39 pattern from Waterloo was established, with the offpeak 09 diverted via Hedge End.

Yes, the 2004 timetable didn't change everything for the better. Southampton lost the 4tph from Waterloo it had had for a few years up to that point, although some of the xx15 services had been run with 159s.

In particular I want to know the years the services ran from and to, the routing and the rolling stock used, and if relevant why they were terminated.

It is possible to do your own research on running dates using the information at the Network Rail Timetable Archive here https://history.networkrail.co.uk/uncategorized/so_4b13306b-816a-4d77-89ec-630d6beb2680/ or Timetable World here https://timetableworld.com.

 

[Harvester]

There was a London to Leeds sleeper service back in the 1960s.

Checked this purely out of interest. In 1962 it left St Pancras at 23:50, arriving at Leeds City 05:58, after a leisurely run down the MML, possibly still steam hauled. First and second class sleeping accommodation was provided.

There was also a FO late evening ordinary service from St Pancras to Glasgow during the summer timetable in the 1960s. The train ran via the S&C line and was very popular in 1966 and 1967 as it was diagramed for a Holbeck Jubilee from Leeds to Carlisle. It may have avoided Leeds City some summers, as the change to steam has been reported to have taken place alongside Holbeck loco depot in the middle of the night, to avoid a reversal in the station.

 

[Magdalia]

There was a London to Leeds sleeper service back in the 1960s.

Checked this purely out of interest. In 1962 it left St Pancras at 23:50, arriving at Leeds City 05:58, after a leisurely run down the MML, possibly still steam hauled. First and second class sleeping accommodation was provided.

St Pancras had sleeper trains until 1969 when the Waverley route closed. At that time the London-Leeds sleeper transferred from St Pancras to Kings Cross, and continued to run until 1983.

 

[JBuchananGB]

About 12 years ago you could still get a train from Liverpool Street to Lowestoft. Went from Ipswich to Lowestoft via Beccles. Service was discontinued to avoid running a DMU under the wires.

 

[A S Leib]

About 12 years ago you could still get a train from Liverpool Street to Lowestoft. Went from Ipswich to Lowestoft via Beccles. Service was discontinued to avoid running a DMU under the wires.

When's the last time a regular (including summer weekend) passenger service went from Great Yarmouth to beyond Norwich?

 

[contrex]

Beckenham Junction to London Victoria via Balham

A fixture of my youth, headcode 36, operated by SUBs, as was London Bridge to/from London Bridge via Tulse Hill, Crystal Palace, and Forest Hill, London Bridge to/from London Bridge via Tulse Hill, Norbury, Selhurst and Nowrood Junction, London Bridge - Tulse Hill - Streatham Common - Selhurst - Norwood Junction - Crystal Palace - West Norwood, Tulse Hill - London Bridge (Both ways, Sundays only), London Bridge - Mitcham Jn - Sutton - Epsom - Leatherhead, then both Effingham Junction (03) and Horsham (89). Victoria - London Bridge via Balham, Streatham Hill, Leigham Spur, and Tulse Hill, and Victoria - Balham - Crystal Palace, Norwood Jn, W Croydon, Sutton, Wimbledon, Tulse Hill, Herne Hill, Hoborn Viaduct.

 

[30907]

A fixture of my youth, headcode 36 later 86, operated by SUBs,

It was binned to allow Victoria-C Palace-London Br to run all day IIRC. Peak hour trains to Victoria remained for a while, as Birkbeck commuters wanted them.
LBG-CYP-BKJ isn't a natural through route, but nor was LBG-CYP-GTW-BTN that immediately preceded it - but something had to serve Birkbeck

 

[dtin]

I think Waterloo to Wareham was regular in a few timetable periods, before the 2004 recast.

Summer 2000 had from Waterloo
xx00 Wareham
xx15 Southampton Central
xx30 Weymouth
xx45 Poole (with dwell at Southampton and Brockenhurst)

The Portsmouth via Basingstoke was a stopper in that timetable, running on the opposite half hour to the Basingstoke terminator.

Yes, now I remember we had a thread a few years ago about historic BR, NSE, and early SWT timetables, and that had mentioned the specific services terminating at Wareham kept changing. I was thinking about the situation at or around the 2004 changes, at that time I think the 05/09/35/39 pattern from Waterloo was established, with the offpeak 09 diverted via Hedge End. Before 2003 I hardly ever used any of these trains.

Even in the 2004 timetable, there was an early morning Waterloo to Wareham terminator at 0730 and a Wareham to Waterloo at 0720 and at 1641. Was it always a 442 or were Desiros or Slam door stock used as well? Here is the timetable:

Wayback Machine

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Dec 2024 ==

A fixture of my youth, headcode 36, operated by SUBs, as was London Bridge to/from London Bridge via Tulse Hill, Crystal Palace, and Forest Hill, London Bridge to/from London Bridge via Tulse Hill, Norbury, Selhurst and Nowrood Junction, London Bridge - Tulse Hill - Streatham Common - Selhurst - Norwood Junction - Crystal Palace - West Norwood, Tulse Hill - London Bridge (Both ways, Sundays only), London Bridge - Mitcham Jn - Sutton - Epsom - Leatherhead, then both Effingham Junction (03) and Horsham (89). Victoria - London Bridge via Balham, Streatham Hill, Leigham Spur, and Tulse Hill, and Victoria - Balham - Crystal Palace, Norwood Jn, W Croydon, Sutton, Wimbledon, Tulse Hill, Herne Hill, Hoborn Viaduct.

Did this one ever reach post privatization or was it solely in the BR or NSE days?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Dec 2024 ==

About 12 years ago you could still get a train from Liverpool Street to Lowestoft. Went from Ipswich to Lowestoft via Beccles. Service was discontinued to avoid running a DMU under the wires.

I had heard of this but I was under the assumption that it ran from London to Lowestoft without going 'under the wires'. Turbostars was it?
Presumably it ran Liverpool Street to Ipswich via the GEML as the electrics do and then Ipswich to Lowestoft via Beccles? When was it terminated?

 

[30907]

I had heard of this but I was under the assumption that it ran from London to Lowestoft without going 'under the wires'. Turbostars was it?

Yes

Presumably it ran Liverpool Street to Ipswich via the GEML as the electrics do and then Ipswich to Lowestoft via Beccles? When was it terminated?

Can't give you a date, but I recall catching the 1632 LST-PBO via Ipswich after a meeting in London, also a 170, using the through train rule on my Shipley-London return. Between 2002 and 08 when I was doing that run 2-3 times a year.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Victoria - London Bridge via Balham, Streatham Hill, Leigham Spur, and Tulse Hill

How long did this run for? I have only seen this service operated once in my lifetime, when I rode on it in 2002 from London Bridge to Balham. Never saw it again.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Dec 2024 ==

Did this one ever reach post privatization or was it solely in the BR or NSE days?

Yes, Beckenham Junction to Victoria peak services via Balham lasted until about 2007. Maybe 2008. I used to get one to school. 2x455 followed by a 2x319 on a Horsham to Victoria service, complete with Connex Express era lounge seating.